[ ぽに犬 ] Way'' RJ123273

[Harleyquin13]

Re: [新作]Way2

BreakP is what I translated 調教 as when I misunderstood what it did. It's still fitting with sex slaves, not as much lovers.

I always use three girls unless I'm deliberately creating a lower power sword for support. I don't use Marielle for those since she's guaranteed to amp the power level. I've gotten max skills with her reliably often, sometimes it takes a second attempt, but when I don't use her I'm more likely to see a useful skill in the 1st slot, so I get a lot more effectiveness for the power level. Is that coincidence, or am I doing something wrong with Marielle that I don't know about?

Semirama does have a heart over her service zone, but I've never seen it next to her high score, and I can't retain the class she creates when someone else (Marielle) scores over her.

Here's the talisman I use (ponidog was wise to cap enchants at +30):

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Does the weapon at the bottom only apply during Quests, or globally? If it's not used in the Harem, I at least have the +2 Table for all zones. The BreakP and +Energy are enough to flip 10 panels before the last checkpoint. Occasionally they can be done as early as the second, as long as I force-ejac every 2-3 rounds. If I screw up, the Cooking helps make up the difference, otherwise it helps magnify the boost from the final checkpoints.

I think I'll change [Fastidious] to [Uptight], it's shorter and has all the connotations of the original Japanese.

Here's the party I used for 440:

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Fia doesn't have any spectacular defense skills, yet before she got Aegis Shield, she strolled through 300 difficulty with two heros who couldn't do a single thing. Really, all they did was leave tiles of failure behind then die while aiding the village, but Fia was probably around half her health when she cleared it. Goma with Excalibur has excellent damage, but as leader he can't soak the damage to make the final tiles to the village at 440 difficulty. Freya is reliable for high damage output; I wouldn't call her a glass cannon, but 320+ difficulty is beyond her ability to take lead and survive. She was supposed to be a support character, but her red is still higher and green and blue lower than I would've liked. The bowman with 3/6/7 is much closer to what I was getting at. Between them, their damage output and effectiveness per power doesn't support any connection between red and combat ability.

I've had a look at both your artifact and your squad. To be honest, I'm now tempted to try out the 300+ dungeons now that I've seen what you managed to clear them with.

A few suggestions for you. Feel free to accept or disregard as you see fit:

1. You've summoned stronger heroes in the questline, so you no longer have to pair up Marielle with 白の守護者. The C rating and 4 slots is a killer and pointless to have when you can maintain the same affection rating with a stronger class.
2. Your A-team squad looks like the heroes I was creating before I found out about the just-fit combinations at the wiki. I'm not surprised your 輝きの御子 is stronger than the other two, the reason is the level 10 moonsabre skill and the defensive 心眼. The other two have semi-decent mid-level skills but nothing much else going for them. Excalibur is a bit wasted on that gladiator, since you can get multiple copies you're better off making a stronger hero and transferring Excalibur to him/her. Combat rating is definitely tied to your red score; if the hero only has 3 then it's no wonder it's getting hurt more often. 5 is the minimum allowing heroes to clear the 6 named dungeons when coupled with strong special moves and a decent skill set.
3. As I mentioned in my previous post, sealing elemental spirits, getting a high ecstasy score and pumping in lots of special tiles all contributes to a good skill set. I've attached a couple of my recent creations using 3 girls to illustrate my point.
4. You need jewels for the girls in order for their class combinations to count if they aren't top of the ecstasy ranking. According to the wiki, coupling plus one jewel of any colour is enough to allow you to choose a class from the results of the 2nd and 3rd girls. To get jewels, a just-fit combination of special tiles on the final ejaculation phases virtually guarantees at least one will turn up. You need to watch out since some combinations will not register if special tiles turned up on the girl's steadily increasing orgasm bonuses.
5. Regarding your item: the weapon at the bottom ONLY applies to quests. Something to note for your translation. For the panels, the maximum number of stars you can flip per area is 12 provided you did 3 each (the final one selected based on your stone status). That translates to 4 stones with the rest coming from the Hanafuda mode and potential bonus from climax and just-fit combinations.
6. I'm curious about your 9,9,7 cursed warrior. I'm working towards making a solid one to replace the weak version I fluked during my early playthroughs. Why aren't you using him to clear the strong dungeons?
7. Uptight saves you letter count and is just as good at expressing the original Japanese meaning.
8. My cooking rating is only +1, but Haine with her innate cooking skills can still turn up with a mammoth steak every once in a while. Basically you only need enough hearts from food to ensure you're not running on empty for the final finishing phases.

I've attached a few screenshots of what I've made plus a few comments below:

1. The Black Archer was created after using 3 balanced girls. This is the first decent hero I've made that didn't have おむすび as the first lvl10 skill, I suspect it was because of the reasons I've stated above.
2. Horse thief 1 and 2 were products involving Yeadow. Unfortunately for me I wasn't using 安定 artifacts at the time and got saddled with the crappy horse thief class. A shame too since the two skills they were assigned have yet to be replicated by my now-stronger heroes. (3,6,7 is alright for support but absolutely worthless as squad captain).
3. I'm quite pleased with how this palace guard turned out. It's an average class but the skill set is very solid (1 top-level, 1 mid-high and 1 mid-level skill)
4. The Hunter was my attempt at creating a new farmer for the assault squads. I'm disappointed I didn't get 9 for the blue score, but I at least secured meteor strike for the 2nd skill so it's not a complete failure.
5. The Nazgul is a single-girl creation with the express aim of farming honour and loot for the girl. As you can see, it has the useless おむすび skill because it's not being helped by other girls and their potential contributions. Despite this it still has 飛燕剣 and venom so it can scrape through the 6 named dungeons. I estimate it can clear 120-140 difficulty dungeons and still survive.

 

[enkephalin07]

Re: [新作]Way2

1. Whoever I pair Marielle up with, the sword still reads White Guardian+Marielle. I am definitely getting the benefits of my Malmuk Shadow Hero with her, though.
2. Though I don't quite understand them yet, I get just-fit combinations with very high frequency. Same with Erogenous Bursts; all I understand about them is that they give a bonus and they're a good indicator that I'll be able to pass the limit.
3. Elemental spirits? Do you mean the bonus elemental tiles that appear along the bottom of the girl's pane? I get those whenever I think I'm going to go a few rounds before next ejaculation.
4. That's not quite accurate; I've gotten class selections from Yeadow and Selica without getting jewels, and Ninya almost always gets me a jewel but never has coupling effects.
6. I really think you're placing more weight on those proportions than are warranted. That hero is good the power level, but not nearly up to 20+ dungeons.
8. I try to save my heaviest meal for the final two rounds before so I have plenty of life left, then eat meals before and between final checkpoints for the power boost. I think power makes a difference here.

Unless I'm trying to make a farming support character, I always max the girl's zone ranks so I can get maximum points while bringing up the skills. It's gotten a lot easier after I figured out how to coordinate the expense with getting seeds into the nutsack. Another thing Semirama is excellent for; if I start with service, she can have all ranks maxed and one of every seed ready to shoot by the 3rd round. She often grants bonus capacity to Seikron so he can throw in a little extra courage and intellect.

I have a bunch of new, more powerful characters that I haven't even given a test drive yet. I'm probably going to hang onto the highlander for awhile, but I've wanted to swap out that gladiator since I got him.

 

[Harleyquin13]

Re: [新作]Way2

1. Whoever I pair Marielle up with, the sword still reads White Guardian+Marielle. I am definitely getting the benefits of my Malmuk Shadow Hero with her, though.
2. Though I don't quite understand them yet, I get just-fit combinations with very high frequency. Same with Erogenous Bursts; all I understand about them is that they give a bonus and they're a good indicator that I'll be able to pass the limit.
3. Elemental spirits? Do you mean the bonus elemental tiles that appear along the bottom of the girl's pane? I get those whenever I think I'm going to go a few rounds before next ejaculation.
4. That's not quite accurate; I've gotten class selections from Yeadow and Selica without getting jewels, and Ninya almost always gets me a jewel but never has coupling effects.
6. I really think you're placing more weight on those proportions than are warranted. That hero is good the power level, but not nearly up to 20+ dungeons.
8. I try to save my heaviest meal for the final two rounds before so I have plenty of life left, then eat meals before and between final checkpoints for the power boost. I think power makes a difference here.

Unless I'm trying to make a farming support character, I always max the girl's zone ranks so I can get maximum points while bringing up the skills. It's gotten a lot easier after I figured out how to coordinate the expense with getting seeds into the nutsack. Another thing Semirama is excellent for; if I start with service, she can have all ranks maxed and one of every seed ready to shoot by the 3rd round. She often grants bonus capacity to Seikron so he can throw in a little extra courage and intellect.

I have a bunch of new, more powerful characters that I haven't even given a test drive yet. I'm probably going to hang onto the highlander for awhile, but I've wanted to swap out that gladiator since I got him.

2. Just-fit allows you to get jewels AND surpass the limitations on ecstasy for nearly all the girls. The table in the wiki is a real boon when I'm playing the harem.
3.　荒ぶる精霊: you get these after getting 10 stars for a given area. Score 50 points to seal them in, 60 if you fail for that area and switch over to another. 3 maximum per girl, get them to ensure skills are good.
4. Wiki info is: 　前述のカップリング効果とLOS効果の合計数が2以上になった場合、
　2、3人目の女の子もクラスの選択肢に入る。
　『カップリング効果とLOS効果の合計数』は　個別ではなく2、3人目の合計の模様
　( 1人目がカップリング効果＋LOS効果宝石1つ、2人目がカップリング効果、3人目がLOS効果宝石1つで 3つのクラス選択肢が現れた)
Initially I thought each girl needed coupling and a jewel for their class to be considered. Apparently that's not the case. This should answer your question on why some girls don't offer their class combinations to the mix.
6. Think about it this way: your hero with 3 red does 50x3+75-80 damage per combat round. You DON'T think this is worse than a hero with 5 red doing 40x5+70-75 damage? The green score doesn't really matter, while the blue score is important at higher level dungeons where the multiplier could be the difference between success or failure at securing that piece of meat.
8. Power does matter, but it's ridiculously easy to get since a high enough 加護 rating ensures shades giving mana and +1 to POW turn up often enough that food is consumed primarily to ensure hearts are topped up.

Even my farming characters have maxed out ranks for each area, the only difference is I involve Yeadow with 2 other balanced girls. What you describe with Semirama is more or less the case with all of my harem members with the exceptions of Yeadow and Mariel who need extra 調教 points for their respective weaknesses.

You have a +30 artifact and multiple copies of ****-grade hero artifacts in storage. Frankly I'm astounded my heroes are still keeping up with yours taking into account your considerable advantages. If your latest crop of heroes doesn't surpass the examples I put up, then something's wrong with your playstyle.

 

[enkephalin07]

Re: [新作]Way2

Alright, I had filed a mental note to look into those "Gifts", then forgot and at some point stopped noticing them. Ninya is the only one I consistently got jewels with, which I already figured got me her class selection, but I've never seen them fill in a placeholder skill. No matter how many jewels I bring I'm still stuck with Marielle's Omusubi.

6. Think about it this way: your hero with 3 red does 50x3+75-80 damage per combat round. You DON'T think this is worse than a hero with 5 red doing 40x5+70-75 damage? The green score doesn't really matter, while the blue score is important at higher level dungeons where the multiplier could be the difference between success or failure at securing that piece of meat.

Ah, you're confusing combat frequency for attack frequency. Red only determines the rate at which your Hero discovers red tiles, same with green and blue, except blue also has some defense. Now do you get why I stressed high blue/low red for the back-tier support characters? The closest stat to attack rate is initiative (seeds of wind), which determines how many preemptive strikes they get before a round of quick hanafude, which is where each combat round is determined. Enough preemptive damage will end that before it begins, so the Hero can walk on without a scratch.

8. Power does matter, but it's ridiculously easy to get

After the final round of hanafude, food is the only source of energy. More often than not I have a need to spend my pow in those last two rounds, so I reach the final checkpoint with 5 at the most, and that's gone in the 1st ejac. At the very least I try to hold on to 1 food for between them.

Frankly I'm astounded my heroes are still keeping up with yours taking into account your considerable advantages.

I won't understand what you mean until you tell me about the 440 dungeon you cleared, or indicate which of your above characters can solo a 300.

My last characters were disappointing. I really haven't put the Black Hand to the test because his skill set was so unimpressive. I walked him through a 240 dungeon at most. Decent, but not great in proportion to power level. I also completely wasted a Hero class and awesome skills; I found I could record the same girl for another score by moving her in the harem, then found that her lower score wasn't counted in creation, but pushed out the last girl's score.

Then I got a Livery Officer (yeah, I'm not happy with that translation,) who I had so little hope for I threw him straight to 300 to save some time. He pulled through pretty well. Granted his party were good for support this time, but he looks worth developing to replace the Gladiator.

 

[Nr123]

Re: [新作]Way2

Alright, I had filed a mental note to look into those "Gifts", then forgot and at some point stopped noticing them. Ninya is the only one I consistently got jewels with, which I already figured got me her class selection, but I've never seen them fill in a placeholder skill. No matter how many jewels I bring I'm still stuck with Marielle's Omusubi.


Ah, you're confusing combat frequency for attack frequency. Red only determines the rate at which your Hero discovers red tiles, same with green and blue, except blue also has some defense. Now do you get why I stressed high blue/low red for the back-tier support characters? The closest stat to attack rate is initiative (seeds of wind), which determines how many preemptive strikes they get before a round of quick hanafude, which is where each combat round is determined. Enough preemptive damage will end that before it begins, so the Hero can walk on without a scratch.
After the final round of hanafude, food is the only source of energy. More often than not I have a need to spend my pow in those last two rounds, so I reach the final checkpoint with 5 at the most, and that's gone in the 1st ejac. At the very least I try to hold on to 1 food for between them.


I won't understand what you mean until you tell me about the 440 dungeon you cleared, or indicate which of your above characters can solo a 300.

My last characters were disappointing. I really haven't put the Black Hand to the test because his skill set was so unimpressive. I walked him through a 240 dungeon at most. Decent, but not great in proportion to power level. I also completely wasted a Hero class and awesome skills; I found I could record the same girl for another score by moving her in the harem, then found that her lower score wasn't counted in creation, but pushed out the last girl's score.

Then I got a Livery Officer (yeah, I'm not happy with that translation,) who I had so little hope for I threw him straight to 300 to save some time. He pulled through pretty well. Granted his party were good for support this time, but he looks worth developing to replace the Gladiator.

Im really happy someone translation this game but there is no need fight over game, just share your save so we can test what make so differends ?

 

[Harleyquin13]

Re: [新作]Way2

Ah, you're confusing combat frequency for attack frequency. Red only determines the rate at which your Hero discovers red tiles, same with green and blue, except blue also has some defense. Now do you get why I stressed high blue/low red for the back-tier support characters? The closest stat to attack rate is initiative (seeds of wind), which determines how many preemptive strikes they get before a round of quick hanafude, which is where each combat round is determined. Enough preemptive damage will end that before it begins, so the Hero can walk on without a scratch.
After the final round of hanafude, food is the only source of energy. More often than not I have a need to spend my pow in those last two rounds, so I reach the final checkpoint with 5 at the most, and that's gone in the 1st ejac. At the very least I try to hold on to 1 food for between them.


I won't understand what you mean until you tell me about the 440 dungeon you cleared, or indicate which of your above characters can solo a 300.

Actually I'm not. The numerical example I gave you illustrates my point. It might be that we're referring to the same thing but with different terminology. The red, blue and green raw stats assigned to each hero affect not just the frequency in which they encounter enemies, treasure chests and hunting spots but also to the number of attacks they deal per round with respect to their encounter.

Hence a hero with a 3 stat to red = (Damage) x3 with the 3rd attack modified depending on special move when one of the trash or bounty enemies is encountered.

Conversely if same hero has 8 stat to blue = (Damage) x8 when a hunting ground is encountered.

Obviously the higher the raw stat, the more likely that hero is going to take on the encounter it's meant for. So a horse thief with (3,7,6) is much better for support but useless as squad captain because of the low number of attacks against enemies in the field.

Unless ALL of your heroes have the property 衝撃波, they do not do preemptive damage against enemies. If you don't believe me, try counting up those numbers which rack up each time your hero encounters an enemy/treasure chest/hunting ground and see if they match the raw stats. All those numbers by the way are the result of your hero playing hanafuda FOR EACH ROUND with the damage separated into tiers.

I'll be impressed if you've cleared a 300 difficulty dungeon using a 1-hero party (no restrictions on magic level bar the maximum each squad allows). I have cleared a 300 difficulty dungeon (呪われた館) with a 3 man team with one casualty, getting to the town was difficult but ransacking it smashed through what little health the squad leader had. Fortunately my support crew picked up the pieces and escaped intact. Had I gone in with a team using Mariel's restrictions, the support crew would have been smashed but the captain surviving. Pictures attached.

I expect your 3-man teams can pull off the same job without losing a single member, unlike the A-team which scraped through the 440 dungeon.

Like I said, you have a huge advantage in terms of your items and artifacts yet somehow your A-team was distinctly unimpressive in terms of skills and class selection. I fully expect your strongest heroes to wipe the floor with anything I can come up with.

Addendum: 紋章官: Livery officer? There's an entry in wikipedia which links to English. If "Officer of arms" is too wordy for you, "herald" will do nicely.

 

[enkephalin07]

Re: [新作]Way2

Artifacts aren't everything, their value depends on what properties they can supply that the characters don't have. I've looked over Marielle's swords, and even leaving aside Omusubi, the skill sets aren't that great. Semirama's are much more impressive; even Chiroru puts out better skill sets, and at lvl 10s. So I started pumping out lowbie heros to take the surplus # artifacts piling up and farm Semirana and Chiroru some fame and loot.

Now I have two heros who can solo 360 without artifacts, though I have 2 ### artifacts, I'm hesitant to give any at the rate of turnover on top heros. The last one I gave Excalibur to had to solo because his power level was too high to bring anyone who could support him, and the most he can handle is 520, 40 over his power.

If you don't believe me, try counting up those numbers which rack up each time your hero encounters an enemy/treasure chest/hunting ground and see if they match the raw stats.

Yes, I do have quite a great range of numbers along those stats to observe, and your contentions do contradict them. You can test encounter rate yourself on the 20 difficulty; high red easily gets enough bounties for the search option, low red will have to run the route a few times to get a 1# artifact. Since I habitually add courage and intellect to the nutsack, their initiative varies little by class, and they get the same number of preemptive attacks the regardless of red. Btw, monsters also get preemptive attacks, which is why you take some damage even if your last special appears to OHK; if they survive your preemptive, they deal theirs before the fast hanafuda begins.

There are no preemptive attacks in search/hunt, nor do heroes take damage from it. The blue/green does determine how many times they'll try if they fail, that's why you'll only see the difference at higher difficulties. If the difficulty is beyond their power level, it won't make a difference whether the number is 3 or 8.

Maxing out all frequencies to the same rate defeats the purpose. In ponidog's own explanation of these he made the same recommendation; front heroes should have more red, support chats should have less red, more blue. I'd also recommend giving front fighters more sun and wind seeds, support chars more moon,fire,water.

EDIT: Water for more life obviously. Higher difficulty reduces the cards they have, but moon and fire helps lowbies exceed their difficulty and keep farming out of their league.

 

[Harleyquin13]

Re: [新作]Way2

Artifacts aren't everything, their value depends on what properties they can supply that the characters don't have. I've looked over Marielle's swords, and even leaving aside Omusubi, the skill sets aren't that great. Semirama's are much more impressive; even Chiroru puts out better skill sets, and at lvl 10s. So I started pumping out lowbie heros to take the surplus # artifacts piling up and farm Semirana and Chiroru some fame and loot.

Now I have two heros who can solo 360 without artifacts, though I have 2 ### artifacts, I'm hesitant to give any at the rate of turnover on top heros. The last one I gave Excalibur to had to solo because his power level was too high to bring anyone who could support him, and the most he can handle is 520, 40 over his power.

Yes, I do have quite a great range of numbers along those stats to observe, and your contentions do contradict them. You can test encounter rate yourself on the 20 difficulty; high red easily gets enough bounties for the search option, low red will have to run the route a few times to get a 1# artifact. Since I habitually add courage and intellect to the nutsack, their initiative varies little by class, and they get the same number of preemptive attacks the regardless of red. Btw, monsters also get preemptive attacks, which is why you take some damage even if your last special appears to OHK; if they survive your preemptive, they deal theirs before the fast hanafuda begins.

There are no preemptive attacks in search/hunt, nor do heroes take damage from it. The blue/green does determine how many times they'll try if they fail, that's why you'll only see the difference at higher difficulties. If the difficulty is beyond their power level, it won't make a difference whether the number is 3 or 8.

Maxing out all frequencies to the same rate defeats the purpose. In ponidog's own explanation of these he made the same recommendation; front heroes should have more red, support chats should have less red, more blue. I'd also recommend giving front fighters more sun and wind seeds, support chars more moon,fire,water.

EDIT: Water for more life obviously. Higher difficulty reduces the cards they have, but moon and fire helps lowbies exceed their difficulty and keep farming out of their league.

Skills stack for heroes, so those with multiple 力の円 and 守り from skills and artifacts are much tougher than their peers. There's no problem giving an artifact to a hero who already possesses that skill in question, especially if it's class-specific.

You and I are not talking on the same wavelength at all. Since you absolutely don't believe anything I type regarding this topic, read this

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and in particular the following information:

　内部的には花札バトルをオート実行している
　各バトルの最後は三枠目の奥義を使用し、大きなダメージを与える
　例:剣術Lv9なら縦に最大9個ダメージが並び、三枠目の奥義を覚えていれば9個目が大ダメージになる

　通常パネル
　赤パネル … 「剣術Lv」回 花札バトルを行う
　緑パネル … 「探索Lv」回 花札バトルを行う
　青パネル … 「狩猟Lv」回 花札バトルを行う
　倒せなかった場合ダメージを受け、失敗扱いになる。(失敗すると宝箱や羊を得られない)

　道中の太陽(賞金首)パネル
　「剣術Lv」回 花札バトルを試行し、倒せなかった場合ダメージを受け、次枠の英雄が戦闘を行う

　ボスパネル(6枚目)
　「剣術Lv」回 花札バトルを試行し、倒せなかった場合ダメージを受け、英雄が力尽きていなければもう一度戦闘を行う

You can figure out the above yourself without any difficulty, but if you doubt what other players have to say on this topic then there's little else I can do to convince you. All things being equal, heroes with an equal level of special tiles during creation are going to differ in power levels depending on their eventual CLASS. What you understand as "pre-emptive damage" is really the result of the FIRST Hanafuda round, if your hero clears the preset number barrier then he/she proceeds unharmed. Monsters do not do preemptive damage on your heroes (as far as I've observed up to 300 difficulty dungeons). The game mechanics basically give heroes priority in dealing damage during each hanafuda round before monsters deal their own if they are not finished off for the round.

It goes without saying that dungeons far above a hero's power level are going to see failure after failure regardless of the task at hand and the hero's own raw statistics. Regardless for dungeons the heroes CAN handle those raw stats are a big difference between getting that hunting ground secured or getting injured from a random enemy en-route to towns.

Regarding the encounter probabilities during expeditions, here's what this

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has to say:

効果:
①探索行における各種マスの出現率に影響
　1 : 1 : 1 とした場合
　1 + 剣術 : 1 + 探索 : 1 + 狩猟 Lvの比率で各マスの出現確率が変更
　1 / 1 / 9 Lv なら 2 : 2 : 10 の比率割合で出現する
②各マスでの花札バトル試行回数に利用

As for the seed tiles, you might want to tally up exactly how many wind tiles you use. According to

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:

勇気の種 太陽 強敵に効果
調和の種 月 場札を増やす
力の種 炎 手札を増やす
叡智の種 風 先制射撃 MAX5
魔力の種 大地 初期POW増加
生命の種 水 ライフ増加

取得方法:
　TOP1の女の子に注いだ特殊種は無制限に反映される

2、3人目の扱い:
　TOP2の女の子はある程度カットされる？(要検証)
　TOP3の女の子は一部位につきMAX4まで。
　(恐らくおま○こ/奉仕/アナルそれぞれ4つ 合計12まで？)

The 1st half is from the game's manual, but the rest is from trial and error by the other players. Take it or leave it, but by the looks of things both combat and support characters benefit from as many tiles of all kinds (bar wind up to 5, earth not highest priority) as possible.

I'm fully aware that having equal frequency for all three areas isn't exactly that crucial, but you've ignored my examples where I specifically mention what role each hero is designed to perform. Yeadow heroes are naturally support since they get +1 blue in exchange for -1 to red compared to balanced characters, while Marielle characters focus on classes with a potential 8 to red allowing them to reach the maximum of 9. These coupled with the right skills are the perfect tournament runners and squad captains.

Combat or support regardless, all of my heroes are expected to pull their weight on all of the named dungeons for 名誉 and 略奪. That's why I am not especially fond of heroes with 3 to red since they take longer to clear the simple dungeons. If they have at least 8 to blue, I may promote them to act as support for future heroes.

If you haven't skipped over everything I just typed above, one last

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for you to consider. I expect you're doing most of these things already, but you might have overlooked something that could further improve your heroes.

 

[enkephalin07]

Re: [新作]Way2

I have no internet access, I've been posting from my phone since Sunday, so I don't have the tool-assistance to translate, and kanji over 12 strokes is a bitch to read on this display. I don't believe any ETA on repairs by this point, so I probably won't have an update this Sat. I'll be doing graphic replacement, which is going to be painstakingly slow anyway.

I thought I might have some code corruption in recompiling, so I restored the original files and loaded a save I backed up before modding, but I still see the same problems. The fit combos I'm able to get aren't the same as listed in the wiki, and I have been seeing the 'spirit sealed' messages flying by, but Ninya is the only one who consistently gets the jewels, Chiroru and Selica occasionally, Semirama and Yeadow only once that I can recall. I'm playing 1.50; have any of these mechanics updated in 1.51?

W/regards to red/blue roles, I think you still aren't grasping the power differential in the teams who are able to clear upper difficulties. The power levels of heroes able to fit in a team with the hero capable of leading will be so much lower as to render any 'weight' they could possibly pull marginal at best and out of the question at worst. To combat-orient the support slots will leave them woefully under-utilized, especially if you just went with a power duo of equal levels. Bringing up their combat frequency just diminishes the role they can most usefully perform; farming meat. And that's the power of teamwork in this case, not, as you'd suggest, stubbornly bringing along cherry tapping stragglers.

 

[Harleyquin13]

Re: [新作]Way2

I have no internet access, I've been posting from my phone since Sunday, so I don't have the tool-assistance to translate, and kanji over 12 strokes is a bitch to read on this display. I don't believe any ETA on repairs by this point, so I probably won't have an update this Sat. I'll be doing graphic replacement, which is going to be painstakingly slow anyway.

I thought I might have some code corruption in recompiling, so I restored the original files and loaded a save I backed up before modding, but I still see the same problems. The fit combos I'm able to get aren't the same as listed in the wiki, and I have been seeing the 'spirit sealed' messages flying by, but Ninya is the only one who consistently gets the jewels, Chiroru and Selica occasionally, Semirama and Yeadow only once that I can recall. I'm playing 1.50; have any of these mechanics updated in 1.51?

W/regards to red/blue roles, I think you still aren't grasping the power differential in the teams who are able to clear upper difficulties. The power levels of heroes able to fit in a team with the hero capable of leading will be so much lower as to render any 'weight' they could possibly pull marginal at best and out of the question at worst. To combat-orient the support slots will leave them woefully under-utilized, especially if you just went with a power duo of equal levels. Bringing up their combat frequency just diminishes the role they can most usefully perform; farming meat. And that's the power of teamwork in this case, not, as you'd suggest, stubbornly bringing along cherry tapping stragglers.

I'm still using 1.50 and have no problems with the just-fit combinations. Since I don't mess around with code doing translations, it's a problem on your end.

When your machine gets fixed, you can read what I posted at your leisure if you so fancy.

"Spirit sealing" is independent of jewels by the way. From the wiki:

・部位のLOS効果を狙う場合はPow値と羞恥パネルに気をつけること。射精玉の中身が邪魔したり料理の素質が邪魔をすることがよくある
　精力が尽きて空打ちになったり等、様々なことを考慮しよう

Since you lack machine translating tools, a rough and ready translation would be:

"If you're aiming for the LOS effect for each zone, be careful of your POW gauge and status of your shame panels. Missing out on the LOS effect (jewels) is often due to mistakes when loading up the sack, tiles from cooking bonuses interfering with the desired combination, the player running out of hearts before the ejaculation phase finishes etc. Take care and plan ahead!"

I fully appreciate your point about powerful heroes with the right set of skills being so strong that class becomes a minor issue due to the skill sets and artifacts contributing more to the hero's power and longevity. However you're probably the only English-speaking player who can boast multiple ***-grade artifacts rendering even the weakest class capable of soloing 300+ dungeons. In addition, you keep arguing that your understanding of the game mechanics is correct when the info from the manual and the wiki contradicts you in parts.

You're still not acknowledging the issue. You could have lower-power heroes supporting a dungeon-killer but they could perform their roles MUCH better if they were the right class. After all, you admit yourself that all the support heroes have to do is farm meat, so why not create low-power heroes with Yeadow as the main girl but with classes such as the hunter or Nazgul (9 to blue)? Even if they are as you say unlikely to farm the meat from 300 level dungeons, they have a small chance (even if it's 1%) of actually succeeding due to the frequency of their "attacks" when faced with hunting grounds.

Similarly if you're creating the perfect dungeon killer capable of soloing Gehenna, what's wrong with squeezing every last advantage out of the skills and artifacts available by making a class that's innately high on red? (黒の御子, 龍騎士 go as high as 8 on balanced girls)

It's your game so you can play it as you see fit. Dismissing what I have to say by dodging the issue or claiming "My heroes are so buffed from skills and artifacts that I couldn't care less about class since all I care about are high-level dungeons" isn't very convincing. It's not like everyone has your in-game advantages.

 

[enkephalin07]

Re: [新作]Way2

I fully appreciate your point about powerful heroes with the right set of skills being so strong that class becomes a minor issue due to the skill sets and artifacts contributing more to the hero's power and longevity

No, you completely missed my point about artifacts and power levels not being everything, and every point about building the necessary team. My point was closer to, "Here's what I got, but throwing numbers at it isn't doing the job."

Look at the ratio of your team's power levels to the difficulty level they're capable of clearing. Now project that forward to the difficulty you want to reach and see where it comes up against the max capacity of a team.

Weighting the power forward to the lead improves the party's capability since that is where the great majority of damage is dealt and taken. The combat utility of rear members is sharply diminished even at their best balance, and that difference compounds with the difference in power levels.

At any scale, they just can't contribute much to combat, but they can contribute what the lead should not be occupied with; gathering food. The lead needs to get regular bounties to keep up healing, and can't do that if they're getting green and blue tiles. The rear members need to limit their exposure to combat; every red tile is a tile that instead of gathering food, they're wearing themselves down for no gain to themselves, no gain to the leader, no gain to the party. That's not a good definition of 'pulling their weight'.

 

[Harleyquin13]

Re: [新作]Way2

No, you completely missed my point about artifacts and power levels not being everything, and every point about building the necessary team. My point was closer to, "Here's what I got, but throwing numbers at it isn't doing the job."

Look at the ratio of your team's power levels to the difficulty level they're capable of clearing. Now project that forward to the difficulty you want to reach and see where it comes up against the max capacity of a team.

Weighting the power forward to the lead improves the party's capability since that is where the great majority of damage is dealt and taken. The combat utility of rear members is sharply diminished even at their best balance, and that difference compounds with the difference in power levels.

At any scale, they just can't contribute much to combat, but they can contribute what the lead should not be occupied with; gathering food. The lead needs to get regular bounties to keep up healing, and can't do that if they're getting green and blue tiles. The rear members need to limit their exposure to combat; every red tile is a tile that instead of gathering food, they're wearing themselves down for no gain to themselves, no gain to the leader, no gain to the party. That's not a good definition of 'pulling their weight'.

So what's wrong with building a team that looks like this:

Lead: 龍騎士/黒の御子 Mariel+ 2 other girls 9/6/4
2nd: 狩人 Yeadow 4/6/9
3rd: 呪戦士 Yeadow 7/8/9

This fits your requirement of 2 food gatherers with a lead character completely focused on killing things.

Despite this, you dismiss the above combination for reasons such as "this team is pointless because the combat score on the 3rd member is too high while the 2nd member is just as likely to get green tiles instead of blue".

Probability isn't all that skewed in favour of the highest number. Even for the 2nd character, there's maybe 50-60% chance that blue tiles turn up. You could create a hero with zero ranks to red and green for maximum farming ability, but is it absolutely guaranteed to hit farming tiles ALL the time and successfully secure them?

Funny thing is, you've not bothered considering class at all in your calculations. Since the characters you make are so strong due to skills and artifacts, you don't care what class they end up so long as they have power ratings exceeding 500. All I'm stating is a 500 rating 龍騎士 would do a much better job with the same set of skills and non class-specific artifacts compared to say the Highlander.

 

[enkephalin07]

Re: [新作]Way2

So what's wrong with building a team that looks like this:

Lead: 龍騎士/黒の御子 Mariel+ 2 other girls 9/6/4
2nd: 狩人 Yeadow 4/6/9
3rd: 呪戦士 Yeadow 7/8/9

This fits your requirement of 2 food gatherers with a lead character completely focused on killing things.

Despite this, you dismiss the above combination for reasons such as "this team is pointless because the combat score on the 3rd member is too high while the 2nd member is just as likely to get green tiles instead of blue".

No, the first two look reasonably close to ideal, but I don't understand the choice of the last. He'll be seeing more action than he needs to, and do we know that green is that valuable at this stage of the game? Seems like it should, or it would be an extremely lopsided mechanic, but I don't see what that purpose would be. I haven't been able to make a viable character without 6 at least.

Probability isn't all that skewed in favour of the highest number. Even for the 2nd character, there's maybe 50-60% chance that blue tiles turn up. You could create a hero with zero ranks to red and green for maximum farming ability, but is it absolutely guaranteed to hit farming tiles ALL the time and successfully secure them?

Well, even if it's possible to get it as low as 0, I'd assume it's a modifier rather than the base probability. There is a bias toward combat though, so the higher the rate gets, the more it edges out the other probabilities.

When I looked through some old heroes, I noticed that Semirama and Ninya used to make swords with Omusubi, too. So I should be able to get that first skill from Marielle, and know that I know what to watch and listen for, I'm still not getting it. Until I get it, I'm going to ramp up Semi's score potential so she'll set the core skill set. I had tried to use a crystal gazer shadow hero to cut Marielle and Yeadow out by providing the elements himself, but it's not an effective substitute. Don't those colored tiles he seeds with modify rates or just weak points?

Right now I'm just cranking out experimental heros from all the classes, many good for the Arena, but not upper dungeons. I've noticed something interesting about Black Hands and Celestial Heirs; they're very good at finding Capitals. It's not in the wiki, but you can build a castle for 180 if you find a Capital >140 difficulty. It's not fully implemented so you just get the same properties as a castle on the lake and one room with everything crammed together in it. But the interface has been partially coded, and you're supposed to be able to design the layout yourself, and add things like lawn furniture, statuary, ponds, beaches and even the heroines from the harem. That could be pending a future update.

 

[Harleyquin13]

Re: [新作]Way2

No, the first two look reasonably close to ideal, but I don't understand the choice of the last. He'll be seeing more action than he needs to, and do we know that green is that valuable at this stage of the game? Seems like it should, or it would be an extremely lopsided mechanic, but I don't see what that purpose would be. I haven't been able to make a viable character without 6 at least.

Well, even if it's possible to get it as low as 0, I'd assume it's a modifier rather than the base probability. There is a bias toward combat though, so the higher the rate gets, the more it edges out the other probabilities.

When I looked through some old heroes, I noticed that Semirama and Ninya used to make swords with Omusubi, too. So I should be able to get that first skill from Marielle, and know that I know what to watch and listen for, I'm still not getting it. Until I get it, I'm going to ramp up Semi's score potential so she'll set the core skill set. I had tried to use a crystal gazer shadow hero to cut Marielle and Yeadow out by providing the elements himself, but it's not an effective substitute. Don't those colored tiles he seeds with modify rates or just weak points?

Right now I'm just cranking out experimental heros from all the classes, many good for the Arena, but not upper dungeons. I've noticed something interesting about Black Hands and Celestial Heirs; they're very good at finding Capitals. It's not in the wiki, but you can build a castle for 180 if you find a Capital >140 difficulty. It's not fully implemented so you just get the same properties as a castle on the lake and one room with everything crammed together in it. But the interface has been partially coded, and you're supposed to be able to design the layout yourself, and add things like lawn furniture, statuary, ponds, beaches and even the heroines from the harem. That could be pending a future update.

You could easily have 2 狩人 with 4/6/9 rather than one, but nothing really is perfect for your purposes so...

There's a "bias" towards combat in the sense that the lead hero ALWAYS fights a boss character after 6 tiles. The author and the wiki state that the base probability for encounters is even at 1/3 before modification from the raw stats. My "unsuitable" support heroes work just fine mining out more green and blue tiles than they do red. If you're interested, text from the wiki is as follows:

　1 + 剣術 : 1 + 探索 : 1 + 狩猟 Lvの比率で各マスの出現確率が変更
　1 / 1 / 9 Lv なら 2 : 2 : 10 の比率割合で出現する

Speculation from the wiki on hero skills as follows:

もし単純に一枠目おま○こ 二枠目奉仕 三枠目アナルなら、一枠目はおむすびと考えて 奉仕とアナルの魔法石を優先的に10づつ集めて召喚石にしておいた方がいいかも？

Any hero I create from Haine and Semirama never sees おむすび or 乾し肉 any more. Heroes like Serica still have the old problem as do the newer girls who I have yet to develop.

No idea what you mean when you assert a hero "provides" elements himself. Not sure what you're referring to when talking about "coloured seeds" either. If you're going to use a hero, there's really no reason to have anything less than A,A,A,A for the seed characteristics. Hero elements are completely irrelevant to the elemental assignments for each ejaculation area.

The Arena is fun to compare the relative power ratings of your own heroes and their ability to take heads, but it's not a good indicator for dungeon exploration. The heroes you're spawning by now completely overwhelm the (very weak) set heroes provided by default with the game. Support heroes lose 80-90% of the time to combat-oriented heroes with roughly the same set of skills.

Again, I put forward an argument regarding the importance of classes to making heroes and you just ignore anything I write which goes against your undestanding. ANY hero capable of surviving a 150 difficulty dungeon can raise castles so long as the accompanying support crew has 16-17 combined in blue stats. My 黒の御子 at 9,6,4 has his own castle and didn't have to work very hard thanks to good support. For my support crews, I can get a castle 1st time round (assuming enough meat and cash) 50-60% of the time with 2 heroes with 8 blue.

Here's the original text from the wiki which you missed:

羊40＋難度150以上の「裕福な村」で最大規模の城（価150or180）が買える。

Once you get your machine translators fixed, the above should be self-explanatory. Two 狩人/呪戦士 from Yeadow gets you 18 blue from support, from there even the most combat-oriented lead hero with less than 5 blue WILL get the necessary 40 meat required (might require one or two tries, but it will happen).

No advantage to designing your own layout if you can't hold more items than a regular castle. In addition, the 180 model is given the same name as the 150 so wait for the patch that does unleash full functionality.

 

[enkephalin07]

Re: [新作]Way2

I've determined I have a buggy installation, even a fresh and unpatched install has the same problems; no fit combos, but insertion with no elements always fits. The elemental shuffle itself is wrong, and fails to get the correct class. At least I know it's not my modding or the decompiler at fault.

but nothing really is perfect for your purposes so...

There's a *roll eyes* eyes emotion around here, isn't there. I bet you have the time to look for it.

 

[Harleyquin13]

Re: [新作]Way2

I've determined I have a buggy installation, even a fresh and unpatched install has the same problems; no fit combos, but insertion with no elements always fits. The elemental shuffle itself is wrong, and fails to get the correct class. At least I know it's not my modding or the decompiler at fault.

There's a *roll eyes* eyes emotion around here, isn't there. I bet you have the time to look for it.

Prior to 1.41, earth and water were swapped around so the element chart did not correspond exactly with the one with Haro. Haine has just-fit with nothing on which has been the case since the start, get it with other characters and you definitely have a problem.

Apologies for "overloading" your with information which you are so clearly aware of. Time spent looking up pointless emoticons in this forum is better spent on getting out new characters in this game; not that you'd be too bothered about how others waste their time.

 

[enkephalin07]

Re: [新作]Way2

Prior to 1.41, earth and water were swapped around so the element chart did not correspond exactly with the one with Haro. Haine has just-fit with nothing on which has been the case since the start, get it with other characters and you definitely have a problem.

Apologies for "overloading" your with information which you are so clearly aware of. Time spent looking up pointless emoticons in this forum is better spent on getting out new characters in this game; not that you'd be too bothered about how others waste their time.

You know, I think I only tolerate your obnoxiousness because you're the only English speaker who will talk about this game! You'd think there's be some active thread on Hongfire out of the 144 downloads (at last count) of the patch. But no; any thread that isn't Illusion gets nothing but lurkers and dummies asking questions that are already answered in the thread, wiki or FAQ, or all three, or occasionally someone will delurk with a novel issue that hasn't been addressed, but whether he gets an answer or not we will never know because he just fucks off, never to be seen again.

Anyway, I have listened to you about classes, and do have something to say but it just never got into my messages. Just because I haven't answered doesn't mean I'm ignoring you, it's just that some of us don't filibuster every post.

Besides, I'm having a bit of trouble experiencing them as extensively as I should before I can give any informed answer. I didn't really set out to make Arena combatants, it just happened that my experiments resulted in heros not suitable for adventuring, bit kick ass in Arena. Dungeon crawling is still the best way to evaluate their qualities.

 

[Harleyquin13]

Re: [新作]Way2

One is obnoxious, the other selectively ignores anything which doesn't mesh with established concepts. It cuts both ways. If you don't like the long walls of text I've been putting up lately, say so and I'll try and break it up into smaller chunks provided the forum doesn't crash quite so often.

Any arena fighter with 9 red and skills like 闇の帳, 一騎当千 and コルキス tends to perform much better than heroes with say 6 red but with a combination of two skills like メテオストライク and 神武虚空剣. I know which one I would take to tackle the high-level dungeons though.

 

[enkephalin07]

Re: [新作]Way2

One is obnoxious, the other selectively ignores anything which doesn't mesh with established concepts. It cuts both ways.

Holy shit, kettle! Do really think I'm blacker than you? Before your accusation, I thought -- nay, fantasized since it obviously can't become reality -- that you might take as sincere comments such as "I'm not ignoring you" and "I haven't fucked with the code". In fact I'm pretty sure you're being deliberately obtuse about any thing you can't prove wrong in such a way as to grind someone's face into it rather than carry on with the conversation, so content with point made as to leave no need for belaborment of it.

EDIT: You know, every time you proved me wrong, I thought "Well,that settles that." I did not know you needed a cookie every fucking time. I don't know how many cookies you're due now -- you're the only one keeping score.

 

[Harleyquin13]

Re: [新作]Way2

Holy shit, kettle! Do really think I'm blacker than you? Before your accusation, I thought -- nay, fantasized since it obviously can't become reality -- that you might take as sincere comments such as "I'm not ignoring you" and "I haven't fucked with the code". In fact I'm pretty sure you're being deliberately obtuse about any thing you can't prove wrong in such a way as to grind someone's face into it rather than carry on with the conversation, so content with point made as to leave no need for belaborment of it.

EDIT: You know, every time you proved me wrong, I thought "Well,that settles that." I did not know you needed a cookie every fucking time. I don't know how many cookies you're due now -- you're the only one keeping score.

No need for cookies. Some of us get perverse enjoyment out of being right every once in a while. Nothing to get TOO excited about.

If anything, I'm giving you even more motivation to finish your English patch. Once you perfect it and get others to join in on your enjoyment on the game, you have the option (if you hadn't exercised it by now) of permanently ignoring whatever I type.

I've reached the point where I can soon retire from the game myself. Just a few more characters to confirm some hypothesis in my head and I'll have done as much as I can with the equipment I have. Plenty of other games I need to crack on with and this one has given me plenty of enjoyment. Unless something new comes up, I'll be satisfied with filling my roster the way it is.