What fails about patreon model?

[asestado]

I wanted to create this thread so that we can talk about what we think about the patreon model. However i think its necessary to say a few rules:

-Dont talk about an specific patreon.
-Dont have any personal fights in this thread.
-Dont offend anyone.

I think if we all comply this can be quite productive to future patreon creators or an answer to the question "why do i feel something off about...?".

I will start giving my perspective about it. Im not talking about any patreon so no one should feel attacked or think that they should explain themselves.

I think patreon model is good but the problem is with the developers who use it. The thing is:

-No transparency: An author can say whatever he wants, but most of them dont show that they are truly doing it, giving a cg or something doesnt mean anything.

-No pressure: Because they dont have a boss or someone controlling them they are half assed, what i mean is they dont truly work hard in the game they are doing, they will only care if they see a big movement on pledges.

-They are too lax: I dont think that any type of job will let you take a month or two off, getting money because something trivial like moving out.

-They dont planify: Most of them say how good they are at writing, drawing or programming but they always forget to think about the one who administers budgets and is always calculating if they are doing good or bad. Misusing funds is a sin.

-Patreon isnt made so that people can live from it: Most people think that patreon should be used after you do free games or show that you have experience, i think its true that you have to show something, but with a good demo with a few cgs showing the art it would be enough, patreon is perfect for new game developers who need funds to make their game.

And here is whats wrong about it, giving the final game for free to everyone, all the money they receive from patreon should be used in the game, but after its finished, patreons who contributed at least 5-10$ would receive a free copy and then the rest should buy the game at dlsite. I would be lax about piracy with this game but i would make clear one thing, "you sell the game NOT to obtain profit, but to be able to be an independent developer who doesnt need patreon".

-They dont work hard: Not only are they lax about their circunstances but even more when they work, because they first get money and then work, they go at a slower pace so that they can even earn more. This is plainly ridiculous, a developer takes money after they have done something, not BEFORE or just thinking that in the future they will do.

-They ignore their supporters: Some of them stop talking to their supporters at one point, they say something like they are focusing in the game and nothing else. Talking with the supporters is the most important thing in this model, you should never ignore them.

This is why i think the developers are using patreon wrongly, i wont say everyone but i can say that most do it bad.

Lastly i will take the "argument" that says "if you dont like it then dont donate!", there is a clear difference between being a hater and wanting that things are done right, because if you take money from people who believe in you, its necessary to reciprocate those feelings.

I wont use examples because its not right, but im quite sure that nearly all developers fail at some of the points i have given. If they solve them, then i think that it will be worth to donate to them.

This is my humble critic about the model. I hope im not offending anyone with it or that someone feels "attacked" because thats not my intention, if you feel that i have hurt someone feelings or anything like that then i will start by saying im sorry and that wasnt my intention.

 

[mxk1310]

Re: What fails about patreon model?

So, I think you meant to do a 'Pros and Cons' sort of list but I only see negative things. Yes, creators should be aware of what they are promising on Patreon. Projects often tend to be stretched over a long period of time, while Patreon is not really meant for that. Kickstarter/Offbeatr fits more into that role.
The "problem" with that approach is that you -as a creator- would have to show you are more than capable of pulling off what you are promising. You would have to plan really tight and have a clear concept visible. Most developers don't have what it takes to do just that. They miss deadlines, they didn't plan ahead properly, they don't know what they are getting into etc. Developers on Patreon slap a demo on their page, wait until they get paid and keep stumbling through the entire ordeal.

The biggest factor in this are the Patrons. They are the ones who empower the developers to do all the things you listed. While they complain about developers slacking and not delivering what they promised they are throwing money at them and keeping the project alive.
It really is as simple as: if you don't want it, don't buy it.
You can know this for yourself looking at the demo provided or the features listed. There are only 2-3 developers I ever gave my money too because I knew for sure they could pull off the project, based solely on their demos and feature listings. More people should be able to read between the lines of both.

I didn't want to reveal it as soon as this but I too am going to start a project on Patreon next year. I'm still sorting things out and I have a clear view on what I want to offer. But I am still in the early stages. I'm not making a page yet. It will be a very honest and open project in which I want to include the community very closely.

 

[colasCageNi]

Re: What fails about patreon model?

I completely agree.
In my opinion most of them can't even draw or program decently. They are just looking for easy money.
Don't misunderstand me. There is nothing wrong about wanting money for creating games but it just gets exaggerated.

 

[Abandonedacc]

Re: What fails about patreon model?

Lazyness, loss of interest and procrastination also dont forget being a total asshole scamming people.


Sadly all of this is highly frequent in patreon erogames most of them are developed at snail speed without updating or any news just to cash grab.

You must be registered to see the links

 

[azurezero]

Re: What fails about patreon model?

my patreon is weird... my patrons dont even message me... its rare they even reply to me.

 

[mxk1310]

Re: What fails about patreon model?

my patreon is weird... my patrons dont even message me... its rare they even reply to me.

If they don't speak up that means you are doing it right

 

[Hagya]

Re: What fails about patreon model?

If you want to make a study about the patreon model, I suggest this very good website :

You must be registered to see the links

There are good jokes on patreon sometimes, like a guy who need $5000 a month to get a NAS to backup his work while a USB stick costs $5. (and I saw way worse in other patreons milestones)

 

[asestado]

Re: What fails about patreon model?

So, I think you meant to do a 'Pros and Cons' sort of list but I only see negative things. Yes, creators should be aware of what they are promising on Patreon. Projects often tend to be stretched over a long period of time, while Patreon is not really meant for that. Kickstarter/Offbeatr fits more into that role.
The "problem" with that approach is that you -as a creator- would have to show you are more than capable of pulling off what you are promising. You would have to plan really tight and have a clear concept visible. Most developers don't have what it takes to do just that. They miss deadlines, they didn't plan ahead properly, they don't know what they are getting into etc. Developers on Patreon slap a demo on their page, wait until they get paid and keep stumbling through the entire ordeal.

The biggest factor in this are the Patrons. They are the ones who empower the developers to do all the things you listed. While they complain about developers slacking and not delivering what they promised they are throwing money at them and keeping the project alive.
It really is as simple as: if you don't want it, don't buy it.
You can know this for yourself looking at the demo provided or the features listed. There are only 2-3 developers I ever gave my money too because I knew for sure they could pull off the project, based solely on their demos and feature listings. More people should be able to read between the lines of both.

I didn't want to reveal it as soon as this but I too am going to start a project on Patreon next year. I'm still sorting things out and I have a clear view on what I want to offer. But I am still in the early stages. I'm not making a page yet. It will be a very honest and open project in which I want to include the community very closely.

More than pros and cons what i wanted is to do a list of what you should be careful when you make a patreon. The pros is what you analyze when you make it, however the cons arent as easy to see.

If you want to make a study about the patreon model, I suggest this very good website : h ttp://graphtreon.com/

There are good jokes on patreon sometimes, like a guy who need $5000 a month to get a NAS to backup his work while a USB stick costs $5. (and I saw way worse in other patreons milestones)

Well i have seen a few "proyects" not finding another word to call it... that you cant even believe that someone would donate to them XDD, but i think its interesting to know whats important for those who make a patreon seriously.

 

[blightspawn]

Re: What fails about patreon model?

Ok i'll bite.

First of all, no one is forced to donate to a project.
Unlike KekStarter, once you've paid, it's mighty number nine gone.
In Patreon, you can cancel it anytime.

Second, It's my project. Unless it's part of a reward, I am not going to break the lore or plans I have for the game just to include any crazy idea coming from anyone, patron or not.

Don't get me wrong, I listen. I listen a lot. And I know when a suggestion is good. But don't go crying when you are ignored or replied at late. You have no idea how much time it takes to reply to every message you get everyday, including facebook pages, forums like these, emails etc. etc.

Third, stop being the embodiment of "Stop liking what I don't like!"
Unless you can provide a perfect solution to a known problem that you assume yourself, then you only come out as salty as the sea.

Creators are taken advantage of as well. From piracy to content leaks, heck I get $20-$200 daily pledge trolls/cancels a day after removing the paywall. But you know... maybe the patron wants to see more content before supporting first? Sure, it's cool! It's your money, it's your choice. You need not support if you are not convinced.

When a creator gets lazy or do not take his work seriously, that creator is bound to lose support. But the lost support may not go as low as how YOU want to see it because you are missing the point that this is a crowd funding system. You think only of your own opinion and hating the people who like the stuff you do not like. This irritates you. You have to grasp the idea that there's a lot of people out there who are complete adults who will probably spend their money somewhere else that YOU DO NOT LIKE AS WELL anyway. So why not tell them to stop buying those steam sale games they are not gonna play anyway? or that expensive coffee brand? or that new overpriced iGadget?

In the end, it's not YOUR project or YOUR money. The backlash to this kind of system is VERY REAL for creators AND patrons. Yet you're the one mad at a system you are not ever involved at?

Some campaigns will be funded.
Most campaigns will not be funded.

Some projects will be finished.
Most projects will not be finished.

Creators will create at their own pace or at a lazy unprofessional pace after being blinded by that sea of money.

Campaigns will gain support. campaigns will lose support.

People will pirate the game.
People will buy the game.

If one day this system dies and it is no longer profitable, then I will take my craft somewhere else. I will not run out of work.
Any patron of mine can withdraw from supporting at anytime.
I will be late. I will be in time. I will have roadblocks and i will have a hyper creative day.

If you're no artist, you will not understand.
If you're no programmer, you will never understand.

You will complain, but you're gonna pirate and wank at my game anyway.
I do not cater to you.

There's no pleasing everyone anywhere.

But to those who will believe and decide to support in faith, then I thank you. Please enjoy whatever I can produce.


For everyone else, get over it and get real.
I will decide what's best for the project. I'll fucking buy whatever I want with the money people gave me.
If I decide to buy a $5000 NAS to back up my work but still deliver in the end, then what's the fucking problem?


EDIT: cool! I'm on that Graphtreon. lol.
Hey asestado, your 2 post counts makes me think you're the troll from last time who made an appreciation thread and a 100mb+ rpg maker demo with pledge at my patreon plz? lol

 

[Ronin89]

Re: What fails about patreon model?

The whole problem is that people used patreon even though they never made a game before.

Most creators have no passion.... Some successfull developers have created games and still worked 40+hour weeks.....

Most of the HGAME patreon creators have some sort of twisted entitlement: "okay i will create a game but first.... GIVE ME MONEY"

Please name me 5 GREAT (not bad/average games) which are 100% patreon founded and finished.
You can't name a single one.
These games all take a shitton of time to develope and produce nothing.
I hope sooner or later people will just ignore these trashy games and use their money to support GOOD GAMES no matter if English or Japanese....

 

[asestado]

Re: What fails about patreon model?

Ok i'll bite.

First of all, no one is forced to donate to a project.
Unlike KekStarter, once you've paid, it's might number nine gone.
In Patreon, you can cancel it anytime.

Second, It's my project. Unless it's part of a reward, I am not going to break the lore or plans I have for the game just to include any crazy idea coming from anyone, patron or not.

Don't get me wrong, I listen. I listen a lot. And I know when a suggestion is good. But don't go crying when you are ignored or replied at late. You have no idea how much time it takes to reply to every message you get everyday, including facebook pages, forums like these, emails etc. etc.

Third, stop being the embodiment of "Stop liking what I don't like!"
Unless you can provide a perfect solution to a known problem that you assume yourself, then you only come out as salty as the sea.

Creators are taken advantage of as well. From piracy to content leaks, heck I get $20-$200 daily pledge trolls/cancels a day after removing the paywall. But you know... maybe the patron wants to see more content before supporting first? Sure, it's cool! It's your money, it's your choice. You need not support if you are not convinced.

When a creator gets lazy or do not take his work seriously, that creator is bound to lose support. But the lost support may not go as low as how YOU want to see it because you are missing the point that this is a crowd funding system. You think only of your own opinion and hating the people who like the stuff you do not like. This irritates you. You have to grasp the idea that there's a lot of people out there who are complete adults who will probably spend their money somewhere else that YOU DO NOT LIKE AS WELL anyway. So why not tell them to stop buying those steam sale games they are not gonna play anyway? or that expensive coffee brand? or that new overpriced iGadget?

In the end, it's not YOUR project or YOUR money. The backlash to this kind of system is VERY REAL for creators AND patrons. Yet you're the one mad at a system you are not ever involved at?

Some campaigns will be funded.
Most campaigns will not be funded.

Some projects will be finished.
Most projects will not be finished.

Creators will create at their own pace or at a lazy unprofessional pace after being blinded by that sea of money.

Campaigns will gain support. campaigns will lose support.

People will pirate the game.
People will buy the game.

If one day this system dies and it is no longer profitable, then I will take my craft somewhere else. I will not run out of work.
Any patron of mine can withdraw from supporting at anytime.
I will be late. I will be in time. I will have roadblocks and i will have a hyper creative day.

If you're no artist, you will not understand.
If you're no programmer, you will never understand.

You will complain, but you're gonna pirate and wank at my game anyway.
I do not cater to you.

There's no pleasing everyone anywhere.

But to those who will believe and decide to support in faith, then I thank you. Please enjoy whatever I can produce.


For everyone else, get over it and get real.
I will decide what's best for the project. I'll fucking buy whatever I want with the money people gave me.
If I decide to buy a $5000 NAS to back up my work but still deliver in the end, then what's the fucking problem?

Its not about biting or not biting, i just want to learn more about the patreon model, have a chat with people and understand it better.

However there is one thing that i will never be able to accept of what you said, if you use $5000 in whatever you want, which isnt the part of salary that you establish yourself, its plainly wrong unless the people who donated to you know that you will use it for it and not in the game.

I understand that you dont have to satisfy everyone, and i dont want you to. im not doing anything other than a constructive critic about what could be better about the model, i dont tell anyone how to do his work.

And i will say just one thing, all what you said is trying to pick a fight because i wanted to learn about the model. Thanks but i will not enter that fight.

If you want to explain yourself without being like that i will always accept what you say. But if you want to dismiss people because your experiences or just plainly that you dont care, then please dont start a fight here.

 

[freeko]

Re: What fails about patreon model?

Saying you can cancel at any time is the second most moronic excuse in my opinion. The first is the development being "redone" or "revamped" to further delay the process of actually releasing the game and thereby slaughtering the cash cow in the process of doing so.

The whole model is backwards. People are being paid to not make games. Sure they show some progress, but I damn well know that the "progress" is maybe about a tenth of what it could be if people still relied on actually selling a game to be their income.

So little Johnny and little Nathan have a game. They are basically the same in the overall level of effort needed to make the game. Johnny puts his game on patreon, and realizes that he is doing almost nothing and the money is rolling in because his art looks good or some other stupid reason. Nathan on the other hand is putting alot of time and effort to release the game so that he can sell it and make his money that way.

See how fucked Nathan is already? Johnny isnt doing shit and still probably already making more than Nathan ever will from selling the game. Apologists can call it whatever the fuck they want, but lets call bullshit what it is.

Personally, I dont have an opinion on any of these patreon cows in particular. I know that they all want the sham and illusion of "it takes time" to make a game. Because of course they are getting money every month that it takes for them to crawl across the finish line from the start.

That is all. Show your approval of my stance by negrepping this post.

 

[blightspawn]

Re: What fails about patreon model?

Its not about biting or not biting, i just want to learn more about the patreon model, have a chat with people and understand it better.

However there is one thing that i will never be able to accept of what you said, if you use $5000 in whatever you want, which isnt the part of salary that you establish yourself, its plainly wrong unless the people who donated to you know that you will use it for it and not in the game.

I understand that you dont have to satisfy everyone, and i dont want you to. im not doing anything other than a constructive critic about what could be better about the model, i dont tell anyone how to do his work.

And i will say just one thing, all what you said is trying to pick a fight because i wanted to learn about the model. Thanks but i will not enter that fight.

If you want to explain yourself without being like that i will always accept your opinnion. But if you want to dismiss people because your experiences or just plainly that you dont care, then please dont start a fight here.

Ok, to be clear, by YOU I meant it generally.
I did not mean you, asestado. lol.

It's quite easy for people to read the whole thing with emotions but losing the substance of it.
By biting, I meant that as a precaution as there have been trolls of late.

At any rate, I will still spend the money I got with however I wish.
It is of no one's concern. Of course I will NOT spend it like that. I have a family to feed.
Besides, doing this is not free. I may invest full PASSION with this, but in the end, stress is fucking real.
Make a game, and you'll understand. I still spend time here, and if you've no problem with people buying paintings above 8 digits, then you still do not grasp the situation.

Anyway, again, I spend a lot of time here and GETTING to what I can do required FUCKING PASSION.
Do you know what passion means? It means to endure and to suffer.
And being in the creatives department, it took a fucking lifetime to at least make my craft sellable.

If I am getting that amount because people like my work, then I will fucking buy whatever I want with the money as long as I deliver and make them fucking wank at my games in the end. Simple as that.

 

[asestado]

Re: What fails about patreon model?

Saying you can cancel at any time is the second most moronic excuse in my opinion. The first is the development being "redone" or "revamped" to further delay the process of actually releasing the game and thereby slaughtering the cash cow in the process of doing so.

The whole model is backwards. People are being paid to not make games. Sure they show some progress, but I damn well know that the "progress" is maybe about a tenth of what it could be if people still relied on actually selling a game to be their income.

So little Johnny and little Nathan have a game. They are basically the same in the overall level of effort needed to make the game. Johnny puts his game on patreon, and realizes that he is doing almost nothing and the money is rolling in because his art looks good or some other stupid reason. Nathan on the other hand is putting alot of time and effort to release the game so that he can sell it and make his money that way.

See how fucked Nathan is already? Johnny isnt doing shit and still probably already making more than Nathan ever will from selling the game. Apologists can call it whatever the fuck they want, but lets call bullshit what it is.

Personally, I dont have an opinion on any of these patreon cows in particular. I know that they all want the sham and illusion of "it takes time" to make a game. Because of course they are getting money every month that it takes for them to crawl across the finish line from the start.

That is all. Show your approval of my stance by negrepping this post.

Perhaps this is the most important point about everything we have said. Its a big temptation receiving money before doing something, i think that every author should charge right after they update the current version of the game, with a changelog so its more fair that point.

Ok, to be clear, by YOU I meant it generally.
I did not mean you, asestado. lol.

It's quite easy for people to read the whole thing with emotions but losing the substance of it.
By biting, I meant that as a precaution as there have been trolls of late.

At any rate, I will still spend the money I got with however I wish.
It is of no one's concern. Of course I will NOT spend it like that. I have a family to feed.
Besides, doing this is not free. I may invest full PASSION with this, but in the end, stress is fucking real.
Make a game, and you'll understand. I still spend time here, and if you've no problem with people buying paintings above 8 digits, then you still do not grasp the situation. Anyway, again, I spend a lot of time here and GETTING to what I can do required FUCKING PASSION. Do you know what passion means? It means to endure and to suffer. If I am getting that amount because people like my work, then I will fucking buy whatever I want with the money as long as I deliver and make them fucking wank at my games in the end. Simple as that.

You are making the same mistake again. Talking about passion as if i dont know it, talking about haters, about stress as if i dont feel it.

You are supposing i dont know about what you feel, but the funny thing is that you are just making yourself a victim by saying that. I understand much more than you think and perhaps even more than you, but the thing is that you are already treating me as a leecher or something like that:

"make a game and you will understand" I havent done a game, but do you think only people who make games can feel what you say?.

"i may invest full PASSION" You arent the only one who use it. Stop treating people like that, its plainly insulting.

Most of what you said is like picking a fight really, it may be because you have a lot of stress or whatever, but your attitude is like giving a lesson to a child, telling them what a tragedy is doing a game.

I understand quite good that its difficult, that you have to work hard, im not a hater, i just want to ask you, stop being like that, say what you think without offending, its not needed, you dont have tu justify anything, its not needed.

You may say "its not for you", but you are starting this wrong. When i started this post it wasnt to say "patreon is evil" or "creators are evil", what i want is to talk about what could be better to guarantee that a creator do things exactly as you say, with passion and hard work. If you do it already, good work.

 

[blightspawn]

Re: What fails about patreon model?

You are making the same mistake again. Talking about passion as if i dont know it, talking about haters, about stress as if i dont feel it.

You are supposing i dont know about what you feel, but the funny thing is that you are just making yourself a victim by saying that. I understand much more than you think and perhaps even more than you, but the thing is that you are already treating me as a leecher or something like that:

"make a game and you will understand" I havent done a game, but do you think only people who make games can feel what you say?.

"i may invest full PASSION" You arent the only one who use it. Stop treating people like that, its plainly insulting.

Most of what you said is like picking a fight really, it may be because you have a lot of stress or whatever, but your attitude is like giving a lesson to a child, telling them what a tragedy is doing a game.

I understand quite good that its difficult, that you have to work hard, im not a hater, i just want to ask you, stop being like that, say what you think without offending, its not needed, you dont have tu justify anything, its not needed.

You may say "its not for you", but you are starting this wrong. When i started this post it wasnt to say "patreon is evil" or "creators are evil", what i want is to talk about what could be better to guarantee that a creator do things exactly as you say, with passion and hard work.

We're talking about hentai games here, so I don't really care if you're stressed out building the tallest sky-scraper or flippin burgers.

Do you know how to setup a game? make it fun?
Do you know how to animate a sprite? make sure it looks right?
Do you know how to make it move thru code? The right math approach for every single entity?
Have you ever spent a whole day dealing with a critical bug?

I havent done a game

There you go. I am out of this thread.
Goodluck with whatever you want to try to understand about the crowd funding model.
gr8 d-b8 m8

 

[asestado]

Re: What fails about patreon model?

Please feel free to close this post, it has already failed what i wanted to do, sorry if i did create conflict, it wasnt my intention.

 

[Abandonedacc]

Re: What fails about patreon model?

Please feel free to close this post, it has already failed what i wanted to do, sorry if i did create conflict, it wasnt my intention.

its okey, i was expecting a something like this to happen kek.

 

[Mook]

Re: What fails about patreon model?

The Creator content leaks are the ones that offend me the most, and that's from the perspective of a patron, I'll see a message from a creator saying something like "I don't know who is doing it but please stop" when the project is really close to completion and it feels terrible, to work on a project for months or years only to have it leaked before its release. Lets just say I understand why some creators would prefer to avoid the patreon model for game content.