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How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and others

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    [Other] How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and others

    I love the works that I'm seeing on Patreon regarding english games. However, I wish to write some thoughts and use games like Kingdom of Deception to describe what I think would take corruption games to the next level of realism and enjoyment.

    What I believe that more creators should do is write with a more invested mindset into the characters you're creating. In the face of terror and new realms of depravity, how your characters act should be natural: just like how you would act if you were in their position.

    Take KoD by the wonderful Sierra Lee and Nomo. Sabia is a general. Even more, she is a woman general who has worked her way up the ranks with her skills, charisma, intellect, and strength. She's family with powerful politicians in her kingdom, a great and independent woman. So why does she fall so easily to jerking off lowly orcs for 8 gold coins?

    What I'm trying to say, is breaking such a strong mind cannot be so simple. It should not be so fast. It should adapt a more Akubar style approach where the willingness is elastic. Where if you push too far, the girl will snap. You have to play your cards just right for them to bend further into depravity.

    Let's take the beginning scene of KoD to when she starts working at the pleasure tents to show what I mean. When the great Sabia is surrounded by orcs, she does not beg (which I totally love thank you for writing that option and her refusal). But when she's on the ground, at the mercy of lowly orcs, she should NOT be yelping and crying like a little bitch. Instead, she should either (try her best not to make any noise to show her captives that she's afraid/intimidated/turned on) or (yell insults at them, and tries to fight back consistently). In terms of gameplay, when she physically fights back, the rocs should hit her back, as they should. Now I'm not asking for gore, or fucked up illustrations, but at least be a little bit considerate into how real savages act. She should bite the cock of the orc that fucks her mouth, and the orc will hit her more. That's the Sabia that is fun to see. This is rarely done in any games, this resilience of the mind, this realistic fight for survival that real people (Men and Women) will do in their darkest hours.

    When she wakes up in her tent, she rightly sweeps the floors or whatever. But she should NOT be inclined to go suck some dicks because they make more money. Sabia is a royal? blood, proud general. She should at least be paid 2000 gold to do that kind of stuff. No, she won't do it. (at least not yet anyway, or not by FREE WILL). Some great scenes that you can write with this kind of attitude is that she goes demanding for that much money, and the orcs have their way with her. She then injures one, and gets her ass kicked. Then, she won't go back to the tents until she's forced to (isn't that a more realistic reaction?).

    Now that's all in terms of writing. What you can do in terms of gameplay and storytelling is to have a sanity meter. You stretch her too much, she becomes a coward and won't take risks. She won't do the dirty willingly, and she's submissive. Another words, shes broken. Let's say there's 4 levels of sanity. The highest being resilient, middle being stable, and low being breaking. If you go beyond breaking, she's broken. She regenerates sanity points by doing scenes that she already experienced (such as HJ and BJs). She loses points, though not as much, when she does double BJ. She loses more points when she gets spit roasted. She completely flat out breaks when she's gang raped.

    Thing is, as a developer, I know that the kind of immersion we're talking about are simple if else statements. The hardest part (imo) about game development is the art, music, and world building. The kind of changes I'm proposing to all games (not just KoD) would require a considerably large amount of writing the different dialog. But that's only writing. The assets can be reused. The scenes can be reused. Through simple words, maybe changing a paragraph or two depending on her sanity, can drastically change game immersion. I don't know how hard it is to write logic in renpy, but I don't think it's that hard seeing that games like Teacher's Pet do it really well.

    Anyway, I hope you all can implement some of this kind of...personal touches to games. Don't isolate yourself from the experience of your characters. Think, how would I personally feel if I was a great general of x kingdom getting gang raped by orcs. How would I personally feel, if I, the great general, was thinking about sucking some dicks for 8 gold rather than 1 gold. A little personal immersion can make your games so much better.

    #2
    Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

    I feel the need to interject. TO begin with K.O.D isn't exactly a corruption game it does have a corruption element.

    As for your first arguement Sabia does do her best to remind cool and calm when attacked by the orcs, however the simple is she is severely out numbered and trying to do everything in her power to survive.

    That same trying to survive element is a part of her choices depending on what you chose to have her do. She knows she doesn't have the power or authority to do the things she wants to do. She's not broken but she's realistically trying to survive which makes her do things that she normally wouldn't do.

    I think K.O.D is brilliant as is and I look forward in the directionn it shall go

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      #3
      Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

      the op should have posted on the K.o.d thread since 99% of the subject is that game, and as said above, it's not even a game where corruption is the main fetish...

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        #4
        Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

        Yeah this isn't open ended at all, it's a specific reference to how one game could/should improve.

        With that said, I do think authors in corruption games focus too much on the changing personality, and not enough on who the character is at the start of the game.

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          #5
          Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

          Thanks for the feedback, but you seem to misunderstand Sabia as a character and where we are going with Kingdom of Deception. She really isnt a typical damsel in distress that gets shy and flustered like the typical maidens in hentai games. And while she is a noble as you said, she also spend her life as a foot soldier and not in luxury. So she is a lot stronger and more determined than the women you seem to think of.

          As for the corruption, as pointed above, while Sabia's character allows for different paths where she sees using her body worthy to achieve her goals faster, or where she would prefer being more dominant sexually, or a completely sexless route, we are not interesting in a path with a broken cock lusting husk of an mc to show all we have planned in the future of the KoD universe.

          So while we do have a lot planned in sexual content, Sabia will always stay worthy of respect and the things she does with her body, will matter or result in her achieving her goals one way or another.

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            #6
            Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

            Does anyone else think the majority of games these days treat rape too tamely?

            It's meant to be a pretty horrible devastating thing to happen to a woman, yet most recent games depict rape as causing the woman to moan like a cheap whore who gets off on being violated and used.

            When the chick goes "Oh, why does does this feel soooo good, oooh" it kinda ruins the illusion.
            Especially as most corruption games start off with this weak personality.
            Despair Labyrinth is one of the few games that does pure maidens right. (its a real shame Takimaru stopped dev on it)


            Its especially weird in games like DiCK where if you loose you get <s>raped</s> surprise sexed and if you win you... have the option to sex the attacker.
            Thats not a rape element, thats a fight for who gets to go on top.
            Last edited by MrMe; 14th October 2017, 10:22.
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              #7
              Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

              Originally posted by Nomo View Post
              Sabia will always stay worthy of respect and the things she does with her body, will matter or result in her achieving her goals one way or another.
              Well, that's a bummer. Was hoping for at least some kind of mind break route. Oh well. Maybe in the next game.

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                #8
                Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

                Originally posted by ponyguy3000 View Post
                Well, that's a bummer. Was hoping for at least some kind of mind break route. Oh well. Maybe in the next game.
                It's the case in the game overs. But not in the main story.

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                  #9
                  Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

                  Originally posted by Keyen View Post
                  It's the case in the game overs. But not in the main story.
                  Yeah, but the game overs aren't routes. I love them. They're great. But I was hoping that the more submissive I played and the more I whored her out I'd get to affect her personality more. Get her to like it more and eventually stray into some kind of sex slave path. Where Sabia is still in it for revenge, but now she loves getting violated randomly in the middle of the camp and will settle for being Tekrok's pet once it's all over. Kind of like Riven.

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                    #10
                    Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

                    Originally posted by MrMe View Post
                    Does anyone else think the majority of games these days treat rape too tamely?

                    It's meant to be a pretty horrible devastating thing to happen to a woman, yet most recent games depict rape as causing the woman to moan like a cheap whore who gets off on being violated and used.
                    I'm no hentai historian, but isn't this an old trope? It's what happens when you aim to eroticise rape, I think. You try to remove the really ugly parts. It's kind of how the Looney Tunes can be violent, but still don't show any blood or gore, you know?

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                      #11
                      Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

                      pretty long read/unusual meta thread but I agree with your core message(if I understood).

                      It's about competent writing to make the characters feel believable, and gradual storytelling to make the corruption feel plausible.
                      A proper corruption game has notable time spent on foreshadowing and character buildup. ScaleGarden is a nice example.

                      You see bad/lazy writing cliches everywhere in H though, ie. the thousands of bad NTR works nowadays. Because the adult scene is mostly doujin/indie, can't be helped I guess.
                      Last edited by uguu123; 14th October 2017, 11:08.

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                        #12
                        Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

                        I took the OP to be a general topic, with KoD as an example.

                        I didn't play KoD, but different people have different levels of acceptance for their erotica. I have a similar viewpoint as the OP on the level of immersion I look for as a player. But at the same time, I do get frustrated when things get as complicated and unwieldy as real world analogues (e.g. there are some epic prudes out there; I really don't want to have to spend a full day playing a game just for 1 H scene - normally that's the amount of effort you'd put into getting actual sex xD).

                        You can't please them all. A dev can only pick and choose one's targeted audience, be it eroticized with stupid amounts of poetic licence or obsessively programmed to be an eligible real-life simulation, or a spectrum between the extremes.
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                          #13
                          Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

                          Originally posted by Cleanfeel View Post
                          Thing is, as a developer, I know that the kind of immersion we're talking about are simple if else statements. The hardest part (imo) about game development is the art, music, and world building. The kind of changes I'm proposing to all games (not just KoD) would require a considerably large amount of writing the different dialog. But that's only writing. The assets can be reused. The scenes can be reused. Through simple words, maybe changing a paragraph or two depending on her sanity, can drastically change game immersion. I don't know how hard it is to write logic in renpy, but I don't think it's that hard seeing that games like Teacher's Pet do it really well.
                          The overall sentiment of this paragraph is something I would strongly disagree with. Immersion isn't something that can be boiled down to simple if/else statements for a start. And there is a kind of absolute arrogance to saying "that's only writing" - the implication being that you do not consider writing to be an asset in a game. If we're talking immersion, writing is critical.

                          I mean, take my VPM translation. Is my English version more immersive for an English player than the Japanese version? Yes - and the only thing that's changed is the writing. And to be quite blunt, nothing much happens in most of the H-scenes; I could've replaced the text in the H-scenes with just simple statements like "Brigit got fucked by tentacles. Brigit came because she was fucked.", which is still writing, but not immersive.

                          And you even state that it would be a "considerably large" amount of writing. Well, to do writing well, it takes time! When do you want the H-game - in a reasonable amount of time, or far, far into the future?

                          If you're going to try and do an immersive game, the programming and the writing are as much assets as the art, music and world building. You've come across as someone who fundamentally does not understand game development - and perhaps as someone who hasn't really considered how one might actually plan a large scale project such as a game.
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                            #14
                            Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

                            I fast read through all of this, so I may have skipped thing or two, sorry if repeating something.
                            ITT:
                            The devil is in the detail.
                            There are people that love seeing even small change in game as an effect of their actions. Girl is now corrupted? She speaks differently, even with NPCs she spoke before. She acts differently based on her corruption during scenes. Things like that.
                            But it's also more work for the devs and mostly what I see (mainly in Japanese games that were translated, as I can't read Japanese) is that corruption bar is just simplified to: [x] value to unlock scene.
                            But, as someone stated here: You can't please all people.
                            But you can simplify everything and put as many kinks as possible to get as many people as you can. Pure money making thinking.

                            All in all, I agree that corruption based games could be something much, much better if we would try going deeper into MC's mind
                            Last edited by Yoshiiki; 14th October 2017, 14:04.
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                              #15
                              Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

                              Originally posted by ponyguy3000 View Post
                              Well, that's a bummer. Was hoping for at least some kind of mind break route. Oh well. Maybe in the next game.
                              Yea, it sucks. I thought the whole idea of branching paths was so we can end up with submissive, whore Sabia if our choices led to it.
                              Last edited by hugo77; 14th October 2017, 15:43.

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