Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread
My entire argument has been that the majority of spirit powers are more useful for other classes, and the remainder that are better utilized by spirit characters have been touted as too powerful and nerfed. Save-or-Die powers are quite easy for mages to be more powerful at that spirits. for example, Alberik spends 4EP as a mage to gain 14 to resistance, 0 upkeep. to use Fell Might for the same purpose would cost 14EP, with I assume an upkeep of 12. that more than makes up for the 3EP difference between the entropy save-or-die and gorgon's gaze. Could be used with Dominate just as easily.
EDIT: Also, keep in mind that Alberik has the bare minimum of Mind competency for a mage, and almost no mage talents, also taking none of the magic feats into account. Someone like Kor fromt he Heroes of the Desert thread would make the difference even more remote
There's still the turn in which you have no defense beyond what you've already set up besides the other spell. Mages are supposed to be more EP efficient - they're using the energy in the air instead of just the energy in them - but they also don't have the sheer bang per turn that Spirit Wielders do. Going Fell Might for 10 on turn one gives a character +10 Resistance AND +30 Dodge and attack for 10 EP, a drop in the bucket for most characters that use primarily Spirit Powers. The Mage's +14 Resistance upgrade (which would only be +20 on a character with 60 Mind, which is about as high as it goes on any active PCs that come to mind) might only cost 2 EP, but it also doesn't protect them from anything that doesn't care about Resistance, like say a warrior's axe coming for your face.
The next turn, the mage can use Gorgon's Gaze for 5 EP IF they're still standing. The spirit wielder, who is much more likely to still be up, is going to shrug, spend the 8 EP and 6 HP upkeep, then spend the 5 extra EP for Gorgon's Gaze, and will be about as likely to succeed at the theoretically still alive mage while still having plenty of energy to spare. Also, an activation of Psychic Shield for 10 EP would grant +30 Resistance, Grapple, and Dodge, plus 10 AV in case they get hit. A mage with Healer could theoretically do that for 6 EP.... Over the course of 3 to 4 turns. There are the bigger buffs with the cheaper EP costs, but the focus produces the same problems. Spirit Wielders also don't have Base Casting to worry about.
You can argue that mages with dipped Spirit Powers for a save or die are slightly more effective at it. You might also be arguably right. But there are only like, 4 save or die things in DG total, not counting things like Charm or Pollen Shot, and of those most of them are Spirit Powers. A mage that's spending a Talent on a Spirit Power tree for no better reason than to have a save-or-die so that it can use a Resistance buff to increase the likelihood of said save-or-die working, then they're being fairly roundabout in order to get to their goal.
In the end, it really is apples to oranges, and they're both effective at doing the things that they do anyway. It only matters if one is more effective than the other if the difference is extreme.
Also, taking CW's characters into account, Anthriel hits with Spirit Powers with a 106 and can comfortably pump 30 EP into a single attack. Kor, with his best buff to Dodge in an attempt to survive that hit, would either be Empowered Arcane Apotheosis for 16 EP or Empowered Force Armor for 10 EP. 12 * 8 = +96 Mind for 48 Dodge, or 12 * 5 = +60 Dodge. His natural Dodge of 44 means that Anthriel still hits on a 1, and her minimum damage on an energy blast is 120, which almost kills Kor even with his damage reduction. Rolling one higher on any one of those d4s increases that to 150 damage, which does outright kill him after his damage reduction. Hitting him with an energy blade for half that EP cost would outright kill him, and she'd have the same chance to hit. Kor even has a chance of losing if he tries to alpha strike, as Anthriel's Dodge of 75 gives him a 30% chance to miss with any spell that he attacks with, as empowered magic missile isn't going to get through her 71 HP on anything but max damage.
I know Tass mentioned it was absurd, but Soul Shatter seems like it shouldn't exist except as a GM's plot device. And if you wanted it to exist and be usable,
then have the starting Resistance DC be extremely low, and that if you wanted to obliterate someone powerful, you'd have to be able to spend an additionally ridiculous amount of EP to increase the DC check to a point where the target might fail.
If you do that, then it becomes an ability that creatures like Matthias can be capable of, but normal PCs would have to dedicate a significant amount of time and experience to getting their spirit ceiling and EP stat to a high enough level that they could reasonably use this ability.
EDIT: Also, I like the Druidic spirit tree. Its restrictions really make sense with regards to my own character's background, so I appreciate the way you had it work out.
The problem with leaving it in the hands of characters like Matthias is 2 fold. One, they don't need explicit mechanics to kill PCs. The upper tier god level daemons in DG, like Matthias, Doraleous, Sivicine, and Whisp are powerful enough to pull the moon out of orbit with their minds. All of the PCs at once aren't going to fight that and win, thematically or mechanically. Even the weaker gods like the Merchant and Corini would use the stats for Archangels and Demon Queens if they ever ended up in a fight with a PC, and even the extremely powerful characters would need to get real lucky to beat one of those.
And two, I don't like letting NPCs do things that PCs outright can't. It might not be as powerful as the stuff that the gods can do, but ye Daemon power is at least a fascimile of what they can do to someone.
Also, if you're talking about the incident with Charlotte, that was being divided neatly into three pieces by a god who made sure that nothing bad happened to any of the bits. Soul Shatter would be more like hitting a vase with a baseball bat and then setting the individual pieces on fire.
That said, I'm willing to drop Soul Shatter if I or somebody else can think up a suitable replacement.