The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

[OAMP]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

Also did a quick edit, do want to say sorry for coming off as a bit rude in the first draft. I think we can all see why some historians have way to high blood pressure though.

 

[XSI]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

That's some pretty good stuff. Looks like I was just misinformed then

I did know the Byzantine empire was pretty much just waiting to fall though. At that point everything was just waiting for a new power to move in

That said, still sucked to be conquered

 

[OAMP]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

That's exactly why I studied that era. Empires in decay fascinate me, and the 7th century Byzantine Empire is one of the best examples. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was a dystopia, as that word carries too many modern connotations, but it came pretty damn close. Millions dead over a plague that popped up every few years, they *won* the war with Persia, but at a cost so high they had to raise the taxes over 100% just to support their own weight, which was actually the *better* deal because Persia was wiped off the map for a time. There was also the first rumblings of internal Eastern Christianity dissent. Not necessarily the Catholic-Orthodox split, but the start of the internal Orthodox herseys like Iconoclasm. I mean, it would indeed suck to live then, but at the same time I'd probably gleefully leap at the chance to see first hand, heh.

 

[Crawdaddy]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

Both Christianity and Islam are "universal salvation religions", which means that, which means that they believe that 1) the messag of the religion applies to all people everywhere at all times, and 2) you're doomed if you don't convert to the religion in question.

Basically, this kind of religious foundation tends to breed a strongly expansionistic view, so unsurprisingly, both Muslim and Christian groups have been able to legitimize their conquests and other oppressive acts (like slavery, colonization, or ethnic cleansing).

The key phrase here is "legitimize". If you actually go in and study the history, there's serious contention about just how "pious" and faith-based these conquests actually were. It's sort of like Western military intervetions in our present times. There are people who talk about how it's about expanding human rights and democracy and all that, but at the same time it's clear that several of these interventions are about ensuring that countries remain willing to trade with us so we can keep making money, or so that they won't align with an enemy state or whatever. So an Spanish conquistador might say he's all about the baby Jesus becoming famous with the Carib Indians or whatever, but whether that is his actual goal, or if he's just in it for the sweet, sweet gold isn't necessarily dependent on what they say.

 

[Cappy]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

The key difference here imo, is that the Bible doesn't imply and never says anything even close to something like, "All interpretations are correct in the eyes of God". The Quran does, which means moderate and peaceful Muslims, if they follow that tenant (They usually do) never rebuke extremists or call them out. The moment you stop holding yourself or people in your group accountable, even if only by social ostracization, you allow yourself open to the absolute worst kinds of corruption.

Don't get me wrong, the Christian churches are definitely corrupt and have been open to corruption for a long time, but usually not nearly as bad as in Islam, and when some group like the Westboro Baptist Church shows up most Christians will rebuke them, turn their backs, etc... When was the last time you heard a Muslim talk shit about ISIS? I bet you even if you have(Which I seriously doubt), it's not nearly as often as you'd hear a Christian talk shit about Westboro Baptist.

If you're part of some part of organized group and extremists are ruining your image and making other people's lives turn to shit, or making other people extremely uncomfortable, HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE. Otherwise your entire group is liable.

 

[Ryka]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

Muslims, Christians, whatever.

Human beings are the only animal that have started wars.

If you're going to pin it on a race, at least acknowledge that your race did something too.

 

[OAMP]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

The key difference here imo, is that the Bible doesn't imply and never says anything even close to something like, "All interpretations are correct in the eyes of God". The Quran does, which means moderate and peaceful Muslims, if they follow that tenant (They usually do) never rebuke extremists or call them out. The moment you stop holding yourself or people in your group accountable, even if only by social ostracization, you allow yourself open to the absolute worst kinds of corruption.

Don't get me wrong, the Christian churches are definitely corrupt and have been open to corruption for a long time, but usually not nearly as bad as in Islam, and when some group like the Westboro Baptist Church shows up most Christians will rebuke them, turn their backs, etc... When was the last time you heard a Muslim talk shit about ISIS? I bet you even if you have(Which I seriously doubt), it's not nearly as often as you'd hear a Christian talk shit about Westboro Baptist.

If you're part of some part of organized group and extremists are ruining your image and making other people's lives turn to shit, or making other people extremely uncomfortable, HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE. Otherwise your entire group is liable.

Off hand, several times in the past 48 hours.

 

[Cappy]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

Human beings are the only animal that have started wars.

WRONG. Jungle cats that congregate come to blows with each other over territory and females, it's relatively rare because nature is much better than humans are at dividing space efficiently, but it's known to happen. Ngogo Chimps as a tribe are also known to regularly go on raids outside their territory to attack other chimp tribes, males are killed, females are spared (But her babies eaten), and I'm pretty sure there are more examples of animal warfare but I would have to do research to say.

And also insects fight other breeds of their same species like crazy, if you count them as animals. Especially ants.

Off hand, several times in the past 48 hours.

I'm honestly surprised, where do you live, and was it different people or just one individual?

 

[ToxicShock]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

The key difference here imo, is that the Bible doesn't imply and never says anything even close to something like, "All interpretations are correct in the eyes of God". The Quran does, which means moderate and peaceful Muslims, if they follow that tenant (They usually do) never rebuke extremists or call them out. The moment you stop holding yourself or people in your group accountable, even if only by social ostracization, you allow yourself open to the absolute worst kinds of corruption.

Don't get me wrong, the Christian churches are definitely corrupt and have been open to corruption for a long time, but usually not nearly as bad as in Islam, and when some group like the Westboro Baptist Church shows up most Christians will rebuke them, turn their backs, etc... When was the last time you heard a Muslim talk shit about ISIS? I bet you even if you have(Which I seriously doubt), it's not nearly as often as you'd hear a Christian talk shit about Westboro Baptist.

If you're part of some part of organized group and extremists are ruining your image and making other people's lives turn to shit, or making other people extremely uncomfortable, HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE. Otherwise your entire group is liable.

Off hand, several times in the past 48 hours.

I went ahead and underlined another obviously bullshit statement.

Cappy also seems to be forgetting that, by true tenants, Islam is supposed to support and protect 'people of the book,' meaning others that share the Abrahamic faiths, Christianity and Judaism, while Christianity, though believing of fair treatment of your neighbors through Jesus, still backs pushing your religion onto them.

 

[OAMP]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

I live in the middle of bumfuck nowhere, but I've met lots of interesting people in my time and still keep in touch with most.

Honestly Cappy, I'd like you to give me an objective reason to believe anything you say, because you kind of seem out of touch. I'd rather not resort to making us both start citing our sources, because there's a great many things I'd rather do with my time, but it really seems to me like you're just making stuff up.

 

[Cappy]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

It's honestly a combination of personal experience dealing with practitioners of Islam online and talking to other people who aren't about it, if I'm talking absolute shit then I owe an apology.

They say that the only correct interpretation of the Quran is through reading it in Arabic so in that sense I'm sort of destined for failure before even beginning to read verses from it. After a brief google-search I think what's happened is the same thing that they did to extremists, anti-islam folks fed me what is probably a half-verse from what should have been a full one and gave it to me out of context.

I've tried searching for it but I don't know the numbers and the specific words aren't bringing up any results, so I can only say that I must have been lied to multiple times from different individual sources.

 

[BlueSlime]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

I regularly interact with Muslim families in my day to day life. They all rebuke and are disgusted by ISIS.

And they are rightfully scared of the backlash they might suffer from narrow-minded non-muslims.

Two wrongs won't make a right.

 

[OAMP]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

It's honestly a combination of personal experience dealing with practitioners of Islam online and talking to other people who aren't about it, if I'm talking absolute shit then I owe an apology.

They say that the only correct interpretation of the Quran is through reading it in Arabic so in that sense I'm sort of destined for failure before even beginning to read verses from it. After a brief google-search I think what's happened is the same thing that they did to extremists, anti-islam folks fed me what is probably a half-verse from what should have been a full one and gave it to me out of context.

I've tried searching for it but I don't know the numbers and the specific words aren't bringing up any results, so I can only say that I must have been lied to multiple times from different individual sources.

Understandable. The "only truly understood in Arabic" can be a bit of a problem, but at the same time from an academic perspective I'd agree. I always argue that only a native speaker of Hebrew can really understand the Old Testament, after all, and other similar matters. It's how we get debates as if maybe Jesus was actually named Joshua.

I really do hate to toot my own horn, especially because as with everyone, people are free to take or leave my word as they see fit, but I have been a bit of a minor Islam scholar in the past (very very minor). It's undeniable that there's some pretty derp things in there, but at the same time there's also a lot of contradictions that counteract that, in a way. There's plenty of stories of very high ranking people absolutely flying off their handle at subordinates who commit serious abuses. As with pretty much anything though, human nature means people are going to pick and choose what to believe. Very ironically, one of the major stores from back in the day combines the "all interpretations are correct" with "thou shalt not kill" tenants that get brought up so much. The original formation of "all interpretations are correct" is because when the first waves of converts started happening many of the soldiers refused to accept surrenders because "they're just converting to get out battle alive". This enraged the leadership, who informed the soldiers that merely claiming to be Muslim was good enough to be accepted, and no one should be treated poorly just because you disagreed with them. This was a massive step forward with most thinking of the time. A lot of the controversial elements were, which just makes me facepalm harder when those tenants do get abused.

As some have said previously, a lot of the times religion was just an excuse used on top of other reasons of a more economic nature. I typically see these conflicts mostly still in those terms. Religion is just the paint job on a conflict that would be happening anyway, regardless of if Islam and/or Christianity existed. Furthermore, if Europe was Muslim and the Middle East was Christian, the rest of history being the same aside from the flip flop (it wouldn't work that way, but if it did), I'd have no doubt nothing would change, we'd just be using a different adjective to describe the conflict. That's mostly a conversation for another day, though.

 

[Crawdaddy]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

That muslims believe all interpretations of the Quran is equal is patently wrong. You should look up fiqh, or the different schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Then there's the attitude towards Ahmadiyya muslims, which are a splinter religious movement that's been persecuted. Not to mention the age-long conflict between Shia and Sunni groups.

And yeah, lots of muslims have been calling out ISIS. Not least the muslims actually murdered by ISIS itself. Which, you know, tends to be the vast majority of their victims.

 

[super_slicer]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

In today's news... 17th November 2015 05:50 Glorious ignorance. Watch your kid get shot in the back of the head while he's on the ground, your friend choked to death, or your sister raped and then forced to hang herself, then talk about how good it is to be compliant and it's not a problem.

Video, or it didn't happen. I refuse to believe any accusations that lack concrete proof. How could I believe anything coming from a supposedly aggrieved party? Consistently humans will lie to get revenge on a person who has killed a family member or friend justifiably. It's part of our nature as pack, or herd animals.

Now, yes there are abuses of power, always have been and always will be. That's why I put the (most likely) in there. But these people make it sound as if cops are just rounding up African Americans (Have we decided on a politically correct term YET?) and executing them on the street at regular intervals. Which by the way, does happen to people in other parts of the world.

 

[Hopeyouguess62]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

Slicer, I don't think I would have phrased my response to

You must be registered to see the links

in the same way. "Send them back to the tribes they came from," seems just a tad provocative.

I do agree with your general conclusion regarding the article. I spoilered most of my discussion thereof, because I got wordy (typical of me):

Spoiler

I think the article you were discussing was overly dramatic and "woe is us." I'm a white person, but for all of my adult life I've worked with black people. Just like white people, some of them are assholes, and some of them are really nice people. Most are regular people, just like you and I. Generally decent folk who occasionally bullshit.

With that said, I have never known a black person who was constantly scared for his/her life, looking over their shoulder for the cops to kill them. There were a few moments of hilarity. For example, at one point, we were going to do a delivery to a very... backwoods... area. My black co-worker commented, "Hey man, we're cool and all. But if we see a confederate flag, or a burning cross, I'm gonna run over you to get the fuck out of there." My response was that they'd likely kill me first anyway, because I was the white guy associating with the black guy.

We also at one point delivered to the "projects," a predominantly black part of downtown, and my black co-worker (a different one) warned me that it was a dangerous part of town. Thanks to his warning, I was nervous. Nothing bad happened.

My point is that the majority of black people that I know aren't freaking out because the cops are out to get them.

The author of the article raises an interesting point, with the percentage of black males shot by cops compared to the general population. Unfortunately, this is a problem that I feel might be related more to the entertainment industry than to the police. For example, when I write "thug" or "gangsta" rap, I'm betting that the vast majority of readers will involuntarily picture a black male. If I talk about gang warfare, or "busting a cap," minorities are what comes up. If a black person says, "I grew up in the streets," it's likely to be taken more seriously than a white person saying the exact same thing. If a cop is wrestling with his/her adrenaline while deciding whether or not to shoot at a potential threat, that small amount of conditioning might tip the scales.

Should it? No. Absolutely not. People should never judge a book by its cover. But our culture practically trains its members to fear black people, especially males. I can't condone the police that overstep their authority in ANY situation, but I don't hold them 100% responsible for the mistake.

tl;dr I agree that the author of the article is being overly dramatic (to the point where I initially thought it might be parody). Also, I think that cops shoot more black males NOT because the cops are racist bastards (though a few of them might be), but because as a society we have been conditioned to fear black males automatically, and cops are often put in situations that are already scary.

 

[super_slicer]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

I can see how it might come across that way. To clarify: my intention was to do the best reasonable job we can to put these people in the situation they would be in had the enslavement of their ancestors never occured, to my knowledge most were taken from tribal societies and I'm unsure of whether those still exist today or have become something different, I decided that this phrasing would be the most accurate way to convey the idea, because just dropping them off at some nebulous location in Africa isn't quite good enough.

As for why there are a larger number of African American deaths in law enforcement related incidents. I believe a large part of this is a statistics and geography problem, the point of that lengthy discussion being that more African Americans have more negative interactions with law enforcement then Caucasians, so with that of course there are going to be a larger number of fatal incidents. Is this excusable? I'm not sure, but it certainly isn't because the establishment is out to kill people that aren't white.

 

[Antithetical Inquiry]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

I can see how it might come across that way. To clarify: my intention was to do the best reasonable job we can to put these people in the situation they would be in had the enslavement of their ancestors never occured, to my knowledge most were taken from tribal societies and I'm unsure of whether those still exist today or have become something different, I decided that this phrasing would be the most accurate way to convey the idea, because just dropping them off at some nebulous location in Africa isn't quite good enough.

As for why there are a larger number of African American deaths in law enforcement related incidents. I believe a large part of this is a statistics and geography problem, the point of that lengthy discussion being that more African Americans have more negative interactions with law enforcement then Caucasians, so with that of course there are going to be a larger number of fatal incidents. Is this excusable? I'm not sure, but it certainly isn't because the establishment is out to kill people that aren't white.

When the establishment is run by people, you will inherently have individuals coloring it with their own viewpoints and bias. Our mistake that we repeat again and again, is generalizing a group of people, regardless if it's grouped by skin color, religion, or profession. Members of that group, and of society in general, need to hold themselves and others accountable, instead of letting their individual actions fade into the miasma of generality.

 

[XSI]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

I can see how it might come across that way. To clarify: my intention was to do the best reasonable job we can to put these people in the situation they would be in had the enslavement of their ancestors never occured, to my knowledge most were taken from tribal societies and I'm unsure of whether those still exist today or have become something different, I decided that this phrasing would be the most accurate way to convey the idea, because just dropping them off at some nebulous location in Africa isn't quite good enough.

(...)

Most of the tribes the slaves were taken from were conquered entirely by other tribes. The majority no longer exist purely because they've been entirely sold into slavery and/or killed off and had their lands resettled on by the victorious tribes. Who then potentially were attacked by other tribes and had the same thing happen to them, and so on until today where slavery and tribal warfare still happens in some parts of Africa

Africa was a rough place to be at the time

That said, I believe Liberia was an experiment in sending back former slaves to Africa (I think it was voluntarily too, but I didn't look into this too deeply). Liberia is kind of a messed up place right now though

 

[freeko]

Re: The Reputation Hilarity/Insanity thread

So how about that soccer/football friendly between Turkey and Greece yesterday?