How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and others

[habisain]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

The time it takes for me to write 4 variations of a scene based on previous actions of a character that I've stored on 4 different variables in my game, vs making the illustrations, recording/finding sound clips, and maybe animation if we're talking about that kind of game, is comparatively low. It takes perhaps 1-2 hours to write based off of the existing product specification ( the draft that you do when you first plan out your game), vs it can take days to do well done drawings.

So yes, that's the difference. Maybe English isn't your first language, but it sure as hell doesn't take me a day to write a few paragraphs. The iterations and "nods" to past events don't even need to be essays. They can be done as simple as 3 sentences to add immersion. To make the player feel like that their actions matter, that the game is not a sequence of scenes, but rather one big story about your character.

I'm not aware of your VPM translation, but your work is not what I'm talking about. All you did was reskin the existing scene without adding logic. I'm talking about storing past events, having a mechanic like Akubar to store "memories" of what's unprecedented to the MC in order to add immersion. Such as writing something like "the last time the orcs beat me until I passed out when I bit one of them". But it acts that much more immersion, and divulges more about the MC's train of thought.

I only used my VPM translation as an example of where only changing the writing improves immersion. As I said, my main concern of what you're saying is that you don't think writing or programming is much of an asset in comparison to "images/music/world building", and as far as I can tell the reason is simply because you believe that you (and hence anyone) can do these tasks.

What you seem to be saying is that you can boil down extra immersion to a few extra logic conditionals and some extra lines of text, and you think that this is easy to do because it is something that you believe you can do quickly - which is kind of a crap argument. You could also easily improve immersion by adding variants on images, for example, which are also quick and easy to do. However, it seems that because you don't believe you have the skills to do this kind of work, you place a much higher premium on it, and seem to be implying that it's hence more important that writing.

Similarly, just because you think you could add conditional logic and a few sentences to a scene quickly, it doesn't mean all people can (and incidentally, writing isn't something I struggle with personally - as you seem to imply). Further, adding additional complexity to the code in order to implement these features will increase the burden on testing, and for some developers these features are not going to be a priority that justifies the extra work.

Hence it would behove you to realise that not all people have what you believe is your skillset, and not all developers have your priorities. To make an immersive game will require a lot of work, probably by multiple people, and all features are important.

 

[Yoshiiki]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

I am only going to comment on topic of rape and corruption a little.
What do we know about rape victims? Depression, PTSD, suicidal thoughts, disconnection from reality and such. I don't think this could work for MC that should get corrupted. In games like trainers? Sure, because player see this heroine from third perspective of MC and not going too much into head of the female slave/harlot. But it's related to slightly different fetish.
So, without twisting how it really is, seems like it's just going to be a boner killer. Unless someone gets off to "..." and MC wanting to slit their own throat.
What a bummer, right? Not exactly.
Why? Because despite what I just wrote, sexual traumatization can cause hypersexuality (we dropped term nymphomania some time ago). I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but that's an actual thing. Problem is at what age it happened and to whom it happened.
Now, if we ignore that last sentence so it works for a game, having a heroine turned into a sex maniac, after getting raped many times, isn't that far off.
And if we don't wanna deal with child abuse and time skip but keep it real? Well, we could go for excessive alcohol/drug usage, some kind of addiction, family issues, mental problems... Even masturbation or sex can get additive and be a cause here.
How often those things are recurring themes in corruption games, but simplified?

Same with having a strong, female soldier, that gets captured and starts using her own body to gain something also isn't that far off, even stretching those gains for pure pleasure. Still can be explained by different causes.

But, corruption games can be better with even a little bit of research, rather than just being progress bar for unlocking scenes.
Giving a feel of a character, when we have background music, dialogues and CGs that show expressions and simple body language is enough to show what's going on with heroine of a game. It's just an extra work.

 

[hugo77]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

This thread is getting more stupid by the minute. Now youre talking about PTSD after rape in a fucking hentai game...
Nobody wants a realistic depiction of rape in these games ffs. They are just an easy way to fullfill erotic fantasies in a safe environment and thats it.

 

[Yoshiiki]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

This thread is getting more stupid by the minute. Now youre talking about PTSD after rape in a fucking hentai game...
Nobody wants a realistic depiction of rape in these games ffs. They are just an easy way to fullfill erotic fantasies in a safe environment and thats it.

Exactly, no one wants that.
I should probably be more clear what my intention here was xD
So let me try doing that now.
There is already a lot of irl related stuff in hentai games, but super simplified, probably without devs realizing that they aren't that far off.

A little bit of research on topic would be great when going into heroine's mind, but going too far will just turn it into a boner killer.
You can still keep mood swings, but take away shit like depression, make it more sexual and it is good. Rest will depend on writing.
So it's actually twisting what we know on the topic, to get that corrupted, sex addicted heroine

And for fuck sake, please devs [in general, not specific ones], don't try to explain in-game why it's happening to heroine's mind to make it more "realistic". Use stuff knowing why it's happening, but don't explain it, there is no need xD

Again, can make corruption games better, not a requirement. Especially not for people who want to jerk it off to images and just skip dialogues.

 

[moogles]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

I liked the corruption system in

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It takes a "few hours" to be fully corrupted. There is no 0 to 60 in 5 seconds raped 3 times and she becomes a slut or whatever. Its not a linear game to where you are forced to become a slut, you have some choice and for the most part can go virgin through the game if you wanted to and never be corrupted.

Although in this game it can take hours to be fully corrupted, it has "stages" of corruption.

1st part traumatized by rape, and faints.
2nd part can sort of shrug off advances but will faint.
3rd can withstand prolonged rape but will give up after awhile.
4th she can handle one on one for awhile, but a gang bang is too much
5th starts to like having sex
6th dosen't mind being raped anymore
7th looks forward to having sex
8th actively provokes others to messing with her in public


Its one of those games, that has a decent amount of "altered" lines of text, GoR rape, battle rape, event rape etc etc scenes... that it doesn't bother you too much to "level up" your characters corruption. Its not anywhere as boring as grinding levels, when your grinding corruption, its interesting to see her expression change, and corruption levels rise.

 

[MrMe]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

This thread is getting more stupid by the minute. Now youre talking about PTSD after rape in a fucking hentai game...
Nobody wants a realistic depiction of rape in these games ffs. They are just an easy way to fullfill erotic fantasies in a safe environment and thats it.

Speak for yourself.
Rape fantasy is actually one of the most common fetishes about, both on the receiving and dominating ends.


And some games have done it well, like some of the earlier builds of VH had Nanako be emotionally devastated for days after the loosing at the onsen.

 

[Merrill]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Speak for yourself.
Rape fantasy is actually one of the most common fetishes about, both on the receiving and dominating ends.


And some games have done it well, like some of the earlier builds of VH had Nanako be emotionally devastated for days after the loosing at the onsen.

Well, rape fantasy is a pretty broad fetish. Judging by 90% of hentai games with rape the demand falls into the "woman starts to like it after a few minutes" category.

If people were buying games where dicks get bitten off and the woman gets severely beaten, has PTSD and turns literally insane then that would be supplied. But it's not because authentic depictions of rape aren't what most people want.

So this thread is just pointless. Kingdom of Deception is not trying to be realistic. It's not trying to make sense. Saying what Sabia "should" do is ridiculous.

 

[nonoplayer]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Perhaps rape is forbidden in society, thus we sought out to fantasy to fullfill the desire.

But I agree in general developers should put more thoughts into the world and their characters. I don't play the game, though creators should use the art style and the beginning of the story to send their messages about the work they are making, eg more cartoony style for casual plots, realistic style for well...dark/serious stories.

 

[Kemious]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Speak for yourself.
Rape fantasy is actually one of the most common fetishes about, both on the receiving and dominating ends.


And some games have done it well, like some of the earlier builds of VH had Nanako be emotionally devastated for days after the loosing at the onsen.

Rape fantasty is less about actually being raped and more about the dominance/helpless.

I may speak for myself but when ever I get into a game that has the female characters completely hate the act I get completely turned off, it gets too uncomfortable.

 

[MrMe]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Like I love how seeds of corruption is doing it, where the demon twins want you corrupted and so they seduce and give you a slippery slope. downside is that it's slow to develop the paths.

Seeds of Chaos do you mean?
Looks like an interesting game either way, rare you get to play the bad guy.

 

[censuur]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Rape fantasty is less about actually being raped and more about the dominance/helpless.

I may speak for myself but when ever I get into a game that has the female characters completely hate the act I get completely turned off, it gets too uncomfortable.

That's just standard S&M dude, nothing to do with rape fantasy if you're not actually fantasizing about rape. At this point you'd just wonder why anyone would bother with the term at all, since it's never really used in a descriptive manner and requires further clarification regardless of context.

The idea of dominance/helplessness for example has fuck all to do with rape, the actual concept of which is all to do with being overpowered i.e. not being helpless, but not quite being able to win either. Same with dominance, which is about the idea of submission, rape with a bunch of dominance bollocks thrown in usually just comes off as petty or childish as calling someone names just for the sake of making them feel bad is just inherently silly. It's something you can expect in S&M play but the whole point of rape is that the other party just takes what they want without caring for their partner, which includes (petty) psychological nonsense. That's not to say rape can't be domineering or with the intent of "breaking" the partner, but then the emphasis of the act is obviously the breaking, with the rape being but a tool of the process rather than the core act.

I'd say the idea of "yielding" and being helpless is complete anathema to the idea of rape fantasy, since much of it is about the struggle, from the victim's perspective it's the idea that you could still get away, escape, fight back etc. and from the perpetrator it's about simple, base lust without concern for the other. In stories something like rape can be used in many ways to develop a character, it can provide context for their actions, motivation ("I need to be stronger") or make a character question their ideals and morality (say a 'good' character gets raped and revenge/retribution/justice is only possibly through 'evil' means, an internal conflict which changes/develops the character) That often isn't the case with acts that emphasize dominance itself, as the character generally just gets pulled around with little agency (which is kind of the point of dominance obviously)

For that reason I tend to find themes like domination/mind-control/blackmail etc. to be boring, since it essentially kills off the victim character and makes it little more than a pliable target dummy with no agency, there is no longer a question of "what will this character do, how will this character react to these events" since that was taken away

TL;DR: Don't turn my rape porn into mindbreak/ntr bollocks, the victim character retaining their personality and agency is rather important to this niche. ;_;

 

[habisain]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

The problem with this entire argument about rape fantasies is that there are at least four sides; those who want rape as a vehicle to corruption, those who want rape as an eternal "the heroine can fight back", those who want rape to be "realistic", and those who've read the literature on actual rape. Probably more sides, really.

I have not seen any realistic rape depictions, or aftermath, in any H-game, and that's because it's a very complex thing to depict, and something which most H-game developers will not have any direct or indirect experience. It's also, typically, not sexy (although everyone has their kinks), and hence realistic depictions aren't a good fit for H-games. In real life, rape is a highly traumatic event, normally characterised by the victim being unable to fight back (due to fear, alcohol, drugs, violence, whatever), and with lifelong consequences which are not easy to represent, and certainly not in a game whose primary purpose is to "be sexy".

Hence, the basic problem with this entire argument is that the term "rape fantasy" is overloaded - everyone has their own detailed idea of what they want from a "rape fantasy", and these ideas aren't going to be easily reconciled into a single idealised rape fantasy that fits everyone.

 

[Nomo]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Yeah, but the game overs aren't routes. I love them. They're great. But I was hoping that the more submissive I played and the more I whored her out I'd get to affect her personality more. Get her to like it more and eventually stray into some kind of sex slave path. Where Sabia is still in it for revenge, but now she loves getting violated randomly in the middle of the camp and will settle for being Tekrok's pet once it's all over. Kind of like Riven.

Game over and bad ends are a lot more important than some people seem to notice, but that will be expanded later on.
And while your choices definitely matter, Sabia becoming a slave doesn't really make sense in her continuing the game or her moving forward, I mean if she is a slave, there is no moving anywhere really.

I think opinions like this generally come from people thinking that KoD would be a short game and end after the camp arc, so I am sure that once we are past that and we reveal more and more of where we are going, the size of the world and our plans for it, people will understand why destroying the mc mentally in even less than the first 1/10th of the game is really the worst move you can do if we want to keep the game playable and interesting through Sabias eyes.
So its the case of people wanting short term fetish rewards on the cost of the game/story quality, which is a bit sad from a creative standpoint.

 

[censuur]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

It's called rape fantasy rather than rape fiction for a reason

You're on point though, and I think the last thing anyone who enjoys this kind of material would want is "realistic" depictions, but there's still a scale of realism versus just complete nonsense. Essentially what I mean here is that you can have something thematically similar to actual rape (shocking, traumatic, extremely unpleasant, painful) or something that barely resembles it (character just natters on about how it feels good). I don't think fiction is ever going to be able to be more than an approximation of what actual rape would do to a person, even ignoring the massive differences from person to person (lmaking a very a rough comparison to PTSD, you can get an entire unit of soldiers into a horrible situation and have only a handful of people to suffer PTSD from it, others might simply become apathetic or jaded, manic or depressed. Traumatic events can vary extremely wildly in their impact)

But the issue remains that the tag "rape" to describe a bit of fiction has no real meaning anymore and generally requires you to clarify with what exactly you mean since there's so many variants, some of which barely even qualify outside of the non-consensual aspect.

Game over and bad ends are a lot more important than some people seem to notice, but that will be expanded later on.

So its the case of people wanting short term fetish rewards on the cost of the game/story quality, which is a bit sad from a creative standpoint.

For what it's worth, I feel you've done a good job balancing content with the bad endings, it works really well to create some diversity in the scenes. I especially liked how you've made the bad ending in the last version contrast with existing scenes (in terms of what is depicted) and have quite a bit of plot relevant information that hints at future conflict and development. Unfortunately, when balancing material like this you'll always leave some people dissatisfied, but that's simply a victim to the choice of giving the player options. Some will simply not appeal to a subset of players and be "worthless" to them.

 

[ponyguy3000]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Game over and bad ends are a lot more important than some people seem to notice, but that will be expanded later on.
And while your choices definitely matter, Sabia becoming a slave doesn't really make sense in her continuing the game or her moving forward, I mean if she is a slave, there is no moving anywhere really.

I think opinions like this generally come from people thinking that KoD would be a short game and end after the camp arc, so I am sure that once we are past that and we reveal more and more of where we are going, the size of the world and our plans for it, people will understand why destroying the mc mentally in even less than the first 1/10th of the game is really the worst move you can do if we want to keep the game playable and interesting through Sabias eyes.
So its the case of people wanting short term fetish rewards on the cost of the game/story quality, which is a bit sad from a creative standpoint.

I can see from the last ''bad'' end that they are very important. Lots of plot points dropped there. Can't wait to learn more about them.

I use ''slave'' loosely. I just want her to be more... inclined towards sexual pleasures. Even if they don't necessarily get her any closer to her goal.
And I'm not expecting any huge mind breaks right away. I know you plan to make this a long game and it's still too soon for that. I was thinking way ahead down the line. Hoping that eventually all the submissive choices I make would lead to a more sex craving, mind broken Sabia and to an ending of that type. Like I said, kind of like Riven. Where I could just suck random dick on the street after a certain point.

I'm sorry if my wishes make it seem like I don't appreciate your hard work. That is not my intention. While I am primarily interested in the H, I do not mean to belittle everything else you've done. The game is great. The story is great. The art is great. I love this game. It is amazing. And that's exactly why I'm bummed if I never get the ''sex slave'' path I desire. Sabia is the exact type of woman I love to see subjected to such fetishes. Sexy, strong, stubborn warrior woman. And your art only adds to that. God, I could stare at it all day. Everything in this game is so good that tiny little things like not having a particular fetish end up bothering me.
But if it is not meant to be, then it is not meant to be. I'll just have to get my fill of mind break and sexual slavery from the ''bad'' ends. That's fine. Just pay me no mind when I whine like this. I'm just a big baby.

EDIT: Hmm... Deja vu.

 

[Slam Sector]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

I think you're being too pushy about how devs handle their games. You made a thread about one game, and it simply isn't about what you want it to be.

 

[Nexano]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Protagonist is adult non-virgin woman with strong character. Sex is just another tool for her. She not forced to do anything, she just do what must be done to reach her goal. So why she must be "corrupted" in any way? I really don't get it.
In mediaval setting sex and rape, is not really big deal. But, by basics, after brutal gangrape women just breaks like thats happens in VH if you loose to orcs.
Still none of corrupting/breaking happening in KoD.

Reason for this topic creation really slipping from me.

 

[Ninja_Named_Bob]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Protagonist is adult non-virgin woman with strong character. Sex is just another tool for her. She not forced to do anything, she just do what must be done to reach her goal. So why she must be "corrupted" in any way? I really don't get it.

Because she's a soldier, and a general at that. Persons at the highest level in any given military ought to command respect from their underlings and the enemy, and should be above using sexual favors to get ahead. It runs completely contrary to how disciplined a soldier needs to be, that they believe to get somewhere with an opposing faction or within their own nation, that they should devalue themselves to that degree.

Honestly, people justifying the "military GENERAL using sex to gain advantage" make me fear for the future of the species. You are a highly-trained killing machine, both capable of ending a man's life in over 100 ways (and that's before your morning coffee), and disciplined to discern which man to kill. Oh, but if you want to get ahead in your chosen profession, better to disregard all that time and training and give your superior a blowjob instead. Fucking Hell.

In mediaval setting sex and rape, is not really big deal.

AH-HAHAHA! Yeah, no. There was less concern over commoners and persons of a lesser standing in society being used and abused, but nobility was off-limits unless you could manage to do it on the down-low. A recognized and respected military figure? Assuming you managed to sedate them or otherwise prevent them from resisting, you would need to have a higher standing or tons of rep to avoid getting your head separated from the rest of you.

Historically, you didn't rape another noble unless you either dominated their province and took them prisoner, or could manage it through some miracle of nobody wanting to put your head on a pike afterwards. Oh, and that position was generally reserved for the King and his pals, so good luck being an ugly orc trying to rape a general and getting away with it.

But, by basics, after brutal gangrape women just breaks like thats happens in VH if you loose to orcs.

The assumption is the heroine is forced to endure multiple forced orgasms/rapes before she turns into a broken, cock-happy sex-toy. It doesn't just happen after one orgasm; otherwise, that would shatter the fantasy. It's why (for me) a lot of Mind control/hypnosis content feels lazy and uninspired. "I hypnotize you in 5 seconds. You are now a cock-happy slut." "I am now a cock-happy slut after no effort on my part to resist the hypnosis." Nothing bores my dick faster.

Likewise (I'm assuming), the idea that a proud, disciplined, and well-trained general would suddenly devalue herself to giving handjobs behind the tent to win the favor of the orcs is a bit off-putting to most. It also doesn't help that, even if orcs are (in most content featuring orcs) just upright pigs, there is a lot of content in DnD and even TES relating to their behavior. I hate this generic "orcs are brutish, piggish fucks whose only interests are conquest of more advanced civilizations and raping women" crap. I prefer the Klingon version, which is "Orcs have a sense of honor and respect for strong adversaries and a rich culture based around that attitude."

Still none of corrupting/breaking happening in KoD.

Developer decided not to. I feel it's a missed opportunity with their attitude towards one of the most common "enemy" races in fantasy, but that's my opinion.

Reason for this topic creation really slipping from me.

I'm gonna say reading is a skill you haven't invested a lot of practice in.

 

[ponyguy3000]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

ugly orc

Hey, I'll have you know the orcs in this game are very attractive. Sexiest, handsomest orcs I've ever seen. Can't blame Sabia for wanting some of that orc D. Especially Lutvrog's. Oh, Lutvrog. I just want you to hold me in your strong arms. Let me feel safe within your warm embrace.

 

[kicaq]

Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Hey, I'll have you know the orcs in this game are very attractive. Sexiest, handsomest orcs I've ever seen. Can't blame Sabia for wanting some of that orc D. Especially Lutvrog's. Oh, Lutvrog. I just want you to hold me in your strong arms. Let me feel safe within your warm embrace.

Yeah! Justice for Orcs! They way they are portrayed in some games is simply ridiculous and couldn't be further from truth. We are quite smart and can develop good war strategies! Orcs deserve to have proper representation in all H-games!