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Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game


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HentaiWriter

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Patrons should question whether or not Patreon is a viable method of funding a English H-project, with each failed project, It is becoming increasing clear that the answer is no.
If we go with this, then no platform is viable. Kickstarter has had much higher failure rates, and actual "funded by companies/investors at mainstream AAA companies" has even higher failure rates.

As many people have said, Patreon isn't the problem. It's the people making the games. There are many English H-projects with solid weekly/monthly updates and progress with clear direction and management. Some of them are popular, some of them are not so well known unfortunately.

That said, I do agree with you in that (like I said above) he should have been more open with his userbase, should have posted more often and should have released demos much earlier, because the people backing your game do deserve to get tangible proof often/in actual gameplay demos. Marketing and PR is a huge part of game development when done this way because without it being properly done, people only have speculation to go off of, and that usually leads to bad impressions.
 

Serifyn

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If we go with this, then no platform is viable. Kickstarter has had much higher failure rates, and actual "funded by companies/investors at mainstream AAA companies" has even higher failure rates.

As many people have said, Patreon isn't the problem. It's the people making the games. There are many English H-projects with solid weekly/monthly updates and progress with clear direction and management. Some of them are popular, some of them are not so well known unfortunately.

That said, I do agree with you in that (like I said above) he should have been more open with his userbase, should have posted more often and should have released demos much earlier, because the people backing your game do deserve to get tangible proof often/in actual gameplay demos. Marketing and PR is a huge part of game development when done this way because without it being properly done, people only have speculation to go off of, and that usually leads to bad impressions.
As the monthly income goes up, the expectations go up as well. Divine Arms had been receiving money from Patrons for nearly 2 years and they barely have anything to show for it, it's almost as if people had been paying for his guys salary for the past two years, now, the project seems as though it will never be completed.

I don't know what the answer is, like i said before, there have been a few instances where Patreon has been a success but these are usually few and far between. Some developers don't even use Patreon, they release they product and people buy it, although i have to imagine that they are taking a tremendous risk in doing so. The only fair way to approach crowdfunding as a Patron is to see it as paying for a service, that is paying to see new content every month, in that vein i would resist the urge to make major overhauls of any systems displayed in demos, if patrons are happy to pay many thousands of dollars for the potential of a game that a demo offers they don't need to be blown away by a new system, people paying for Patron are hoping to see new (H related) content frequently, if they don't see it every so often, they (rightly) start to wonder what the hell they are paying for.

Obviously you can choose to develop your game however you want, but i think it is important to understand that when you decide to finish one project, it means you can start a new one afterwards. If you have a project that goes on for years on end with no real end and nothing being developed but game systems like you are a AAA game, people will be less willing to fund the next big game because the timetable for things getting done has been established.

TLDR: Show us the smut in a timely manner and we'll continue to pay you.
 

Assc0bar

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Main problem is not really managment. Its complete lack of scaling and modular structure in some projects.
Project should be made in such a way that small portions or content can easily be added.
Assign few different people to each minor part.
That way on road to some kind of major goal you will always have few minor milestones.
So even if you're fucked somewhere, you always showing some progress - on hentai part, or in game world part, or even just minor stuff like equipment.
So lack of managment or very bad luck or some kind of IRL stuff leads not for whole project falling apart, but only to not-providing-stuff for specific module.
Sadly quite a few devs prefer to jump right into BIG goal, after getting enough support. This "let's go big" thing is not always good.
Especially if you go 2 people on large-workload project.
 

D187Bot

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Initial demo came out 2 years ago and still hasn't gotten much done with a shit ton of money, why am I not surprised...
 

jk103

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If we go with this, then no platform is viable. Kickstarter has had much higher failure rates, and actual "funded by companies/investors at mainstream AAA companies" has even higher failure rates.

As many people have said, Patreon isn't the problem. It's the people making the games. There are many English H-projects with solid weekly/monthly updates and progress with clear direction and management. Some of them are popular, some of them are not so well known unfortunately.

That said, I do agree with you in that (like I said above) he should have been more open with his userbase, should have posted more often and should have released demos much earlier, because the people backing your game do deserve to get tangible proof often/in actual gameplay demos. Marketing and PR is a huge part of game development when done this way because without it being properly done, people only have speculation to go off of, and that usually leads to bad impressions.
The fact that projects fail isn't what bothers me. Game development is hard, sometimes people fail. It's a known risk. The difference is, with Kickstarter, when a developer is acting in bad faith and makes no meaningful attempt to meet their promises, accomplish their stated goals, or are actively deceiving their backers, they can be held accountable via lawsuit. Patreon devs have found a loophole where you're "supporting the artists", not funding their projects, so they have no obligation to do anything at all. They can keep collecting paychecks for as long as they can keep stringing suckers along.
 

HentaiWriter

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they can be held accountable via lawsuit.
This very rarely happens, and is even rarer a success. I looked around and found around 10 total cases in the entire history of the site, and they were for monster projects that were 10x the size of any porn game patreon, usually bringing in millions of dollars if not tens of millions minimum.

I do agree with you though that it would be nice if there was some sort of accountability thing like "if you don't post ANY content for over a month without a reason" or "if you don't give them something tangible at least every 2 months" then there should be some sort of a warning system, and then if enough warnings are gotten, the Patreon is paused and all funds stopped until progress actually resumes tangibly.



 

Pervy

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Problem isn't the developers.. well.. it is, yes, but, hear me out, the real problem is consumers enabling them. Think about it: all of these inactive patreon accounts would disappear nearly overnight if people stopped pumping money into them. If a developer doesn't give updates or at the very least news on their work on a bi-weekly to monthly rate, why support them? Even now the discussion on this topic burries more actively updated yet smaller projects, including my own under the forum-posts. :p

There is quite a lot of projects with regular updates, you just have to look for them rather than get drawn in by big flashy promises of clearly impossible to accomplish programming goals. I understand that it's hard for someone without some programming know how to tell ambition from impossible promises, but a good guideline is looking at whats already out there and asking yourself if what the creator promises is magnitudes more complicated than anything you've seen, exspecially from a single developer. Example, just looking at this games menu screen with all the selections promises not days but weeks of rigorous programming and AI testing as a full time job for a single developer and thats assuming you got all the sprite-art ready to go, with 0% of that being linked to any actual lewdities, just pure gamebuilding. And I'm further assuming someone with the skill, experience and tenacity to power through these things is doing this.

Bottom line: If you want progress stop supporting those that deliver none, no matter how promising a project might sound in theory. That's what'll stop these things.
 
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hugo77

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1. I saw it coming a mile away, there are my posts in this thread from like half a year ago discussing this very issue - this game in particular and Patreon shady business model in general.
2. People are idiots. Why would anyone donate money to a random stranger on his word alone? Personally i support only those creators who release more or less regular updates. If they charge monthly then they better release something monthly as well, 1 release per 2 months is the worst case scenario i can tolerate and that only applies to trustworthy devs like Hreinn Games.
3. "you're supporting the artist not the project" - No! Thats just a bullshit excuse.
 

Polul

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I'm getting Duke Nukem Forever flashbacks. That game's development should be mandatory reading for any developer. This project better start getting small monthly releases and fast if there is to be any hope of this ever getting done. The 2015 demo seemed to contain a working engine, wasn't the original plan to use the patreon to produce the missing content in about six months? Fallback to that and get the monthly demos going! And the patreons need to start cancelling their pledges as soon as the deadlines get missed. The dev seems capable, he just needs to get whipped into shape.

Your support will feed 5 Humans, 3 dogs, 3 rabbits and a hamster.
Now 5 Humans, 7 Dogs, 6 Rabbits, 2 Guinea pigs, a hedgehog and a sugar glider. RIP Hammy.


Say what?! Is the dev running a zoo?
 

Buziol

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The fact that projects fail isn't what bothers me. Game development is hard, sometimes people fail. It's a known risk. The difference is, with Kickstarter, when a developer is acting in bad faith and makes no meaningful attempt to meet their promises, accomplish their stated goals, or are actively deceiving their backers, they can be held accountable via lawsuit. Patreon devs have found a loophole where you're "supporting the artists", not funding their projects, so they have no obligation to do anything at all. They can keep collecting paychecks for as long as they can keep stringing suckers along.
Bravo! Someone finally said it! The main problem with Patreon is exactly that! People there can't be held accountable for their decisions and mismanagement. Normally, financial mismanagement(in all forms) is a good reason to take things to court. Also, in case of Kickstarter, money is taken AFTER the project is finished so no one is going to just "sit, relax and let the money flow" while they do jackshit. Even bigger developing teams are happy with that form of funding as it's much more predictable. Of course, the entry restrictions there make it really hard for the h-game dev(rules) and small devs(hard to gather enough support during the campaign) in general so Kickstarter itself is not a solution to our problems.
 
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HentaiWriter

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Also, in case of Kickstarter, money is taken AFTER the project is finished so no one is going to just "sit, relax and let the money flow" while they do jackshit.
Kickstarter hands over the money from backers once they've met funding after the 30 or so days have passed since the start of the campaign. "Sitting, relaxing and letting the money flow" is exactly what quite a few Kickstarters do because of this.
 

Buziol

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Problem isn't the developers.. well.. it is, yes, but, hear me out, the real problem is consumers enabling them. Think about it: all of these inactive patreon accounts would disappear nearly overnight if people stopped pumping money into them.
It would be nice if not the fact that many people tend to think that "they're good". Looking at the comments on Patreon, I couldn't see his fans. All I saw were people that were tricked into supporting this guy as a charity. Half of his posts on Patreon are filled with RL crap that no one should care about and no one should know. "Look, I failed to deliver 'cause I had a birthday party yesterday". Or "one my my many pets is sick, skipping work for few days". The response? "Take your time, have fun, blahblahblah...". I'm sorry but is this what people should be paying for? Excuses? Half of those posts should stay private, while the second half should be on his blog, that he seems to have forgotten about. It's just sad that this guy is doing this kind of bullshit, even if there are no bad intentions behind it.
Kickstarter hands over the money from backers once they've met funding after the 30 or so days have passed since the start of the campaign. "Sitting, relaxing and letting the money flow" is exactly what quite a few Kickstarters do because of this.
Well, this might work in some countries or states but it mostly depends on how persistent are the people that were cheated. In the EU it's rather hard to do and Kickstarter is one of those companies that are scared of the potential legal backlash. Also, the screening process alone is enough to filter out some of those "wanna-be a king fast and easy way". That's a double-edged sword so that's why I don't count on Kickstarter all that much. The potential solution would be to divide projects into smaller units with independent backing but it would require some form of mental gymnastics to handle it well.
 
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jk103

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Kickstarter is still a single lump sum at the beginning of a project, right? Whether the project goes tits up or not, you're still only losing a single fixed payment, presumably an amount you felt was appropriate to the project. There's not the same "one more month" sunk cost psychology going on to lure people into making payments over and over for years on end.

I think Patreon is a overall a net benefit to the H-game community, but there's got to be SOME way to hold developers accountable when they aren't holding up their end of the bargain.
 

CountMoxi

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Problem isn't the developers.. well.. it is, yes, but, hear me out, the real problem is consumers enabling them. Think about it: all of these inactive patreon accounts would disappear nearly overnight if people stopped pumping money into them.
Actually, I think this is only part of a larger problem. There have been several Patreon projects that have ended up this way because people allow them too and the system doesn't discourage this behavior from the project owner or help patrons point out inactive owners. But I think the real problem, which I think has been said before, is that there is no accountability for the project owner to deliver a completed project, and I think that this is due to a lack of communication amongst the project's community, and the way Patreon's system encourages "continual" development.

I don't have strong evidence for this claim, but I'm going to assume that a lot of people that support projects don't actively check them that often, especially if they are only pledging $1 - $5 and are not in a position where they might need to be all that aware of their financial spending. I think that this can lead to either: 1.) people forgetting that they're even supporting a project, 2.) people only checking in when big changes or updates happen, if this never occurs it could lead to situation 1, or 3.) people assuming that the lack of communication is just the project owner working hard on the next release, and continues supporting hoping that the project is going well. So in other words, Patreon relies on the patrons themselves checking up on the project owners to see how the project is going and it doesn't punish owners for being silent or not making any posts for an extended period of time ( let's say 2 months if their project is taking in money). I think if patron sent an email or something similar to the emails when owners make updates stating "xxxxxx hasn't posted anything in x weeks/months... Get in touch and ask them what's up? ( go to community tab)" could go a long way of patrons checking in on owners and seeing if the investment is worth it. But in order for this to work for all patrons, there would need to be some way for patrons to discuss the project with other patrons and the owner in an easy way. discord works, but isn't mandatory, and I would recommend a chat board or something, but spam and hateful comments could be an issue which would require unbiased mods which is too large an undertaking. Maybe something like Facebook where it shows stats for the project such as: "This Patreon responds to messages on average of 10 minutes" or " This Patreon averages 3 posts per month" at the top of the page so new potential/ previous patrons can see how reliable they are. Really it just comes down to a lack on communication the system requires for an owner to run a project and relies on the patrons to hold the owner responsible to results with very limited information and communication. It also doesn't help that Patreon forces you to be a patron if you want to see any NSFW post the project owner makes on their patreon. Public posts with NSWF content is forbidden due to Patreon's guidelines and plays more into patrons being left in the dark on the project.

I also personally think that the way Patreon os set up, it turns good devs into bad devs. In other words it doesn't reward good project habits , but instead rewards bad habits. If you pitch a project and see money flow in, as a dev, you're tempted to increase the scale of the project in accordance to the money you receive. We see this all the time with Kickstarter projects even in "professional indie" development titles like Mighty No. 9 where after the money comes in, the devs make bigger promises on what the game will be. This in turn drives hype amongst the patrons and more money flows in, feeding into the cycle of increased scope. Rarely are game documents made that limits the scope of the project, so devs are tempted to add bell and whistles the game might not even need whenever they feel inspired since they feel like there are no restrictions. This is also doubly bad because since there isn't a game doc the patrons have access to, they never really know when projects are close to being done or not, which prevents them on holding the dev responsible to what they previously scoped the game at. Basically, Patroen on is set up so the dev basically has an infinite budget once they get a good amount of money going as long as they keep their patrons and there game is "in development". Then to make matters worse, the dev that increased the scope of the game is almost certain to reach burnout when they either realize A.) The additions are causing a lot more problems than they thought. B.) If they increased the team size, they now have a host of other team management problems to make sure they stay on top of. Or C.) Since the game wasn't restrained to certain requirements, smaller accomplishments like "fixed a bug with text displaying incorrectly" don't feel as significant as "finished the first h-scene!" and the dev feels like they aren't doing enough work. So they end up overextending themselves trying to get more done, and eventually get burnt out when they lose inspiration on the idea. Long story short, the project can stall due to unforeseen problems from the project that either stem from the devs lack of experience of making projects on this scale, not creating restraints for the game via a game document or something similar, or from their lack of proper project management in general.

The BIGGEST ISSUE though is what happens when a dev reaches burnout or a project stalls in Patreon's system. What the dev SHOULD do is state to his patrons that the project isn't going smoothly or that they are running into problems and either ask for help from the community, discuss solutions with their patrons, or even stop taking in money while they sort things out to maintain trust with their patrons if needed. Even if they lose patrons in the short term, talking with their patrons and finding solutions to these problems will both help by preventing mistakes like this from happening in future projects and get them more patrons when they are a more competent dev. However, the way patreon is set up, there is no downside to letting a project stall a bit, and the doing one of the following: A.) cut communication with people for an extended period of time while taking money, but then come back with a small update saying that "I'm working, bigger things on the horizon!" even though the amount of time to make said update doesn't match the work output. Do this indefinitely. B.) State that a demo or update is on the horizon, and basically push it back continuously, all the while drip feeding content so they can claim more work is being "done" in the background. Taking money in during the entire process. Or C.) State that "I need to go back and redo previous assets since I've grown as a dev and want this game to be the best it can be", instead of focusing on making new content and delivering a final product in a timely manner.This will usually end up drastically increasing development time and can be done indefinitely. To summarize, instead of developing good project management habits, Patroen's system rewards decisions that extend development time, rather than focus on delivering a final product. This is what I personally think leads to Patreon stories like this and Breeding Season as there is no proper incentive to deliver a product, rather your encouraged to be in a state of continually developing a product and abuse the fact that there is a large gap of communication between you and your audience if you want there to be one.

Now I don't want to state that this is all the devs fault because making games is hard, project management is hard, team management is hard, following Patreon guidelines and working accordance to laws where you live is hard, staying motivated is hard, marketing your project and keeping clients informed is hard, and trying to do all of it at once full or part time and juggling life problems is going to be REALLY hard. Devs also aren't machines so there should be some room for mistakes, breaks, and time off for tragedies or real life stuff. That's why I have a lot of respect for consistant Patreons that do surveys, have active devs that talk to their patrons, try to be as open as possible with their project, and have discord communities so their patrons can discuss with each other and them. But rarely are these actions rewarded or encouraged by both Patroen and their respective communities. I think actions like these should be more rewarded from devs and could be another "Patreon stat" that's displayed at the top of the page like I mentioned before. Also, it's hard to really find the root of the problem since Patreon supports multiple types of creators so the argument "it's used as a tip jar" or "you're supporting the artist, not the product" can work in some situations, but definitely not in others. I don't personally have any contact with Patreon, but I don't we will see any major changes with how things are ran any time soon. I think the best thing we can do right now, is try to increase communication on sites like ULMF and other forums and positively contribute to discussions like these and try to hold devs accountable to creating a finished product and being more transparent with the affairs of their game.

TL;DR Patroen's system can have a huge gap in communication if the project owner wants there to be one. Especially since Patroen forces you to be a patron in order to see any NSFW posts a creator makes. And patrons that aren't savvy on game development can be abused through this lack of information and communication from a dev and other patrons as there are several ways devs can stall out the project with no real consequence since proper project management handling is not rewarded or enforced in any way, while they rake in the money. Sorry for the novel lol


 
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Buziol

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Careful. If you do that, then almost every patreon here gets shut down.
You want to tell us that most of the patreon projects are nothing more than a simple cash-grabs? It's absolutely haram ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I don't have strong evidence for this claim, but I'm going to assume that a lot of people that support projects don't actively check them that often, especially if they are only pledging $1 - $5 and are not in a position where they might need to be all that aware of their financial spending.
Hmmm, an interesting text. A good read I should say.

For me spending even 1$ without a good reason is rather unthinkable. I always wondered how's it feels like, being irresponsible. Guess I have to thank my mother for that kind of upbringing and living in a country where we earn 4-5 times less than our german neighbours while paying the same price(if not more) for almost everything , often of much lower quality.
 
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Noble 6

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You want to tell us that most of the patreon projects are nothing more than a simple cash-grabs? It's absolutely haram ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Don't you get it yet, friend? The purpose of patreons is to get paid monthly income just so you can go onto forums and defend the practice of raking in monthly income instead of working on the game you're being paid to make.
Then you go and make three more patreons and do the same thing.
 

Sire Loser

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He posted another update. most of it is about refunds and such. Chris will finish some animations and one boss. ViperV also stated that he will no longer make porn games, just normal ones.
 
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