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XSI

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Considering it's america, my guess is something like this:

False address given because the guy sees it coming.
Then either:
Cops go in and shoot someone

Or

People at the false address think they're dealing with a home invasion and open fire on the cops
And the cops shoot back

Did I get it right?
 

MrMe

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Looking at the body cam's small pixel it looks like the guy come out peacefully and then gets shot, I don't know - maybe he put his arm down to close the door by the handle or something? Sounds daft but that guy that got shot in Vegas recently got shot because he reached back to pull his boxers back up.
 

super_slicer

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TBH if I was a cop sent to what I was informed as an armed and dangerous call, you'd be lucky if I didn't blow your ass away for breathing wrong. Because at the end of the day I'M going home.
 

Ninja_Named_Bob

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TBH if I was a cop sent to what I was informed as an armed and dangerous call, you'd be lucky if I didn't blow your ass away for breathing wrong. Because at the end of the day I'M going home.
The government you hate so much made sure that cops couldn't go around shooting whoever because they were too stupid to read the situation.
 

super_slicer

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Sure, the officer's aren't clearly scapegoats or anything like that. Fuck they're homicidal maniacs before they even enter the academy! And then at the academy they use their nights to train to shoot anyone who's not lilly white on sight. Hell if you see a cop using his phone, he's probably checking the latest white supremacy news.
 

Yoshiiki

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Sure, the officer's aren't clearly scapegoats or anything like that. Fuck they're homicidal maniacs before they even enter the academy! And then at the academy they use their nights to train to shoot anyone who's not lilly white on sight. Hell if you see a cop using his phone, he's probably checking the latest white supremacy news.
Doubt it. There may be few bad apples that made it through regulations and screening, but to generalize like that it makes it sound like a cop touched you inappropriately.
And if this was true... It would just be pure chaos and a lot of dead people, enough to call it genocide.
 

Pervy

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I'm never sure if Slicer is just extreme left anti-authoritarian, or over-exaggerating for the lulz. I think it's extreme hiding behind 'lol just trollin' to deflect criticism.

 

Byzantine2014

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Pretty sure it's more love of sarcasm :p

Also slicer, you get the Beaver award for Canadian levels of sarcasm.
 

super_slicer

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I'm an imperialist. An empire where I'm the emperor, mind you.

I believe in extreme liberty for myself, but extreme regulation and rules for companies and the rest of the population.

But the world isn't perfect, so I'm forced to advocate for personal freedom and heavy group along with business regulation.
 

Yoshiiki

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I'm an imperialist. An empire where I'm the emperor, mind you.

I believe in extreme liberty for myself, but extreme regulation and rules for companies and the rest of the population.

But the world isn't perfect, so I'm forced to advocate for personal freedom and heavy group along with business regulation.
 

Ninja_Named_Bob

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R2 was a mistake. R3 is going to ruin what good will is left. Also, you apparently can't multi-quote if one of the posts is on another page.

Also, also, Huma Abedin has apparently been forwarding her emails her husband, Anthony Weiner. Probably why they never got a divorce prior to his imprisonment...

 

MrMe

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Codegeass jumped the shark halfway through season one.

First half, realistic mech battles
Second half, 60 ton robots that dance with the power of magic!

I'm hesitant to watch that studio's recent Patlabor-style anime for that reason.


The government you hate so much made sure that cops couldn't go around shooting whoever because they were too stupid to read the situation.
 

Ninja_Named_Bob

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On the one hand, the cop is giving clear instructions and asserting his authority over the situation. You don't make any unnecessary movements while in custody or otherwise, and especially when a cop makes it clear not once, not twice, but three times that if you don't do exactly as told or make any unnecessary movement, you're likely getting shot. This situation, specifically, the cop was told probably an hour prior that there might be guns and the suspects might be armed. You're not gonna go gallivanting and acting like their friend or putting another officer in unnecessary danger if you've already got control over the situation. Suspect also confirmed he wasn't otherwise incapable of following orders.

On the other hand, the cop was behaving a bit too aggressively and really didn't need to squeeze the trigger for that long. More than two bullets is too much, and he was clearly aiming to kill rather than incapacitate. It also doesn't help that they're using live rounds instead of rubber bullets. I would blame whoever said that live rounds were necessary in this situation, and the guy who put that cop in charge of the team.. That it went to trial, too, shows the oversight committee felt it might have been excessive.
 

XSI

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On the other hand, the cop was behaving a bit too aggressively and really didn't need to squeeze the trigger for that long. More than two bullets is too much, and he was clearly aiming to kill rather than incapacitate. It also doesn't help that they're using live rounds instead of rubber bullets. I would blame whoever said that live rounds were necessary in this situation, and the guy who put that cop in charge of the team.. That it went to trial, too, shows the oversight committee felt it might have been excessive.
Sadly, the reality of guns is that if you're going to shoot them, you're going to shoot to kill. Not only are legs, arms, etc smaller and harder targets, they also have very important arteries that will make a person bleed out and die quickly if they get hit, negating the whole point. Shooting to incapacitate is only reasonably possible in movies, or with dedicated non-lethal weaponry

As for the ammo, we sadly do not have quick ammo switching like in some slightly more futuristic settings. If we had smartlinked guns that could choose nonlethal gel rounds instead of the very lethal rounds that are shot normally, then yeah. That makes sense to choose based on the situation. But if the cops encounter someone on cocaine and several kinds of bath salts then they're going to need those very lethal rounds because the other ones would be shrugged off, and they generally don't have the time to swap out their ammo before shit hits the fan

But with that said, ideally they'd come in a group and bring maybe one guy with a taser for these situations. Tasers aren't amazing and 100% nonlethal either, but at least they're less lethal than a bullet
Also cops with training would help. Aren't US cops massively undertrained?
 

MrMe

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Yes training, like why did he command the guy to crawl to him instead of telling him to keep his hands on his head as he went over and cuffed him?
 

Pervy

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I watched some anime and am 99% certain that the cop should have solved this with a trading card game.
 

Ninja_Named_Bob

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Sadly, the reality of guns is that if you're going to shoot them, you're going to shoot to kill. Not only are legs, arms, etc smaller and harder targets, they also have very important arteries that will make a person bleed out and die quickly if they get hit, negating the whole point. Shooting to incapacitate is only reasonably possible in movies, or with dedicated non-lethal weaponry

As for the ammo, we sadly do not have quick ammo switching like in some slightly more futuristic settings. If we had smartlinked guns that could choose nonlethal gel rounds instead of the very lethal rounds that are shot normally, then yeah. That makes sense to choose based on the situation. But if the cops encounter someone on cocaine and several kinds of bath salts then they're going to need those very lethal rounds because the other ones would be shrugged off, and they generally don't have the time to swap out their ammo before shit hits the fan

But with that said, ideally they'd come in a group and bring maybe one guy with a taser for these situations. Tasers aren't amazing and 100% nonlethal either, but at least they're less lethal than a bullet
Also cops with training would help. Aren't US cops massively undertrained?
I can't really disagree with anything you said here. I did try to present an argument from both sides to be fair about the whole thing, but it really is one of those "no-win" situations, isn't it? Either the cop takes an unnecessary risk and lets the suspect have a couple freebies and potentially gets at least one of his squad killed, or he shoots and takes the guy out and hope you're right and be wrong, instead.

Yes training, like why did he command the guy to crawl to him instead of telling him to keep his hands on his head as he went over and cuffed him?
The suspect is scared and aside, the cop doesn't know what he's capable of. He can only assume based on the information that is available. If the suspect jumps up and takes the cop hostage via a hold of some sort, you've now not only potentially endangered yourself, but your entire squad as well. If someone else is injured or killed because you chose to be lenient, it's on you. The problem with the situation isn't so much him demanding the suspect approach in a certain way, but how trigger-happy and aggressive the cop was. A cop needs to be able to issue commands in a neutral tone and assert authority over a situation, but also not to scare the suspect to the point where they might turn hostile. De-escalation is supposed to be part of their training.

Like you and XSI have noted, however, training is sorrowfully lacking for cops in the US.

I watched some anime and am 99% certain that the cop should have solved this with a trading card game.
Suspect: I play Yahenni and pass.

Cop: I'll drop an Avenger of Zendikar with Doubling Season and Cathar's |Crusade on the board, then Green Sun's Zenith to go into Craterhoof. I'll play Beastmaster's Ascension and go to combat. 400 Saporlings, Crater hoof, and Avenger all with Tramp swinging your way.

Suspect: ...

That, or they'll play Modern and cops will just main Death's Shadow or Affinity.
 

super_slicer

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In what world do you have enough lands to cast Avenger, Doubling Season and Cathar's Crusade, then a Craterhoof without any ramp? I mean holy fuck that's more lands than most decks even have in them!

Also, was kind of waiting for him to shoot the other cop when he couldn't get the keycard to work... XD

Jokes aside, somebody's pointing a gun at you don't fuck around, it's that simple. And a quick FYI, Colt AR-15s are semi-auto... But there's a full auto rifle that's also referred to as an AR-15 so there's a slight chance that the officer decided to fire 5 individual times.
 
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Yoshiiki

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Yes training, like why did he command the guy to crawl to him instead of telling him to keep his hands on his head as he went over and cuffed him?
Because it's so much easier to jump on someone with, let's say, a knife, while crawling. Because it's not like crawling person doesn't have both hands occupied to support some body weight. Also, if someone is crawling, then in case of another party that shows up and decides to shoot, potential suspect won't get killed.
That being said, let me see this video *goes to watch*
And to answer your question: Yeah, let's go over to him, without any knowledge if there isn't extra party in the room he got out of, that can jump out and shoot us.
14:15 - "Are you both drunk?" "No" and "No" which obviously was a lie and already says a lot. Who knows how it would go if they said the truth?
16:43 - I am shocked he didn't shoot him at this very moment... dude put his hands behind his back and he could have pulled a gun out and shoot.
17:00 - See what's going on? Dude for unknown reason put his hand behind his back. Exact same risk like in 16:43, but this time followed with a response.

It's such easy to judge, but just look and listen how the cop acts and to his voice, he is nervous as his own life may be on the line, he gives too much slack and bam, he is dead.
For a viewer, this situation will be much more emotional due to victim sobbing and begging to not shoot him. But this doesn't mean anything, we know it wasn't acting, but that cop at the very moment couldn't have known. He was trained to react to certain types of movements and he did.

As I said before, there are always bad apples in every place, even police force. But judging whole group by actions of few is stupid. Most people that are against cops, either met with such bad apple, were in situation they didn't understand or are just young, emotional and very revolutionary (fight the system!) without understanding on how it all works. By same logic, we should treat today's Germany as 4th Reich and it's citizens as nazis... Which is just pure stupidity.

I am not going to say that this could have been handled better, because every single time AFTER the event we realize it could have been handled better. No shit, Sherlock.
I am also not going to say he did the right thing, because in my personal opinion, he didn't, but... it was his decision and the way he handled this situation. He should be judged solely on that. Judging whole police force over those actions and deciding they are all like that? Ridicules. It may be a case to study and learn from it to tailor appropriate actions for such cases in the future, assuming it can be done without putting police officers under extra risk (Whaaa? They do stuff in a way so they aren't killed? Whaaaaaaaaaat?! I know, fucking surprising, ain't it?).

In the end, this police officer will be judged, he killed a man. I do believe that he may need a longer break from work and some help from a specialist.
Always think what you would do in such case: You are called because you got informed that there is an armed guy, he acts weird, your life is on the line. You don't know if he is reaching for a gun and if he is, you may get killed.
 
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