[Other] How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and others

Cleanfeel

Demon Girl
Sep 28, 2015
93
8
#1
I love the works that I'm seeing on Patreon regarding english games. However, I wish to write some thoughts and use games like Kingdom of Deception to describe what I think would take corruption games to the next level of realism and enjoyment.

What I believe that more creators should do is write with a more invested mindset into the characters you're creating. In the face of terror and new realms of depravity, how your characters act should be natural: just like how you would act if you were in their position.

Take KoD by the wonderful Sierra Lee and Nomo. Sabia is a general. Even more, she is a woman general who has worked her way up the ranks with her skills, charisma, intellect, and strength. She's family with powerful politicians in her kingdom, a great and independent woman. So why does she fall so easily to jerking off lowly orcs for 8 gold coins?

What I'm trying to say, is breaking such a strong mind cannot be so simple. It should not be so fast. It should adapt a more Akubar style approach where the willingness is elastic. Where if you push too far, the girl will snap. You have to play your cards just right for them to bend further into depravity.

Let's take the beginning scene of KoD to when she starts working at the pleasure tents to show what I mean. When the great Sabia is surrounded by orcs, she does not beg (which I totally love thank you for writing that option and her refusal). But when she's on the ground, at the mercy of lowly orcs, she should NOT be yelping and crying like a little bitch. Instead, she should either (try her best not to make any noise to show her captives that she's afraid/intimidated/turned on) or (yell insults at them, and tries to fight back consistently). In terms of gameplay, when she physically fights back, the rocs should hit her back, as they should. Now I'm not asking for gore, or fucked up illustrations, but at least be a little bit considerate into how real savages act. She should bite the cock of the orc that fucks her mouth, and the orc will hit her more. That's the Sabia that is fun to see. This is rarely done in any games, this resilience of the mind, this realistic fight for survival that real people (Men and Women) will do in their darkest hours.

When she wakes up in her tent, she rightly sweeps the floors or whatever. But she should NOT be inclined to go suck some dicks because they make more money. Sabia is a royal? blood, proud general. She should at least be paid 2000 gold to do that kind of stuff. No, she won't do it. (at least not yet anyway, or not by FREE WILL). Some great scenes that you can write with this kind of attitude is that she goes demanding for that much money, and the orcs have their way with her. She then injures one, and gets her ass kicked. Then, she won't go back to the tents until she's forced to (isn't that a more realistic reaction?).

Now that's all in terms of writing. What you can do in terms of gameplay and storytelling is to have a sanity meter. You stretch her too much, she becomes a coward and won't take risks. She won't do the dirty willingly, and she's submissive. Another words, shes broken. Let's say there's 4 levels of sanity. The highest being resilient, middle being stable, and low being breaking. If you go beyond breaking, she's broken. She regenerates sanity points by doing scenes that she already experienced (such as HJ and BJs). She loses points, though not as much, when she does double BJ. She loses more points when she gets spit roasted. She completely flat out breaks when she's gang raped.

Thing is, as a developer, I know that the kind of immersion we're talking about are simple if else statements. The hardest part (imo) about game development is the art, music, and world building. The kind of changes I'm proposing to all games (not just KoD) would require a considerably large amount of writing the different dialog. But that's only writing. The assets can be reused. The scenes can be reused. Through simple words, maybe changing a paragraph or two depending on her sanity, can drastically change game immersion. I don't know how hard it is to write logic in renpy, but I don't think it's that hard seeing that games like Teacher's Pet do it really well.

Anyway, I hope you all can implement some of this kind of...personal touches to games. Don't isolate yourself from the experience of your characters. Think, how would I personally feel if I was a great general of x kingdom getting gang raped by orcs. How would I personally feel, if I, the great general, was thinking about sucking some dicks for 8 gold rather than 1 gold. A little personal immersion can make your games so much better.
 

Kemious

Jungle Girl
Feb 17, 2011
12
3
#2
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

I feel the need to interject. TO begin with K.O.D isn't exactly a corruption game it does have a corruption element.

As for your first arguement Sabia does do her best to remind cool and calm when attacked by the orcs, however the simple is she is severely out numbered and trying to do everything in her power to survive.

That same trying to survive element is a part of her choices depending on what you chose to have her do. She knows she doesn't have the power or authority to do the things she wants to do. She's not broken but she's realistically trying to survive which makes her do things that she normally wouldn't do.

I think K.O.D is brilliant as is and I look forward in the directionn it shall go
 

Darkstrain

Evard's Tentacles of Forced Intrusion
Aug 26, 2013
592
28
#3
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

the op should have posted on the K.o.d thread since 99% of the subject is that game, and as said above, it's not even a game where corruption is the main fetish...
 

thswherizat

Evard's Tentacles of Forced Intrusion
Jul 4, 2011
740
28
#4
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Yeah this isn't open ended at all, it's a specific reference to how one game could/should improve.

With that said, I do think authors in corruption games focus too much on the changing personality, and not enough on who the character is at the start of the game.
 

Nomo

Demon Girl Master
Aug 2, 2015
165
28
#5
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Thanks for the feedback, but you seem to misunderstand Sabia as a character and where we are going with Kingdom of Deception. She really isnt a typical damsel in distress that gets shy and flustered like the typical maidens in hentai games. And while she is a noble as you said, she also spend her life as a foot soldier and not in luxury. So she is a lot stronger and more determined than the women you seem to think of.

As for the corruption, as pointed above, while Sabia's character allows for different paths where she sees using her body worthy to achieve her goals faster, or where she would prefer being more dominant sexually, or a completely sexless route, we are not interesting in a path with a broken cock lusting husk of an mc to show all we have planned in the future of the KoD universe.

So while we do have a lot planned in sexual content, Sabia will always stay worthy of respect and the things she does with her body, will matter or result in her achieving her goals one way or another.
 
Nov 26, 2009
1,513
63
#6
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Does anyone else think the majority of games these days treat rape too tamely?

It's meant to be a pretty horrible devastating thing to happen to a woman, yet most recent games depict rape as causing the woman to moan like a cheap whore who gets off on being violated and used.

When the chick goes "Oh, why does does this feel soooo good, oooh" it kinda ruins the illusion.
Especially as most corruption games start off with this weak personality.
Despair Labyrinth is one of the few games that does pure maidens right. (its a real shame Takimaru stopped dev on it)


Its especially weird in games like DiCK where if you loose you get <s>raped</s> surprise sexed and if you win you... have the option to sex the attacker.
Thats not a rape element, thats a fight for who gets to go on top.
 
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ponyguy3000

Demon Girl Master
Jan 10, 2017
278
63
#7
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Sabia will always stay worthy of respect and the things she does with her body, will matter or result in her achieving her goals one way or another.
Well, that's a bummer. Was hoping for at least some kind of mind break route. Oh well. Maybe in the next game. :(
 

Keyen

Evard's Tentacles of Forced Intrusion
Feb 29, 2016
637
28
#8
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Well, that's a bummer. Was hoping for at least some kind of mind break route. Oh well. Maybe in the next game. :(
It's the case in the game overs. But not in the main story.
 

ponyguy3000

Demon Girl Master
Jan 10, 2017
278
63
#9
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

It's the case in the game overs. But not in the main story.
Yeah, but the game overs aren't routes. I love them. They're great. But I was hoping that the more submissive I played and the more I whored her out I'd get to affect her personality more. Get her to like it more and eventually stray into some kind of sex slave path. Where Sabia is still in it for revenge, but now she loves getting violated randomly in the middle of the camp and will settle for being Tekrok's pet once it's all over. Kind of like Riven.
 

NLL

Demon Girl Pro
Nov 7, 2015
140
18
#10
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Does anyone else think the majority of games these days treat rape too tamely?

It's meant to be a pretty horrible devastating thing to happen to a woman, yet most recent games depict rape as causing the woman to moan like a cheap whore who gets off on being violated and used.
I'm no hentai historian, but isn't this an old trope? It's what happens when you aim to eroticise rape, I think. You try to remove the really ugly parts. It's kind of how the Looney Tunes can be violent, but still don't show any blood or gore, you know?
 

uguu123

Demon Girl
Nov 10, 2013
95
8
#11
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

pretty long read/unusual meta thread but I agree with your core message(if I understood).

It's about competent writing to make the characters feel believable, and gradual storytelling to make the corruption feel plausible.
A proper corruption game has notable time spent on foreshadowing and character buildup. ScaleGarden is a nice example.

You see bad/lazy writing cliches everywhere in H though, ie. the thousands of bad NTR works nowadays. Because the adult scene is mostly doujin/indie, can't be helped I guess.
 
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SFrame

Sex Demon
Aug 27, 2011
296
43
#12
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

I took the OP to be a general topic, with KoD as an example.

I didn't play KoD, but different people have different levels of acceptance for their erotica. I have a similar viewpoint as the OP on the level of immersion I look for as a player. But at the same time, I do get frustrated when things get as complicated and unwieldy as real world analogues (e.g. there are some epic prudes out there; I really don't want to have to spend a full day playing a game just for 1 H scene - normally that's the amount of effort you'd put into getting actual sex xD).

You can't please them all. A dev can only pick and choose one's targeted audience, be it eroticized with stupid amounts of poetic licence or obsessively programmed to be an eligible real-life simulation, or a spectrum between the extremes.
 

habisain

Tentacle God
Jul 15, 2012
1,236
83
#13
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Thing is, as a developer, I know that the kind of immersion we're talking about are simple if else statements. The hardest part (imo) about game development is the art, music, and world building. The kind of changes I'm proposing to all games (not just KoD) would require a considerably large amount of writing the different dialog. But that's only writing. The assets can be reused. The scenes can be reused. Through simple words, maybe changing a paragraph or two depending on her sanity, can drastically change game immersion. I don't know how hard it is to write logic in renpy, but I don't think it's that hard seeing that games like Teacher's Pet do it really well.
The overall sentiment of this paragraph is something I would strongly disagree with. Immersion isn't something that can be boiled down to simple if/else statements for a start. And there is a kind of absolute arrogance to saying "that's only writing" - the implication being that you do not consider writing to be an asset in a game. If we're talking immersion, writing is critical.

I mean, take my VPM translation. Is my English version more immersive for an English player than the Japanese version? Yes - and the only thing that's changed is the writing. And to be quite blunt, nothing much happens in most of the H-scenes; I could've replaced the text in the H-scenes with just simple statements like "Brigit got fucked by tentacles. Brigit came because she was fucked.", which is still writing, but not immersive.

And you even state that it would be a "considerably large" amount of writing. Well, to do writing well, it takes time! When do you want the H-game - in a reasonable amount of time, or far, far into the future?

If you're going to try and do an immersive game, the programming and the writing are as much assets as the art, music and world building. You've come across as someone who fundamentally does not understand game development - and perhaps as someone who hasn't really considered how one might actually plan a large scale project such as a game.
 

Yoshiiki

Grim Reaper
Aug 29, 2016
773
93
#14
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

I fast read through all of this, so I may have skipped thing or two, sorry if repeating something.
ITT:
The devil is in the detail.
There are people that love seeing even small change in game as an effect of their actions. Girl is now corrupted? She speaks differently, even with NPCs she spoke before. She acts differently based on her corruption during scenes. Things like that.
But it's also more work for the devs and mostly what I see (mainly in Japanese games that were translated, as I can't read Japanese) is that corruption bar is just simplified to: [x] value to unlock scene.
But, as someone stated here: You can't please all people.
But you can simplify everything and put as many kinks as possible to get as many people as you can. Pure money making thinking.

All in all, I agree that corruption based games could be something much, much better if we would try going deeper into MC's mind :D
 
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hugo77

Demon Girl
Aug 1, 2016
96
8
#15
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Well, that's a bummer. Was hoping for at least some kind of mind break route. Oh well. Maybe in the next game. :(
Yea, it sucks. I thought the whole idea of branching paths was so we can end up with submissive, whore Sabia if our choices led to it.
 
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voyeurkind

Jungle Girl
Feb 13, 2017
40
0
#16
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Does anyone else think the majority of games these days treat rape too tamely?
Yes.

Honestly, I wonder why it's in a lot of these games. Sure, it's a turn on to some including me within certain boundaries (I've participated in BDSM rape scenes, but that was also a situation where the woman knew what was going to happen beforehand and could end the scene if she needed to), but especially in a corruption game, isn't the idea for the female protagonist to allow her own corruption to rise, not force it on her? More often than not, it's a turn off in these types of games.
 

xvolverk

Jungle Girl
Oct 19, 2012
13
0
#17
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Yes.

Honestly, I wonder why it's in a lot of these games. Sure, it's a turn on to some including me within certain boundaries (I've participated in BDSM rape scenes, but that was also a situation where the woman knew what was going to happen beforehand and could end the scene if she needed to), but especially in a corruption game, isn't the idea for the female protagonist to allow her own corruption to rise, not force it on her? More often than not, it's a turn off in these types of games.
So much this. I love well-done corruption, but the combination of weird rape logic and grinding for points is a huge boner kill. There are better ways.

Like I love how seeds of corruption is doing it, where the demon twins want you corrupted and so they seduce and give you a slippery slope. downside is that it's slow to develop the paths.

But if you won't do that, Crisis Cell did it really well, where the corruption is justified by drugs and brainwashing, and you just automatically get a bunch of hot scenes for playing, and all of them if you win. No bullshit where you have to lose 20 times to unlock scenes.

Or like era games erasq and eretoho k, where it's the whole game and you pick the pace of corruption, and usually need to convince the girls first. It's like yeah, if you're a sex demon who can give a girl 30 orgasms a night it's a lot more believable. and push too hard and they'll hate you, they even get 「hate seals」 to show it. Which by the way, does anyone else think more games should use tattoos or seals of corruption? That and holy shit Kuzunoha! You corrupt her from shy refined fox noble to perfect lewd waifu <3

So yeah, lot of potential out there.

If it doesn't fit the characters tho, I'm fine with not. 100% support you Nomo and Sierra, it's much hotter to have Sabia and Simon fuck on their own terms.
 

Cleanfeel

Demon Girl
Sep 28, 2015
93
8
#18
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

The overall sentiment of this paragraph is something I would strongly disagree with. Immersion isn't something that can be boiled down to simple if/else statements for a start. And there is a kind of absolute arrogance to saying "that's only writing" - the implication being that you do not consider writing to be an asset in a game. If we're talking immersion, writing is critical.

I mean, take my VPM translation. Is my English version more immersive for an English player than the Japanese version? Yes - and the only thing that's changed is the writing. And to be quite blunt, nothing much happens in most of the H-scenes; I could've replaced the text in the H-scenes with just simple statements like "Brigit got fucked by tentacles. Brigit came because she was fucked.", which is still writing, but not immersive.

And you even state that it would be a "considerably large" amount of writing. Well, to do writing well, it takes time! When do you want the H-game - in a reasonable amount of time, or far, far into the future?

If you're going to try and do an immersive game, the programming and the writing are as much assets as the art, music and world building. You've come across as someone who fundamentally does not understand game development - and perhaps as someone who hasn't really considered how one might actually plan a large scale project such as a game.
The time it takes for me to write 4 variations of a scene based on previous actions of a character that I've stored on 4 different variables in my game, vs making the illustrations, recording/finding sound clips, and maybe animation if we're talking about that kind of game, is comparatively low. It takes perhaps 1-2 hours to write based off of the existing product specification ( the draft that you do when you first plan out your game), vs it can take days to do well done drawings.

So yes, that's the difference. Maybe English isn't your first language, but it sure as hell doesn't take me a day to write a few paragraphs. The iterations and "nods" to past events don't even need to be essays. They can be done as simple as 3 sentences to add immersion. To make the player feel like that their actions matter, that the game is not a sequence of scenes, but rather one big story about your character.

I'm not aware of your VPM translation, but your work is not what I'm talking about. All you did was reskin the existing scene without adding logic. I'm talking about storing past events, having a mechanic like Akubar to store "memories" of what's unprecedented to the MC in order to add immersion. Such as writing something like "the last time the orcs beat me until I passed out when I bit one of them". But it acts that much more immersion, and divulges more about the MC's train of thought.
 

Cleanfeel

Demon Girl
Sep 28, 2015
93
8
#19
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

Does anyone else think the majority of games these days treat rape too tamely?

It's meant to be a pretty horrible devastating thing to happen to a woman, yet most recent games depict rape as causing the woman to moan like a cheap whore who gets off on being violated and used.

When the chick goes "Oh, why does does this feel soooo good, oooh" it kinda ruins the illusion.
Especially as most corruption games start off with this weak personality.
Despair Labyrinth is one of the few games that does pure maidens right. (its a real shame Takimaru stopped dev on it)


Its especially weird in games like DiCK where if you loose you get <s>raped</s> surprise sexed and if you win you... have the option to sex the attacker.
Thats not a rape element, thats a fight for who gets to go on top.
That's what I mean. Rape is an extremely traumatic experience. Just imagine, not a woman, but a man. Imagine this hunk, general, charistmatic guy getting fucked by these ugly, fat, disgusting women. What would he do in that situation. What would he think?

I think he would do everything in his power to gtfo. Even if the odds seem bad, even if he's cornered. He's the fucking general of an army ffs. He laughs in the face of adversity.

Now, you CAN do the opposite route where the MC breaks from the trauma, or at least is affected somehow by it. But in games, and KoD as an example, they don't show it! Where's the reference to the gang rape? It should not be a matter of fact thing. It should be a thing that the character constantly refers to (until it's no longer an extraordinary thing to be gang banged, you know, where she sucks dick for 8 gold?). That's the kind of immersion that I'd like people to do.

Devs need to research more on how people act in face of terror. How people react after it. How people rationalize their suffering. If a game dev manages to do that. Oh boy. That game will be great even if their art is mediocre.
 

Cleanfeel

Demon Girl
Sep 28, 2015
93
8
#20
Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

So much this. I love well-done corruption, but the combination of weird rape logic and grinding for points is a huge boner kill. There are better ways.

Like I love how seeds of corruption is doing it, where the demon twins want you corrupted and so they seduce and give you a slippery slope. downside is that it's slow to develop the paths.

But if you won't do that, Crisis Cell did it really well, where the corruption is justified by drugs and brainwashing, and you just automatically get a bunch of hot scenes for playing, and all of them if you win. No bullshit where you have to lose 20 times to unlock scenes.

Or like era games erasq and eretoho k, where it's the whole game and you pick the pace of corruption, and usually need to convince the girls first. It's like yeah, if you're a sex demon who can give a girl 30 orgasms a night it's a lot more believable. and push too hard and they'll hate you, they even get 「hate seals」 to show it. Which by the way, does anyone else think more games should use tattoos or seals of corruption? That and holy shit Kuzunoha! You corrupt her from shy refined fox noble to perfect lewd waifu <3

So yeah, lot of potential out there.

If it doesn't fit the characters tho, I'm fine with not. 100% support you Nomo and Sierra, it's much hotter to have Sabia and Simon fuck on their own terms.
A game that I really like, is Virgin Island. The main character is someone called Rifi and she's kind of a bad ass. She's not a general by any means, but she's a strong adventurer. She doesn't go from a cock sucking slut in 2-3 scenes. When she breaks, it's usually a game over scene (which I'm ok with because they're done really really well). I honestly haven't seen another game like that and I've played both translated and untranslated.