A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

[FireoftheMonkey]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

I wish to add a comment on this idea, mainly because it's freaking sweet. I possibly running a multi heroin dungeon but it was more of a who gets to the end first type of scenario. And I like this idea, what if instead of having a boss encounter, or just having for this style a level 7 where the competing heroin's face off. Depending upon the rest of the dungeon determines the favorite, balance wise since the boss loses DC each time the heroin tries it. I think there should be like a minimum damage, Tho that seems unbalanced.

What if instead of dealing so much damage it was a pure number of success option. Because thinking on it if the mob has 10hp and a combat of 5 and the heroin has a combat of 8, she needs to tie his roll 4 times to win. That seems like a lot, especially if she's trying to do this against two stats.

Side note I did just get my second heroin into Cave of Wishes, so if you had an idea and wanted it tested. Assuming Tass and Cappy are ok with it when they are both done their after RP can be fighting over the wish. This of course assumes they are both ok with it...and get that far. Or I could simply put up a monster as a stage seven of Tass, pretty much I have a dungeon I'm ok with as a starting point that if it can be used for something system wise. I'm all for it assuming the players are cool with it.

 

[Kathy]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

I think the notion of a PvP style boss would be to either have some kind of end-boss that needs to be balanced to suit it, or that the ending would specifically be geared towards which stat is chosen. It would need to fit the plot in some way that makes it appropriate, and hence need to be determined as the dungeon is made. Tossing extra stages on the end is never a good idea.


Which does bring me to a potential update.

I've been turning the ideas about in my head, and the best way I can think of to make dungeons longer while still balanced is to give the girls some kind of ongoing recovery method, while beefing up challenges slightly accordingly.

(Mathy stuff and rambling)

Spoiler

Currently, the system is designed that the "default" primary challenge, with an "average" roll, will result in Adventurers taking about... 3 damage per dungeon. 4 or 5 if they roll poorly on the boss.

The scaling and secondary challenges were all created with a half careless, half tested method that, in the end, seems to have worked out great. Half the time, lots of girls succeed, and half the time, lots of girls fail.

The trouble with this "balance" is that adjusting it in either direction may make things too easy, or too hard. I guessed around that, on an average string of encounters, the girls will pass 3 (15s rolled), and fail 3 (5s rolled), then balanced the system from there, using modifiers and secondaries to adjust values, so in the end, the girls will typically cut it very, very close.

On average rolls, the girls will fail by around 5 to 7 points on primary, and take 10 to 14 points on secondary, depending on which methods used. Making 17~ damage x 3 encounters, as the average around 51 damage.

This was a bit low on first glance (10 x 6 willpower would always succeed at these rolls), and I realized the end needed a bit more kick. That's when the "end boss" got added, and further scaled so his stats weakened with each failed attempt, to prevent him from being an un-winnable challenge.


In the end, this gave enough spread, that after failing one of these rolls on first attempt (and suffering appropriate damage), it wouldn't likely end the dungeon, but rather make those final follow-up rolls decide the outcome.


An average of 68 damage, split on even stats, would divide between 80 points of full stats, and have 12 willpower left.

With challenges fairly evenly distributed, this was vaguely determined that one or two stats would remain high by taking low damage on them, while the other two stats would be at zero and start taking willpower damage, ending in what many players often find themselves in. So the system worked out, not quite perfectly, but good enough.


And here's where we come to a couple, minor, problems of extending dungeons.

The most simple solution is to give a +7~8 Willpower/Chosen Stat recovery potion per stage added. Followed with giving unlimited choices of challenge stats to be chosen, with a vague nod to try to keep to the existing choices.

But this makes it too easy for an Adventurer to simply restore her Willpower and injured stat right before a boss and render the long trials of the dungeon moot.


Alternately, we could impliment a simple +1~2 to each stat for every stage past the sixth. This turns out to be a bit stronger, and potentially unbalancing, especially if a villain were to focus in on a specific stat.


...
Having gotten many suggestions from players about different things to add, I even briefly thought about ways to add the "resistance" stat into the game.

But after doing a bit of trial and error on it, it proves to be vastly too complicated to balance properly, and a huge headache in play.

(The basic idea was raise challenge difficulty by 2~ points, and put 3 points of "resistance" on standard. Then if the adventurer fails the primary, she still suffers secondary, even if she "resists" the primary damage. And, subsequently, can try to resist secondary damage as well. Then she may "buy" resistance instead of ability, at about a 1 to 2 ratio... Feel free to toy with that for balance if anyone cares to. The end result should be that Adventurers fail primaries more often, but don't take the damage, though take enough damage that the secondary challenge still hurts her.)


... eh, it may work. If anyone cares to run a dungeon like that, feel free to.

Anyhow!

I think the best solution for unlimited open-ended dungeons would be as follows...

(for those tl;dr people here's what you need to know)

Rules for any number stage dungeons.
1) No Primary challenge type may be used more than 40% of the time (rounded down). This modifies to 50% in a 3-stat dungeon, or to 30% in a 5-stat dungeon.
2) Same rule goes for Secondary challenge types.
3) All challenges now have a (free, no modifier cost) change of +1 difficulty check. (Multipliers are not raised, as the primary raise transfers through.)
4) Adventurers now recover +2 points in every stat, and +2 point in willpower, for every stage of the dungeon. (In 3 stat dungeons, +3 willpower, in 5 stat dungeons, +1 willpower.)
5) Villains have 50 points to spend on every stage, +10 per level of adventurers. And no more than x3 this value may be spent on any one stage (including the End Boss).
6) You may have multiple "Boss" stages now, each one treated like an end-boss, however Adventurers recover both before, and after, the boss. (Yes, this counts for the final end-boss too. Check rule 4 for recovery rules.)

All other rules and stats are as described in the previous 6-stage dungeons. Modifier limits, etc. etc.

It is STRONGLY suggested that these rules be used to create longer dungeons, as shorter dungeons won't work with the rules.

... Meh, I don't really like it, I may just be too tired. Someone try it if you want to. Otherwise, send me a PM or reply here if you have suggestions/fixes.

Had a long week... x-x

 

[Zenath]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Interesting, I'll give those a try with my next dungeon. I'll also toy with a PvP-style boss somewhere - will drop you a PM with some balancing ideas when I've tried it all a bit.

 

[FireoftheMonkey]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Been thinking about the PvP thing, and while my idea's tend to not be well recieved I look at this one and come up with this. Played it a few times with two bs characters I made. First problem, the characters are going to use their best stat each time unless forced not to. Makes for a rather boring combat all in all. Thus I came up with this.

First step/round initiative
Both combatants roll a d20 higher goes first. Going first is both a blessing and a hurt, you get to attack first, meaning all stats are open to you. I'll explain that more in a minute. Ambush, if you want to just strike without warning, that is ok but only if you and the DM are RPing before the combat. pretty much you need something to be distracting the other combatant in order for this to work. If the heroin charges in sword drawn that is not an ambush, you both roll initiative, it's assumed that the boss is expecting company thus unless you distract or sneak in your not getting the drop on him. Tho the same goes for you.

Second round first attack - and attacks after that.
First round you pick a stat and roll an attack, the attack is just like using that stat to pass a challenge. Roll + modifiers = DC for the opponent. On the first round of combat that is all that happens. The defender here, person going second, makes a defense check. pretty much same as an attack. the winner win's the loser takes damage equal to the difference between them.

Here is where things get interesting, the second combattant gets to make an attack, but she can't use the stat she just used for defence. Also if you lose using a stat, be it because you defended poorly or attacked poorly. You can't use that stat for your next attack. SO if you attack with spirit, fail by how ever much. The next time you could use spirit to attack, this assumes the enemy does not use it against you. Then you can't use it. The stat is locked out for once possible use of it.

This back and forth continues until you have a victor. Needless to say the person with will power left at the end is the winner.

point wise in dungeons the only thing I can think of is this.

Boss encounter only, costs 50 points for a level 0 boss, +25 points for every level you wish to give the boss. Up to but not exceeding the level of the dungeon. That is honestly I think too cheap for this but at the same time I look at this and say this is a lot more interesting then just double challenge but that's me. Hope this helps with balancing it, and I can't wait to see rules for it because it looks fun as hell.

 

[Kathy]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

First problem, the characters are going to use their best stat each time unless forced not to.

That's why I already suggested that villains who want to use PvP will define which stat is used ahead of time. In a combat PvP situation, you wouldn't suddenly start using Naughty.

The solution for PvP is simple. Both sides roll, and the higher roll wins, doing that much damage to their opponent.

A PvP encounter may move through multiple challenges (Such as an entire dungeon dedicated to PvP), but each encounter must be made at the challenge set.

And your balance for PvP is way off. To make a rival that has the same stats as the player, for a mere 50 + 25 per level... is essentially assuring Adventurer defeat.


PvP is being worked on as a variant of a primary challenge/miniboss/second wind crossover, for balancing purposes. It's exact stats aren't defined yet, but I'll post when I have time and can get some numbers crunched.

 

[Zenath]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

New dungeon up. Kathy's still double checking one of the stages, so it's not quite ready to be run, but drop me a line if interested...

 

[Kathy]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Zenath's dungeon looks good except for his PvP boss, which is currently strong enough to almost take down a level 2 character solo, without the dungeon even coming into play.

I'm already guessing at the boss' cost to be around 132 points, but the dungeon only has 21 points left to spend on the boss

If anyone is itching to dive in, consider it approved as a test-run of how the other features are working, and a trial of the PvP system at the end.

Just know, you're very likely to be pwned by the end-boss.

 

[Zenath]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Sent off an adjustment to make it rather more fair. There's enough cruel challenges without an uberkiller finish

 

[Kathy]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Fixed and approved.

PvP bosses are considered in test-period right now.

 

[FireoftheMonkey]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Thinking on it some more my idea for pvp bosses really is unbalance able. Then I thought about it more, due to a friend rambling about his pvp in wow, he just got back into the game. And realized I'm the internet monsters as the villain...so me vs. the heroin is PvE. Thus PvP is vs. two different RPers, so taking this thought to heart I moved forward to another idea.

First up the combat system would be pretty much what I described before, understandably moving from combat to another would be interesting. But if your fighting someone in a fist fight and losing so you stick it out and lose? Or do you run away trying to keep energy in yourself but tire out your opponent. Or hell cop a feel, try to lock in a suggestive hold, that's explore and naughty used as attacks. Thus while it might not make perfect sense it would be interesting, at least I think so.

Anyways the dungeon idea I had was this, there is not a villain, there is a boss or mini boss, but no villain. Just a meguffin, sorry for using the trope name for it. It's a thing both heroines want. When they beat the dungeon, together or apart they fight between each other pvp style for it. This gives an interesting take on the over all style of the dungeon, heroines can choose to help a heroin get past a difficult challenge they would have difficulty with, due to penalties/ bonuses given for multiple heroins. But they could also sit back and watch the other one fail and take damage. Either way it's a suggestion and an interesting idea that popped into my head. Feel free to give me thoughts and suggestions if you think it's dumb then that's cool, I though it was a weird interesting idea. And I've said my other weird seemingly dumb idea's before so why stop now.

 

[Cappy]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

So wait, if this gets approved I'll end up with my character having rough lesbian sex with Tassadars character?
Lulz, this will be hilariously fun.

 

[Kathy]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Thinking on it some more my idea for pvp bosses really is unbalance able.

- Balanced already, renders the rest of your post moot. -


Actual PvP is only viable if the players agreed to it somehow or if it was otherwise built into a dungeon. Best options for this is a multiplayer dungeon where only one player may take the prize. Fudge all of the stats downward as a base, then add a LOT of the challenges where taking one causes another challenge to get more difficult.

In this way, players will "fight" each other every step of the way, potentially even causing both of them to gameover before they reach the final stage, while if they DO make it past the end-boss, a bonus PvP stage can exist where all Adventurers reaching it would duke it out in the way I already described above.

(Yes, feel free to suggest this in any dungeons you run.)

 

[FireoftheMonkey]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Random question about the longer dungeons, is the 50 points cumulative over hte whole dungeon? SO if you have ten stages with a heroin level 0 you get 500 points to spend in total? Or is it 50 per stage no matter what? Looking at it I assume it is the first option I put forward, as such I'm probably gonna work towards play testing this see if it works, at the moment I'm thinking there should be some way for a heroin to gain a level mid dungeon. Just because that would be cool, pretty much stack 3 ten stage dungeons together with ever ten stages the heroin gains a level.

Understandably difficult to balance, tho at the same time it sounds fun to me, but that is me, anyways that is my main suggestion here. I'm probably gonna put one together for Tass's follow up to CoW. and it's gonna be a long one, probably about 40 or so stages. Maybe more who knows highlander! who knows?

 

[Kathy]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

It becomes 500 points for the whole dungeon, the "balance" comes from my previous rules about modifications. I considered putting alternate rules in, but I don't want to make it TOO complicated on the other hand.

I'm working on what is likely going to be the biggest BSotA dungeon ever launched, and I'm going to have a very limited number of play slots allowed when it's launched, doing a daily or twice daily update, with a warning I may miss a day from time to time.

@ Your idea of stacking dungeons together. This is completely doable, go ahead and balance each dungeon seperately, then add that when the heroine levels up, she chooses ability points and stat points (and immediately gains any stat points earned).

I'd likely put one "Boss" type in each of the three sections (either towards the end, or at the end), and have some kind of pre-made stopping point for the heroine to rest and recover for gaining her level. Or something like a trainer or ... yeah, you get the idea.


Don't forget, if you want custom effects in your dungeon, you can offer suggestions. I'm going to really be straining the system as a test when I launch my big dungeon, as it will not only include the normal options, but I'll be trying out a string of custom specialties that will turn it into an entire adventure (A silly one at that!).

 

[Zenath]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Should be interesting, I look forward to following those. Not much of the heroine type myself, though I should probably try it some time...

Was hoping a vict- *ahem* volunteer would try out my extended one to help test the rules to give Kathy an idea of whether it works or not, but no matter. I know it's a busy time for some. Myself included, technically.

 

[FireoftheMonkey]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Oh shot Zenath I didn't notice, I normally don't run heroines but to test out the math of a new dungeon thing I'll give it a go I guess.

Either way Kathy when exactly are we able to sign up for this new super dungeon you are creating, while normally not playing heroines my interest is peaked.

 

[Termite]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

I won't lie, one of the reasons I stopped lurking was because Kathy said she was making a test dungeon way back when. I absolutely loved reading through the Zelda CYOA. I'm looking forward to giving her quest a try, but I'm also kinda stuck in a rut. I'm having the damnedest time trying to get a response out for Zenath. I don't think it'd be fair to him (her?) to take up another dungeon when I'm still involved in Wolf, so I'll just sit on the sidelines for now. Besides, I'm really enjoying Zen's dungeons, so I'll be happy messing with that for a bit.

 

[Zenath]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

I won't lie, one of the reasons I stopped lurking was because Kathy said she was making a test dungeon way back when. I absolutely loved reading through the Zelda CYOA. I'm looking forward to giving her quest a try, but I'm also kinda stuck in a rut. I'm having the damnedest time trying to get a response out for Zenath. I don't think it'd be fair to him (her?) to take up another dungeon when I'm still involved in Wolf, so I'll just sit on the sidelines for now. Besides, I'm really enjoying Zen's dungeons, so I'll be happy messing with that for a bit.

Him Do let me know if you want me to change something with the post... I might be the GM for the game, but it's still a co-operative effort

 

[Zenath]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Apologies to Fire and Termite, busy week and absolute inspirational blank. Will try to update over the weekend.

 

[Termite]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

I completely understand. It took me two weeks to break past my block. xp