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RPG [mminit] Lewdest Labyrinth


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mminit

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Just played the new demo, and it feels pretty much the same.
Slaughter bats until you reach the first slime-monster, then as soon as it does it's first grapple, you lose your clothes and your damage output drops from 10 damage per round to 1 damage per round.
Game-over follows shortly.

it feels like i'm supposed to have some sort of skill to avoid that by this point, but I don't.
I've got two stances, neither of which are especially helpful, and I've got one attack.
I don't really have any options here other than to try to out-dps it, which seems impossible.

Not sure if there's a way to restore your clothes and regain your stats, or if you're supposed to avoid that attack in the first place, but it's kind of a progress-killer.
It sounds like I needed to do a better job introducing the game to those that needed it.

-Holding F1 will show you what each of your inputs do, there is a notice on the screen for the first floor that tells you this. You get your clothes back by pressing C (heal), unless you need to be cleaned first. The controls are also listed on the game page and the readme. I considered forcing the player to look at the help overlay before being allowed to play but opted for a notice instead.

-The tutorial lady that you must walk in front of mentions how you should deal with being grabbed, among other tips. She goes as far as to say you won’t make it too far without effective use of your stances (it's actually possible for specific play-styles, but I'll leave that up for people to discover).

-The first few enemies you encounter on the second/third floor that can grab do big damage output specifically so the player can learn how to deal with it, and how important your stats are. You can make some of them negligible by simply learning vitality 1 (starting enemies scale to be weaker much faster), and it's possible to break out of grabs after the first hit (this was made even easier compared to earlier versions). I really wanted player to understand this before proceeding further into the game because it would have just led to frustration during the later parts.

Maybe I should have made a step by step tutorial of sorts, that or introduced this stuff in a better way.

Advice for the start of the game:
-You start with 80 XP, choose either offensive stance or vitality 1 as your first upgrade. It's actually effective to out DPS the early enemies in offensive stance because of the extra hit. It’s possible to play in other ways, but this is the easiest most find at the start. Make sure to map at least 90% of every floor since it's a boost to each of your stats by 1 (help overlay tells you this).

You don't need to grind, many players have completed the game without grinding at all on a medium encounter rate. You get stronger in this game by mapping the floors to 90%, and finding items that increase stats. All enemies give HP up unless you are a lot stronger than them.
 

Ghotty

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Maybe, but it seemed pretty clear and concise to me, nothing you couldn't of figured out with a little of trial and error at least. If he genuinely couldn't beat the slime, thats his fault, not yours.
 

alphaikazuchi

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Yeah bro, honestly if he's having trouble with the slimes then it's his deal. They're definitely more difficult but using the right stances and moves easily beats them.
 

iamnuff

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I never said this wasn't a piracy site, its just that its dickish to do that in front of a developer especially one who worked hard to make the game. Keep in mind I'm the guy who can't buy shit because if I do, third-parties will notice and blackmail the shit out of me. If someone's gonna pirate it, they should at least try to hide it from the developer?
Most game-devs work hard on their games. It just seems a bit telling that posters only seem to care about the devs when they're actually watching us.
I mean, I'm no different, but it's kinda surprising how meek the piracy-userbase of this piracy-site turn when a game-dev makes his or her own thread.

I guess you could spin it as people wanting to reward a developer for interacting with the playerbase, but I don't think it's that.


It sounds like I needed to do a better job introducing the game to those that needed it.

-Holding F1 will show you what each of your inputs do, there is a notice on the screen for the first floor that tells you this. You get your clothes back by pressing C (heal), unless you need to be cleaned first. The controls are also listed on the game page and the readme. I considered forcing the player to look at the help overlay before being allowed to play but opted for a notice instead.
Ah, the C-heal and the LP-heal not being the same thing could have done with some explaining, but I worked it out fast enough.
then proceded to never use the C-heal because it's limited to three, and LP is easy to come by. Also berries. Why waste the limited heals?
I didn't work out that the C-heal gives your clothes back.

Yeah, having three separate healing methods that all work in different ways could have used some explaining, or some simplification. (for example, you could strip out the berries entirely and just replace them with more common C-heals. Or replace the C-heal with a clothing-repair function.)

-The tutorial lady that you must walk in front of mentions how you should deal with being grabbed, among other tips. She goes as far as to say you won’t make it too far without effective use of your stances (it's actually possible for specific play-styles, but I'll leave that up for people to discover).
She told me about stances, and how to shake enemies off, but nothing about redressing or the C-heal.

Regardless, at this point in the game, the stance-tutorial is kinda pointless. If you started with attack/defence stance to switch between, then it'd be fine, but at this point in the game you effectively only have once stance.
Rather, you have a normal stance, and a stance that debuffs you. I don't know what lewd+ does, but since the issue I'm facing is 'dying in battle' I'm going to say that dropping my defence is probably a bad idea.
Also, all stances become useless when naked anyway.

As for escaping grabs. That's simple enough. the issue is that even if you escape right away, they still take your clothes, which means that you die in this battle because you can no-longer deal damage.

-The first few enemies you encounter on the second/third floor that can grab do big damage output specifically so the player can learn how to deal with it, and how important your stats are. You can make some of them negligible by simply learning vitality 1 (starting enemies scale to be weaker much faster), and it's possible to break out of grabs after the first hit (this was made even easier compared to earlier versions). I really wanted player to understand this before proceeding further into the game because it would have just led to frustration during the later parts.
The problem is that what you refer to as 'the second floor' is actually the second room.
As in, you can enter it within, what? 20 steps of starting the game?

Edit: Booted the demo back up. 17 steps at shortest route. A single random encounter.
So yeah, you added a beefgate that forces you to grind(not really, but I'll get back to that), right at the start of the game.

Maybe I should have made a step by step tutorial of sorts, that or introduced this stuff in a better way.

Advice for the start of the game:
-You start with 80 XP, choose either offensive stance or vitality 1 as your first upgrade. It's actually effective to out DPS the early enemies in offensive stance because of the extra hit. It’s possible to play in other ways, but this is the easiest most find at the start. Make sure to map at least 90% of every floor since it's a boost to each of your stats by 1 (help overlay tells you this).
I don't think it needs a tutorial, but some things really should have been explained or plain implemented better.

Right. So you don't actually require grinding, because you just hand the player a bunch of exp right at the start.
What? Why?

You just start the game with enough exp under your belt to get your first level-up?
That's the sort of thing that completely screws with player-expectations.
It never would have occurred to me that i could just level-up right after starting the game, before even fighting anything.
That sort of thing just isn't how games work.
The player isn't going to expect to be able to level up until they've at least killed a bunch of things.

It feel like it would make more sense to expand the first 'floor' to give the player more room to move around before running into something that they're not capable of beating without buying skills.
Push the beefgate back, but strip away the 80 starter-exp to compensate.
That's the grinding option. You force the player to accumulate the xp on their own, but give them the space to do so.

Alternatively, skip the beefgate by just giving the player vit-1 (or enough starter-health to get the same effect) from the beginning of the game.
Alternatively, start the player with the offensive-stance instead of the lewd-stance. Give them the ability to dps-burst the slimes down.

As it is now, you can start the game, fight a bat then open a door and hit instant death within 60-seconds of booting the game up. It feels like the game is demanding that you grind before you can even leave the tiny first room, which feels terrible.
That sorts of thing makes you not want to continue playing. It feels like a sign that the game is going to be an unrelenting grindfest slog.

The fact that you start with exp means that it actually isn't, but I doubt many people noticed that you start with a bunch of xp at the beginning of the game. I didn't even bother to open my menu until I'd gotten to the second room, because I hand't found any items or killed enough things to gain any real amount of xp.

You don't need to grind, many players have completed the game without grinding at all on a medium encounter rate. You get stronger in this game by mapping the floors to 90%, and finding items that increase stats. All enemies give HP up unless you are a lot stronger than them.
Is this explained anywhere? It seems like you'd get stronger by killing enemies and spending exp, not by filling out your map. You really need something big and obvious that tells you that mapping is useful for more than just assuaging your OCD.


The issue here seems to be with differing gameplay philosophies. People aren't always going to play the game in the way you expect them to, and if you NEED to play that way in-order to not face difficulties, you need to actually explain that.
Mapping every tile is tedious. I'm not the sort of person to ignore side-paths and possible loot, but I saw no reason to walk around the tutorial-lady to get the tiles on the other side of her. I could see that they were empty.
I mapped the square box that you start in, but only on my first attempt. Second time through, I skipped it because there's nothing there.

Given the random encounter-rate and the fact that you only map the tiles you are standing on... filling out the map feels slow and unfun. If I'd known that you got significant(?) stat upgrades for doing it, then there'd have been some incentive to do so, but that completely passed me by, so I didn't bother.

Actually, on that note. I was recently playing lilitales (dungeon explorer game with similar mapping mechanics) and I noticed that you map tiles around you. IIRC, in a 2x2 square.
It's a minor thing, but a huge quality-of-life improvement, because you can map a corridor two-blocks wide without having to walk down it three times. (right, left, then returning to your previous position)

More importantly, you can map dangerous tiles like traps or without actually standing on them. Is there a way to map spikes in this game without getting hurt? Standing next to them doesn't seem to work.
What about the tile that a chest is on, or the tile that the tutorial-lady is standing on? Do those need to be mapped?


So yeah, TLDR: A bunch of stuff could have been explained better, especially the C-heal re-clothing you, and the mapping system giving stat-boots.
Secondly: I don't understand why you start the game basically a meter away from an enemy that will kill you if you didn't level-up.
Even if you hand the player the required exp for free at the start of the game, feels like a patch-job for poor game-balance.

Challenge is fine, but either it should be challenging right off the bat (to forewarn the player) or it should ramp up in challenge after giving the player time to get a level or two under their belt.

Here the bats and gazers are utterly trivial, then you open a door and run into something that steals your clothes (debuffing damage and defence, locking your stances) poisons you(I think?) and deals easily three or four times as much damage as the enemies in the previous room.

It's the game-design equivalent of luring someone in with a dollar-bill on a string, then sucker-punching them with brass knuckles when they follow it around a corner.
 
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I agree with everything iamnuff has said. There were a lot of things unexplained or poorly explained and having an enemy like the slime that can poison you, debuff you, and out DPS you within minutes of the start of the game is just plain bad.

Another thing I would like to add, the trap slimes that roam around are annoying, especially when you walk into a space right when they move onto it. You can't see them on the map so if they're around a corner you have no way to know if they're there or not, and I got caught by them several times without me ever even knowing they were there. If you're going to have a roaming trap like that then make sure you can see it, either on the map or make the areas they occupy more open, like the F.O.E's in Etrian Odyssey.

That being said, it's a fantastic first game (if it's not your first then don't take that as an insult, it's not meant to be one) so keep it up and I'm looking forward to whatever you do next.
 
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blackshot19

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opinion, pls proceed at your own risk
I'm gonna offer a contrary opinion and say the game was a bit too easy and too consistent (weird typing that out as a bad thing these days). While there were some aspects that could've been more clearly illustrated for the player's benefit, I didn't find that there was anything that couldn't be puzzled out easily with a bit of trial and error. If anything, the game felt a bit too 'safe,' in spite of its environment. You have a girl in a labyrinth full of monsters that want to have their way with her, and the only real danger is your HP hitting zero, which is thematically bad, but not really illustrated in gameplay.

Ever since I played your original demo, I hoped that once the game was finished it would have more mechanics revolving around the management of LP, and that some overworld mobs/traps would interact with you differently depending on LP. Even in battle, having too much LP felt like only a minor inconvenience, in spite of the Danger! warning. At worst, you miss a turn or get grabbed, both of which can be quickly compensated for, especially if you have an LP skill in the case of the former(since you don't get overcome by lust when using an LP skill).

For example, take the green tentacle/vine(?) trap you start seeing early on. It's one of the first overworld traps you encounter in the game, and it illustrates its purpose pretty clearly: walk next to me, and you're gonna lose your clothes, and then some. If you're unlucky enough to get caught by one without clothes on, you get a complimentary cumshower, too, which will end up maxing out your LP gauge pretty fast. All in all, pretty fair punishment (though as others have said, it is sometimes difficult to see overworld mobs around corners that do roughly the same thing) for the early stages.

But as you move through the rest of the game, you find that all the other traps and mobs, even the ones towards the final floors...do the exact same thing. Their behaviors don't change, other than the fact that some will not splooge all over you, and their patterns don't differ from those of their 1st floor siblings. So..they end up being little more than obstacles rather than dangers, which, strictly from a gameplay perspective, is kind of disappointing.

Same goes for battle: kill your opponent before they kill you. I very much enjoyed the level of detail you put in each enemy's splash-arts and their moves/grabs, but beyond their aesthetics, they didn't really seem to do all that much other than attack, LP, or grab. Granted there are some status effects, but they're pretty straightforward, and from what I remember the only really interesting one was the charmed status stopping me from changing stances, and only two enemies did that.

I would have liked to see some of the enemies focusing on maxing out your LP and having a grab that would drain all of that LP and deal a hefty chunk of damage. Or enemies that will end the battle if you can't keep your LP below a certain threshold. Same goes for traps and overworld mobs, too. Some traps could leave you alone entirely unless you have more than XX LP, at which point they'll start interacting with the spaces around them to try and grab you. Or have a wandering mob that ignores you completely unless you're naked (or vice versa). Maybe you could have one unique mob that will chase you around one of the later floors, trying to grab you and pull you to a nearby hole or crack in the wall. So on, so forth.

As someone who is unfamiliar with coding and game-making, I can only imagine this would've required a lot more effort from you, and given how much content you have put in this game in comparison to other h-game creators, maybe my suggestions/gripes would've made it much harder to finish the game within a reasonable time-frame and for the same pricetag. So take this with a mountain of salt.

In spite of everything I just wrote, I enjoyed the game immensely, and I absolutely do not regret paying the extra I did. I liked having such a wide variety of enemies to look out for, and I liked that each room and floor naturally transitioned from one set of mobs to another. The skills were fun to use, and while the battles did feel mostly the same throughout, they were still fun to go through, and I found myself fighting everything I met with the exception of a handful towards the end. I appreciated the mini-bosses hidden throughout the levels and the different benefits of the outfits. There was just enough variety in the traps and roaming mobs that I didn't get too bored of each one, and I have to really give you a shout-out for the artwork, which I found both incredibly endearing and hot.

If you put out another game like this, I will definitely buy it. Please take my money.
 

tontoman

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Well when it comes to game design you can't make everyone happy. For every tutorial that's not long enough, it's too long for someone else (and so on). Probably one of the hardest things to do, which is why AAA titles just have a level or two and totally spoon feed players as if they were two and be done with it (spend all the tutorial dev time and money on marketing instead lol). Compared to something like Inside (or Limbo) where the tutorial is done without one 'Hit the X key to....' message.

I don't mind sudden boss kills (you're way underlevelled, need an item etc.) so long as you can save anywhere, or often enough. Also with this game type, where losing is part of the fun, dying without actually trying to die (if it's too easy) I find nice. If fighting was pure grind, then dying and redoing would be annoying. So long as the fighting is fun, fine. But lots of personal preference in that.

That's actually a thing also. If you want your players to see the loss scenes in-game (without trying to lose say), you either have to make it generally hard so they will fail at some time, or make it a one off by having them always lose until they learn a technique or find an item first (quest). But some will get upset over what they might see as too hard combat in general for the former, or a cheap death for the latter. Difficulty levels help by giving choice.

But anyway, thanks and congrats on bringing out one of the most polished games out there. :).

 

Doomnuggets

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Definitely a solid game. Probably only real complaint is the lack of grapple finishers, but that might just be me.
 

dood

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Most game-devs work hard on their games. It just seems a bit telling that posters only seem to care about the devs when they're actually watching us.
I mean, I'm no different, but it's kinda surprising how meek the piracy-userbase of this piracy-site turn when a game-dev makes his or her own thread.

I guess you could spin it as people wanting to reward a developer for interacting with the playerbase, but I don't think it's that.
Seriously I can't believe this debate keeps coming up.
Eerily it just keeps going in circles
Not much really to say.
Definitely one last thing to say though.

Perhaps you could be right. There's definitely a bit of a pussy foot phenomena to blame.
My opinion opinion is it just people trying to be nice. Just because you steal to get what you want doesn't mean you'll do it in the open.

Frankly I just don't understand whether its right or not.
Opinions aside, let's just agree to disagree
Reality is a harsh thing with lots of a different contexts and I"m pretty sure in one thread someone leaked the game even though the developer was posting in it.

Granted, That was a one time thing and the developer made a pretty mediocre game IIRC.
A big thing in the context of this scenario is that the game is really good and people should buy it if only for the artwork and time put into the game. As for
ME I'm just gonna say that I found a nice work around to get money to the dev without leaving a goddamn paper trail. BE nice and respect the developer.
 
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Sangoku25

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Is just designed for farms.
War pro defeated mop exp for your skills.
And always 1 HP there too.
From Ebne 2 give the memory points.
The one also heal.
War 1 water potion.
The one healing point returns + if you sow with seeds it is removed.
In case of loss of clothing you only need to have a healing point outside of the fight to renew your clothes.
For seeds over body you need 1 additional point because of seed removal comes first.
Tip as bad as 2 clothes you can also wegseln. (But still must be present. ^^)
You just have to restore all the clothes at the store point.
And go back again to renew the healing points.
Certainly monsters also drive long-lasting buff items.
The specific status values ​​increase by 1 point.
Each Kleiung still has 3 Passives that you can learn and only then you are wearing them.
Solte mann allso but the näst level problems simply have 1 back and continue to collect until you are strong enough.
The heliungs in combat fight% of your HP.

Ist halt auf farmen ausgelegt.
Kriegs pro besiegten Mop exp für deine Skills.
Und immer 1 HP da zu.
Ab Ebne 2 gibs die speicher punkte.
Die ein auch heilen.
Kriegs 1 Wasser Trank.
Der ein heilung Punkt wieder gibt + wenn man mit samen über säht ist es entfernt.
Bei Kleidungs verlust brauch man nur heilungs Punkt ausser halb des kampfes um seine Kleidung zu erneuern.
Bei Samen übern körper brauch man 1 zusätzlichen Punkt wegen samen entfernen kommt zu erst.
Tipp so balt 2 Kleidungen hat kann man auch wegseln. (Muß aber noch vorhanden sein.^^)
Man muß allso am Speicher Punkt einfach alle Kleidung wieder herstellen.
Und erneut wieder hin gehen um die Heilungs Punkte zu erneuern.
Bestimte Monster dropen auch Dauer hafte Buff Items.
Die bestimte Status werte erhöhen um 1 Punkt.
Jede Kleiung hat noch 3 Passive die man lernen kann und nur dann wirkt man sie trägt.
Solte mann allso aber der nästen Ebene probleme haben einfach 1 zurück und dort weiter sammeln, bis man stark genug ist.
Den die Heliungs zuber im Kampf regnerieren % deine HP.

 

scrumpy80

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Setting aside the issue of balance, and being able to comprehend the english language when tutorial messages come up, have you guys encountered any gameplay bugs yet? I've been lurking on the lewdest labyrinth discord server and apparently the only bug that has been found is a typo with a skill description.
 

HentaiDev

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Porn game developers deserve no money for their degenerate and sinful work.
 

cacapost

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who i need to ask to get this game?
It probably wont get shared on this site since the developer is here. Just keep an eye out on other sites if you can't afford it.

I just beat it and i'd say it was worth the money. I can't imagine how people beat it without grinding though, and I played on easy!
Also it would had been nice to have an explanation what LP and lewd does. I know LP is used for skills but I didn't know it lowered defense and that enemies could have it too.
And I never figured out what lewd did.
 

szarala

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It probably wont get shared on this site since the developer is here. Just keep an eye out on other sites if you can't afford it.

I just beat it and i'd say it was worth the money. I can't imagine how people beat it without grinding though, and I played on easy!
Also it would had been nice to have an explanation what LP and lewd does. I know LP is used for skills but I didn't know it lowered defense and that enemies could have it too.
And I never figured out what lewd did.
Lewd stance lets you gain LP at the end of your turn. The H button lets you gain LP out of combat.
 

scrumpy80

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In case it wasn't explained somewhere (I thought it was) The lewdness stat also makes you take less lp damage from lewd attacks. At the maximum, you'll only take 3 lp damage from walking into traps at the beginning areas. Because offense and defense stance lower lewdness, you might want to use neutral stance against enemies with lots of lp attacks. The raised lewdness of lewd stance also affects how much lp you generate in that stance.
 

Laytruce

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The problem is that what you refer to as 'the second floor' is actually the second room.
As in, you can enter it within, what? 20 steps of starting the game?

Edit: Booted the demo back up. 17 steps at shortest route. A single random encounter.
So yeah, you added a beefgate that forces you to grind(not really, but I'll get back to that), right at the start of the game.
Who would actually do that, though? You know what kind of game it is: a dungeon crawler. Enemies get stronger as you go further. I really don't think it's unreasonable for the dev to assume you'd explore most of the first floor before moving on to the second. Maybe it's because of my years of playing similar games like Etrian Odyssey, but fully exploring each floor before moving on is nothing more than common sense to me. And by doing that, you naturally discover that mapping out floors gives you stat boosts. No need for someone to explain it.

Right. So you don't actually require grinding, because you just hand the player a bunch of exp right at the start.
I don't really believe that's what the starting EXP is for. The reason grinding isn't required is that, by exploring each floor, you fight enough battles to generally be strong enough for the next floor. If a player decides to simply forge ahead and fight as few battles as possible, that's on them. That's just not how the game, and in fact the entire genre, works.

The EXP is there so you can choose your fighting style for the earliest battles: do you go for offense with Offensive Stance? Get Vitality for a more careful approach?

I do agree that the starting EXP should've been mentioned somewhere in-game, though. Maybe simply have an exclamation mark next to the Level Up menu item when you have enough for a new skill or something. That way, you'd immediately notice it when you first open the menu.

The issue here seems to be with differing gameplay philosophies. People aren't always going to play the game in the way you expect them to, and if you NEED to play that way in-order to not face difficulties, you need to actually explain that.
I strongly disagree here. Most of the things you're mentioning are simply conventions of the genre. When you play a platformer,do you try to defeat enemies by running into them? Of course not, because you know you'll take damage. Similarly, you don't rush through floors in games like this, because you know the enemies on later floors will wipe the floor with you.

Unless this is the player's first dungeon crawler ever, I guess, but I really don't think you can blame the game for the player's lack of genre-savviness. There's plenty of games that assume you know what the genre plays like.

Actually, on that note. I was recently playing lilitales (dungeon explorer game with similar mapping mechanics) and I noticed that you map tiles around you. IIRC, in a 2x2 square.
It's a minor thing, but a huge quality-of-life improvement, because you can map a corridor two-blocks wide without having to walk down it three times. (right, left, then returning to your previous position)

More importantly, you can map dangerous tiles like traps or without actually standing on them. Is there a way to map spikes in this game without getting hurt? Standing next to them doesn't seem to work.

What about the tile that a chest is on, or the tile that the tutorial-lady is standing on? Do those need to be mapped?
Waiting (X key) will automatically map all squares surrounding yours. Not sure if this is mentioned anywhere, but it may not be too obvious.

As for the tile with the tutorial NPC, you can clearly see that the map shows borders around it, so no, it cannot be mapped. If you pay attention, you should also see that a tile with a chest is automatically mapped when you open it.
 
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