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ACT [Toffisama] Fairy War


ToxicShock

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Re: Fairy War

Clearly he was taking a page out of

(also cody from final fight)
 

JohnDoe

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Re: Fairy War

The metaphors were 95% comparable to the idea that every Mario Bros is just an update to the first one.
Wrong!
Your FPS example took different games from the same genre, which obviously have resemblances, for being part of the genre, but are in fact different.
Matrix being an update of tron is so stretched that isn't even funny as a joke.
The final fantasy example proves itself wrong since the games are extremely different from each other, aside from having RPG features, which includes them in the RPG genre, not the rpg "series".
As for zelda and metroid, i could argue about many details, but in the end they are pretty much all upgraded versions of the original(not counting spin offs), and if someone has a valid proof of otherwise, i'd like to know.

When i look at mario bros i see this:

Mario bros. June 1, 1983 Jp


New Super Mario Bros. Wii December 3, 2009 Jp


I'm not saying all mario games are the same, but a lot of them are nothing more than an updated verion of the first one.

Way to ruin my subtle joke...
 
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Ryka

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Re: Fairy War

Not every post has to have a joke in it. Why don't people get it? Maybe I'm just not that fun of a person...
 
E

ecoISDP

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Re: Fairy War

A necro thread became a old side scrolling game thread. Some things just have potential I guess, even after death.
 

Johannason

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Re: Fairy War (Wierd dissimilarity argument)

I must be missing the crucial element that makes JohnDoe's joke comparison valid while simultaneously invalidating slimeSupreme's. Or the part that makes the Tron-Matrix comparison fall flat, since I found its ludicrous reach to be what made it the funniest among them.

Lemme break these down into their essentials. Sadly, I'm dissecting the joke--which, like dissecting anything else, may garner more insight, but the thing loses its life in the process.

Doom: First-person shooter, monsters.
Later Doom games: New maps, Graphical updates. Eventually become squad-based.
Quake: First-person shooter, 3D mesh-rendered monsters.
Later Quake games: New maps, Graphical updates. Eventually become multiplayer-arena based.
Unreal: First-person shooter, fewer but bigger 3D mesh-rendered monsters.
Later Unreal games: Graphical updates. Immediate jump to multiplayer-arena base.

Tron: Human unwittingly sucked into virtual world.
Matrix: HUMANITY unwittingly sucked into virtual world.

Final Fantasy 'series': Small group takes on the world for its own good. New maps. Graphics steadily update. Introduction, removal, and change of many elements. Certain elements become 'Core', and always reappear.

Zelda/Metroid series: Single individual collects upgrades in quest to destroy paragon/source of corruption. New maps, graphical updates. So similar to EACH OTHER that a game was made that combines common factors (Cerberus).

Mario series: Overweight plumber jumps on things for poorly-explained reasons. New maps, graphical updates. Frequent deviation from core to feature major characters in totally unrelated activity (Mario sports) or wildly different gametype (Mario RPG, Paper Mario)

If anything, a Mario comparison is least apt.
 

JohnDoe

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Re: Fairy War

Doom: First-person shooter, monsters.
Later Doom games: New maps, Graphical updates. Eventually become squad-based.
Quake: First-person shooter, 3D mesh-rendered monsters.
Later Quake games: New maps, Graphical updates. Eventually become multiplayer-arena based.
Unreal: First-person shooter, fewer but bigger 3D mesh-rendered monsters.
Later Unreal games: Graphical updates. Immediate jump to multiplayer-arena base.
Slime say's they are all updates of the first Doom, and here falls the donkey, Wolfenstein 3D come out more than one year earlier, so his point is proven wrong by destroying it's foundation.

Tron: Human unwittingly sucked into virtual world.
Matrix: HUMANITY unwittingly sucked into virtual world.
Wrong!
Matrix: Human unwittingly sucked into the real world.
It's the opposite, but i'll admit that's a little bit funny, just a little.

Final Fantasy 'series': Small group takes on the world for its own good. New maps. Graphics steadily update. Introduction, removal, and change of many elements. Certain elements become 'Core', and always reappear.
I find it funny how you can say that Final Fantasy games are similar(beyond the obvious RPG features, but that's part of the genre, not the series), the storyes are different, the characters are different, the settings are different, even the soundtracks can be told apart with ease most of the time. By following your reasoning most games are the upgrade of the very first game with a group of people trying to save the world, which goes even beyond the term "genre", let alone "series", by being too general you lose the grasp on the subject.

Zelda/Metroid series: Single individual collects upgrades in quest to destroy paragon/source of corruption. New maps, graphical updates. So similar to EACH OTHER that a game was made that combines common factors (Cerberus).
Again you generalize far beyond the series you talk about, this time you barely even mention a shadow of what the games are.

Mario series: Overweight plumber jumps on things for poorly-explained reasons. New maps, graphical updates. Frequent deviation from core to feature major characters in totally unrelated activity (Mario sports) or wildly different gametype (Mario RPG, Paper Mario)

If anything, a Mario comparison is least apt.
It's not the least apt, because between all others is the least generalized, the most specific. I have to repeat myself cause the message doesn't seem to permeate, i have never said that all mario games are the updated versions of the first(no one seems to care about what i say...:( ). What i said is that nintendo kept updating it for 27 years, it's different because it doesn't imply all games, but certain specific games along the line from Arcade-NES-SNES-Gameboy-NDS-Wii, that look the same, with better graphic, the point of the joke was that these games are so extremely similar that they seem like the updated version of the first one(since the story has always been nihilistic...), same character, same playing style, same look with better graphic, and i'm not talking about the platformer genre, not making weird comparisons with other games, or the gaming world in general, like you(and slime) do, i'm being specific, that strenghten my point against an extremely generalized and vague argument.

That being said, it was a damn joke...:rolleyes:
 

slimeSupreme

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Re: Fairy War

Slime say's they are all updates of the first Doom...
Nope, and just that assumption there was why I didn't respond before. Never said that. But then I'm known to suck at getting my point across so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I didn't want to go to a lengthy debate. Still don't. But when someone puts words in my mouth claiming I said something I never did, and then refute THOSE claims, I just tend to see a lost cause and take a hike.

So here's what I said: Quakes are all one and the same, because they're series. Final Fantasies are all pretty much one and the same, because they too are a series. That applies to any game series. Saying they're just updates of the same game is such a stretch that you might as well say every 3D FPS game ever created is a mere update of the original Doom, or Wolfenstein.

Deliberately grabbing that modern Mario screenie from a game and situation that was *meant* to be a classic 2D "return to the origins" type of thing is about as biased and out-of-context as you can get. When a person effectively does their very best to prove they are biased, that casts a lot of doubt on their reasoning and the validity of any "proof" they might have. Which is kinda my issue here. :)

I don't care either way though. Never much liked Mario. I just don't see how they're updates while the other series aren't. And Tron had so much in common with Matrix it's ridiculous. That's coming from a huge Matrix fan mind you, I'd never bash the great movie for what it is. But I've no qualms admitting to the huge connection between those two.
 

JohnDoe

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Re: Fairy War

Yes, just like Quake, UT etc are updates within themselves and basically just updates of Doom.
Slime say's they are all updates of the first Doom, and here falls the donkey, Wolfenstein 3D come out more than one year earlier, so his point is proven wrong by destroying it's foundation.
Nope, and just that assumption there was why I didn't respond before. Never said that. But then I'm known to suck at getting my point across so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I didn't want to go to a lengthy debate. Still don't. But when someone puts words in my mouth claiming I said something I never did, and then refute THOSE claims, I just tend to see a lost cause and take a hike.
Some times i wonder if people read their own posts, other times i wonder if people really like to take seriously an obvious joke, but i guess i should find a better way to waste my time than wonder what people think...

So here's what I said: Quakes are all one and the same, because they're series. Final Fantasies are all pretty much one and the same, because they too are a series. That applies to any game series. Saying they're just updates of the same game is such a stretch that you might as well say every 3D FPS game ever created is a mere update of the original Doom, or Wolfenstein.

Deliberately grabbing that modern Mario screenie from a game and situation that was *meant* to be a classic 2D "return to the origins" type of thing is about as biased and out-of-context as you can get. When a person effectively does their very best to prove they are biased, that casts a lot of doubt on their reasoning and the validity of any "proof" they might have. Which is kinda my issue here. :)

I don't care either way though. Never much liked Mario. I just don't see how they're updates while the other series aren't. And Tron had so much in common with Matrix it's ridiculous. That's coming from a huge Matrix fan mind you, I'd never bash the great movie for what it is. But I've no qualms admitting to the huge connection between those two.
For someone that doesn't want to make an argument out of this, you're taking my joke a little too far in my opinion, but i like debating, so i don't mind.;)

Quakes aren't all the same cause they are a series, they are all the same because they are FPS, all FPS look the same, sometimes there is a good story(rarely), but more or less you pick one and all others are clones with more or less bugs, and better or worse graphic, but that means nothing, it's like saying all videogames are based on a binary system so all games are the same thing, books are filled with letters so books tell the same things, if you wanna be general i can be too, since all matter is made of atoms, you're the same as shit.:rolleyes:

Back on track, the final fantasy example is really the only one i can't agree with, as everyone that ever played an RPG should know, the most important thing an RPG needs are charismatic characters and a good plot, since they tend to be long and have repetitive gameplay, to keep the player hooked till the end. I have serious objections about the gameplay, after FF2 each game in the main series has very original features about characters development and gameplay in general(keeping in mind that all RPG elements are considered part of the genre, not the series). Now, from my point of view on RPGs, differences in the gamplay are secondary but still obviously present in the FF games, but most importantly all characters and stories(main series) are very different, "The story never repeats". I would really like you to tell me with your words what kind of messed up reasoning are you using to make them "all pretty much one and the same". I said before, i'll say now, and i'm pretty sure i'll have to say it again, you are generalizing too much, it is pointless if you try to make it into anything more than a joke.:rolleyes:

I find it funny that bringing out visual proof of a statement has become "out of context", but i liked the way you tried to poison my statements with a subtle play on words, since you didn't have any solid argumentation to prove my point wrong.:)
 

Johannason

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Re: Fairy War

Quakes aren't all the same cause they are a series, they are all the same because they are FPS, all FPS look the same, sometimes there is a good story(rarely), but more or less you pick one and all others are clones with more or less bugs, and better or worse graphic, but that means nothing, it's like saying all videogames are based on a binary system so all games are the same thing, books are filled with letters so books tell the same things, if you wanna be general i can be too, since all matter is made of atoms, you're the same as shit.:rolleyes:
This was actually the entirety of my point. Well, that and the debate itself being silly, yet entertaining. There's no clear division between the general examples and your "specific" Mario example. All Mario Brothers remakes are the same because they are platformers, featuring the same characters and enemies, and a similar premise.

Most of the other examples given also share the same gametype, the basic premise, and several characters or enemies. And where there aren't enough characters or enemies shared across the series, there are other elements of similarity. In every Final Fantasy game, you can cast "Cure" or "Ultima". In most of them, you can summon Ramuh. (What FFX was thinking with Ixion, I'll never know). Bahamut is a staple, though. And what would a Final Fantasy game be without someone named Cid, and an airship called Highwind? (FF6, I think, where Setzer owns the ship for a change of pace). FF throws some changeups pretty much for the exclusive purpose of saying "But this time will be DIFFERENT" while holding the "It's not different AT ALL, is it Steve" in reserve.

I had -expected- one of you to call "Wolfenstien 3D" on the FPS example. But really, is there any fundamental difference between "One man fights Soldiers and Monsters from the Third Reich, on Earth" and "One man fights Soldiers and Monsters from Hell Itself, on One of the Moons of Mars"? Well, aside from the obvious time differential, it seems to me just a case of "History repeats itself".
 

Games Dude

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Re: Fairy War

"One man fights Soldiers and Monsters from Hell Itself, on One of the Moons of Mars"? Well, aside from the obvious time differential, it seems to me just a case of "History repeats itself".
Protip; that IS the actual storyline of DOOM. The first two games are the history of the third. History repeats itself.
 

Johannason

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Re: Fairy War

Protip; that IS the actual storyline of DOOM.
I... am aware. That's... why I said it. Just like "One man fights Soldiers and Monsters from the Third Reich, on Earth" IS the actual storyline of Wolfenstein 3D. Try reading my -entire- post rather than thinking my argument is fragmented because you've only skimmed fragments of it.
 

JohnDoe

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Re: Fairy War

In every Final Fantasy game, you can cast "Cure" or "Ultima". In most of them, you can summon Ramuh. (What FFX was thinking with Ixion, I'll never know). Bahamut is a staple, though. And what would a Final Fantasy game be without someone named Cid, and an airship called Highwind? (FF6, I think, where Setzer owns the ship for a change of pace).
This is plain stupid, i can accept the rest to some extent(since the whole discussion was based on a joke), but this isn't even fun to discuss about anymore.
First, you can't cast Ultima in every mainstream game(let's not include spin offs for now), if you need to spam randomness at least double check your sources.
Ramuh as a summon is present in FFIV, FFV, FFVI, FFVII and FFIX, it's 5/13 of the mainstream series(not counting FFX-2, which counts as one with FFX), so the correct thing to say is that "You can't summon ramuh in most of them"
I guess Bahamut is indeed present in almost all the games, but Bahamut is also a gigantic fish with Kujata on top from the arabian mythology, and let's not forget you can find bahamut in DnD, i wonder if we could say Final Fantasy and DnD are the same thing.
As for Cid, well the character of cid is always different, it's not the same person through the games, they just share the name, we could also call for biggs and wedge, which sometimes aren't even human. In mario you don't have just the same name for the main character, it's the same damn person, why bother making stupid comparisons when it's obvious that they don't stand a chance?
The highwind is a ship in a handful of FFs, which made doubt your knowledge of the series, in earlier games it was part of the name of a character, much like cid, biggs and wedge.

FF throws some changeups pretty much for the exclusive purpose of saying "But this time will be DIFFERENT" while holding the "It's not different AT ALL, is it Steve" in reserve.
This is pathetic, considering the weak arguments you pulled, which are either wong or barely appliable, but most of all are minor background details, saying there is nothing different at all is beyond stupid, and i'm fairly sure you are well aware of this, if this is all you could find you should stop wasting your time.
 

Moonchaos

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Re: Fairy War

I would say return to topic >.<

Someone did a update on FW. He just did it as one on one fight where you can play the enemies or the fairies.

Still it would be nice where would be new stages/enemies, but ithink Toffi is fine with it and consider it as complete.
Otherwise he would need to change the story from FW and FW 2.

So it wount happen. Maybe he schould just create something like a mugen, so the players can add new charakters himself with the same engine of course.

There is still a lot of potential in the Fairy War games.
 

JohnDoe

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Re: Fairy War

I would say return to topic >.<

Someone did a update on FW. He just did it as one on one fight where you can play the enemies or the fairies.

Still it would be nice where would be new stages/enemies, but ithink Toffi is fine with it and consider it as complete.
Otherwise he would need to change the story from FW and FW 2.

So it wount happen. Maybe he schould just create something like a mugen, so the players can add new charakters himself with the same engine of course.

There is still a lot of potential in the Fairy War games.
M.U.G.E.N. is an engine, as game maker is, so you can actually add characters already if you wanted to, but making a character is actually pretty complicate and can take weeks to months, depending how much you work on it. He doesn't have to do anything but release informations on how he programmed the game(which could help make things easier than taking guesses, but FW was pretty simple anyway), the problem is if you can find someone willing to take the effort.

Besides he already said a long time ago in his blog, and several times after, that he doesn't intend to update his old games, but rather make new ones in the time it would take.
 

CDom

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Re: Fairy War

People, it's a rule.

6) Please try to stay at least remotely on topic

You have digressed long enough, please cease this and return to the original topic. A majority of internet fights/arguments resemble something along the lines of this:




:cool: Real reason we're suppose to be here:







Let the porn recommence. Thank you~!

P.S. I know this is returning back, but it's still consisting of a lot of bickering from what I can tell; hence this post is reflecting on the general nature of the last 10 or so posts.
 

JohnDoe

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Re: Fairy War

The thread was already going back on topic, don't throw fuel in the fire.:)
 

Alias

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Re: Fairy War

Way to fail at reading the last line.
 
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