Well I have doubt Myself , My Liana copies is at 24 UP
But then @Altrius
He have his at -3 CR , while he used it for 4'th CR
That mean , even his -3CR Liana which he AW 2'nd get it's free copies at 24 UP too
And yeah , this just become suck
What about Metus - Hibari - Shino free copies?
They are +5 then??
Well... we'll see~
If given the choice, Oracle should usually be the better choice. +10 range trumps 50ish attack and 50% mitigation is far more eHP than the defenses Hierophant is given. Also reduces the stress of a healer dealing with splash damage attacks.
Is that 50% work on herself or allies in her range ?
20/27 - Uzume moved to SS tier from S tier, Helena moved to S tier from B tier, Flamel moved to A tier from B tier, Fermi moved to B tier from C tier, Vivian added to S tier, Regina/Livre added to The Jury's Out list, Gretel needs reevaluation.
Reasoning:
* Uzume and Helena are now the best first deploy units in the game and have strong synergies with Jerome and Totono.
* Flamel's SAW is recognized as having extremely high value with a tiny cooldown. Fermi is a bit of a tag-along, but probably deserves more praise for her healer buff and great 100ish second consecutive skill combo.
* Vivian is a dancer, an inherently broken class. Vivian also happens to be a really good dancer, too.
* We need to see Gretel's new stats and performance.
Frankly, there aren't a lot of maps where the placement of a healer being able to reach even one unit is going to be dependent on 10 range. And you shouldn't be placing your healers in places that they eat much, if any, damage. And you're relying on a coin flip for it to work anyway.
Oracle just sounds really situational to me. The dozens of levels worth of stats that you get from Hierophant will be beneficial to literally every map. There aren't any maps where you won't benefit from extra stats.
I actually feel like Oracle got the raw end of the deal by not getting any stats at all. Even half of what Hierophant got would have probably made Oracle the go-to for me.
can black units switch back and forth their 2AW (for a cost like SAW maybe) or its a final choice? my sincerest apologies if it has been said and i somehow didnt see it despite reading everything and petite signature twice)
personally i totally love the +10 range, maybe its because saria is my top/main healer and i often see how her range perk allow her to reach and heal units that other healers cant.
I could go on a long spiel about this, but I'll just leave this short list of bullet points:
* Healing potential is finite and based on the max HP, defense and MR of your units, so you are incorrect about increased stats always being useful. B Iris and Camilla frequently full heal during skill due to the former's high multiplier and the latter's mitigation. In normal content, the only time when you'll need more healing than what these two provide is for bandits and a couple gacha monks, in all likeliness. If you DO need the additional healing, you are likely a newer player.
* In difficult content(which, let's be honest, is where AW2 will be the most meaningful) ranged slots are at a premium. 10 range really can be and frequently is the difference between a strategy being viable or not. In some majin, you can only rely on a single healer for your primary tanks - +10 range is definitely make or break. +50 attack almost never will be.
* I've already explained why the 50% chance of nullify is better than the HP/DEF/status immunity so I won't bother going over that, but this is also pretty useful for difficult content.
tl;dr: Hierophant is possibly better for newer players since the attack increase is actually relevant. Oracle is definitely better for veterans with wide unit availability.
eletr: it has been stated, but it's fine. you get a dupe black if you AW2 a black. you need to level the unit again, but there's no worry about not being able to go both routes.
Only if units existed in a vacuum, which they don't. First of all, 50 attack is the low end of what most units are getting. Second of all, by the time you factor in passives and skills with attack multipliers, you're looking at a triple digit difference in HP per heal, with a potential difference of thousands or even tens of thousands of healed HP over the course of a single map.
As a result,
* Healing potential is finite and based on the max HP, defense and MR of your units, so you are incorrect about increased stats always being useful. B Iris and Camilla frequently full heal during skill due to the former's high multiplier and the latter's mitigation. In normal content, the only time when you'll need more healing than what these two provide is for bandits and a couple gacha monks, in all likeliness. If you DO need the additional healing, you are likely a newer player.
is your only valid point. And I'd say situations in which you need more than one healer for a tank to cover damage are significantly more common than situations where you'd need 10 range or 50% damage mitigation on your healer, meaning you're not hitting the HP cap on each heal. It also doesn't factor in situations in which you need to top off units because, as you said, some maps have ranged slots at a premium and you have one healer dealing with multiple allied units.
The stats are still better in more situations.
To clarify what I'm getting at here, you're looking at this through an incredibly narrow scope of what-if scenarios, almost all of which can ultimately be worked around by adjusting strategy to your units. Most of the scenarios you're playing out aren't going to happen or can be dealt with in other manners. Stats will make the battle easier every time.
Honestly speaking it is pretty much hard to be a Newbie and getting 2nd aw. Only vets (dunno when one can be called vet thou) or at least those which have some varity in AW units should second aw stuff as it takes already some time to be ready to get stuff AWed for "Newbies"
thanks for the reply. though getting a lv1 dupe and having to level it up all over again is not quite the same as having the option of switching.
especially since i assume if i had a dupe black my first though would be cost reducing the main one (of failing to, actually )
anyway im not a top end player and i chose oracle over hierophant. people will have opinions and argue anyway
Oracle does benefit B.Iris more then hierophant no matter how much Daverost wants to deny it as you need no matter what in whatever Endgame content 2 or more healer. So making her a oracle is better as her buff can benefit a lot more by reaching possibly 1 placement more which she could normally not get or she would have to be placed nearer to that Position which could also be a fatal mistake.
These aren't situations that haven't been encountered before.
Like I said, what these arguments are amounting to is a matter of strategy.
Have we been able to clear these maps before Oracle, without their 10 range and 50% personal damage mitigation? Of course we have. And we'll continue to.
And if we can do it now, what's stopping us from doing it more efficiently with stronger units?
These "what-if" scenarios aren't really doing it for me.
EDIT: To clarify this post, too, I'm not saying Oracle doesn't have its uses. What I'm saying is what I said before. I don't think that Oracle's situational usefulness justifies it not getting any stat boost at all. With Oracle, you might have a rare map that needs 10 range (even +15 range rarely makes a difference with Range I), and you might have a map that puts your oracle under heavy fire resulting in nulled damage 50% of the time being useful, but usually you won't have either of those. And in situations where you don't, you gain literally nothing else from choosing Oracle over Hierophant.
My point was and continues to be that Oracle needed some stats instead of no stats so that it can at least be useful over AW1 all of the time instead of rarely. I just think the balancing is bad, especially with how they've chosen to distribute Onyx via rainbow crystals (and thankfully events, though they're not making that easy on people). It's a lot of work for no gain 99.9% of the time.
EDIT2: Ultimately, the discussion only applies to black units, where you get a duplicate anyway, so you can always do both. I think I'd just rather pick Hierophant first since the benefit is global and do Oracle after for more specific and situational uses. Oracle can just never be a high priority for me.
Revival Mission "Homeless General" (亡国の将):
-Difficulty and Drops of Certain Missions Modified.
-Available From Monday to Sunday (Oct 31st 0:00~Nov 6th 23:59).
-Bonbori has same skill as Shuuka '猛将の鼓舞'.
Shuuka (シュウカ): Valiant General's Inspiration (猛将の鼓舞): (60s; raises attack of all allies by 10%; AS: 64; WT: 57.5; CT: 115) Clear Mirror, Still Water (明鏡止水): (35s; attack 1.5x; block and attack # +1; self: physical evasion 30% [60%]; AS: 64; WT: 22.5; CT: 45) Swallow in Flight Dance (飛燕の舞): 30% physical evasion.
Xiao (シャオ): Assassination I (暗殺I): (15s; attack 1.5x; instant death attack [10%]; AS: 62; WT: 36.7; CT: 55) Oriental Bow Killing Art (東方弓殺術): (30s; attack 2.0x; instant death attack [10%]; AS: 102; WT: 13.3; CT: None) Front Tactician Max HP Up (前衛軍師の最大HPアップ): front tactician class HP +10% if Xiao is a team member.
Runaways from Another Country (20/1) (異国の逃亡者):
Rosalie (10), Iron Soldier (70x2), RC () Story:
???: "Shuuka-sama! The pursuers are coming. Please flee this way!"
Shuuka: "Xiao! Let go! I'm not running any more!!"
Anna: "Prince! There's people being attacked by monsters over there! Let's help them!"
Shuuka and Xiao Introduction:
Shuuka: "My name is Shuuka. The monsters earlier were scouts that were after those of us who escaped."
Shuuka: "I'm ashamed to say our country has been destroyed during the monsters' invasion."
Shuuka: "Of course, I would've fought until the bitter end, but my servant Xiao kept fussing that there's no point to fighting, so I've been living in shame."
Shuuka: "However, I won't give up. I can't show my face to my dead brethren until I have my revenge, even if I have to stab each and every monster that attacked my dear country."
Shuuka: "It looks like the main contingent of monsters will also arrive here one of these days. The decisive battle is drawing near. I'll fight until my last breath, taking as many monsters down with me as possible."
Shuuka: "This is my battle. I'm thankful for the help you gave earlier, but you must not interfere with what's to come."
Shuuka: "... Please. Don't deprive me of my place to die. Well then, excuse me."
Xiao: "I'm the servant of Shuuka-sama, Xiao. Thanks for your help earlier. Also, I'm sorry about all of this."
Xiao: "Shuuka-sama and I escaped from the country on the other side of the great desert all the way here."
Xiao: "Nothing good will come from letting Shuuka-sama confront the monster hordes on her own..."
Xiao: "Right now, revenge against the monsters that destroyed our country has become the only thing Shuuka-sama has been living for..."
Xiao: "She's not only clever, but also an excellent strategist. If she keeps casting herself into these reckless fights, she'll really lose her life one of these days."
Xiao: "Even in the upcoming battle, I'm certain she's going to put herself in the front line."
Xiao: "Not to mention the monsters that destroyed our country are strong, it would be very dangerous for Shuuka-sama to receive a direct attack."
Xiao: "As the servant of Shuuka-sama, it is my duty to protect her life, but... To be honest, I'm keenly aware of my inadequacy."
Xiao: "I know this is a selfish request. ... But I beg of you. I want you to help Shuuka-sama."
Xiao: "Shuuka-sama used to be a very kind and strong person. Even now, I remember us always being told that working together and cooperating is strength."
Xiao: "Fighting together with you may bring Shuuka-sama back to her former self...! Prince, I beg of you...!"
Oni Attack (30/1) (鬼の襲来):
Elaine (10), Leo (70x2), RC (x2), Bonbori () Story:
Soldier: "Report. The enemy forces are approaching, and heading straight this way."
Xiao: "Those are the giants that attacked our country!"
Xiao: "A single blow from those giants easily tore down the castle walls."
Xiao: "No matter how strong you are, you're no match for them, Shuuka-sama."
Anna: "Don't worry, please let us handle them. We'll protect you."
(end)
Shuuka: "I told you not to interfere!"
Anna: "Why are you angry? We may win the upcoming fights if we work together."
Shuuka: "This isn't about winning or losing! The monsters that destroyed my country must be defeated by my own hands!"
Anna: "Even if you die? Why are you saying such a thing?"
Anna: "Do you really think you have nothing else to lose?"
Anna: "Please don't turn your eyes away from the one by your side worrying about your life."
Shuuka: "Shut up! ... Don't act like you understand!"
Xiao: "... Shuuka-sama."
Cow-head Monster (40/3) (牛頭の魔物):
Soma (10), Bernard (10), Bronze Fairy (70x2), RC III (x2), Bonbori Story:
???: "Gufufufufu..."
Shuuka: "You're the monster that killed His Majesty... Even if we both get stabbed, I'll defeat you."
Cow-head Monster: "Finally caught up to you. No need to wait for the main squad's arrival. At last, the survivors of that country will all be crushed."
(end)
Cow-head Monster: "Gufufufufu... Not bad. We'll retreat for now."
Shuuka: "... Wait! Fight me!!"
Shuuka: "Enemies of His Majesty... I'll defeat you, even if it costs me my life!"
Anna: "You're still saying such things!?"
Anna: "If you really want to win, you should do everything necessary without throwing away your life."
Shuuka: "..."
Xiao: "... Shuuka-sama."
(mid-battle)
Cow-head Monster: "Gufufufufu... I'll show you my magic. Now then, shadows! Destroy the enemy."
Soldier: "Report! The cow-headed monster seems to be increasing in numbers."
Anna: "What do you mean by increasing in numbers!?"
Shuuka: "Don't let him confuse you! That's a magic where one multiplies their shadows and has them fight. You won't be able to land any attacks on his shadows."
Shuuka: "However, If you defeat the monster's real body, its shadows will disappear. Concentrate your attacks on the real body before he throws the battlefield into disarray!"
Anna: "I see, Please concentrate your attacks on the real body, everyone!"
Shuuka: "Your cooperation is necessary in order for us to win. Please. Lend me your strength."
(end)
Shuuka: "Prince, I must give you my thanks. It wouldn't have been possible for Xiao and I to defeat him with just our power alone..."
Anna: "Please don't worry about it. We were able to win thanks to your advice."
Shuuka: "My advice...? All I cared about was fighting alone and dying on the battlefield, but I forgot about what's important."
Shuuka: "The strength of an army is unity and cooperating to increase its power many times over. That was the basis of my thoughts. Xiao, my eyes are open now. I'm so sorry."
Xiao: "Shuuka-sama..."
Fierce Battle in the Desert (50/5) (砂漠の激戦 極級):
Christopher (10), Sanosuke (10), Platinum Fairy (40x2), RC V (x2), Bonbori () Story:
Cow-head Monster: "They weren't defeated even with my magic, unbelievable. It looks like I'll have to get serious!"
Anna: "On top of the number of shadows being increased further, the enemy soldiers' strength has also increased. Perhaps this will become an all-out war."
Shuuka: "However, if we can suppress them here, the pursuers will also temporarily fall out of place."
Shuuka: "Everyone, this is the vital moment! Give all you have, and defeat the enemy army!!"
(end)
Anna: "It looks like the enemy have all been defeated."
Shuuka: "However, it's still not the end of the monsters that destroyed our country."
Shuuka: "The monsters who have a much stronger and more fearsome power are being kept there. My battle won't end until I defeat them..."
Xiao: "Shuuka-sama..."
Anna: "Well then, would you like to join forces until we defeat those monsters?"
Shuuka: "... Gladly."
Anna: "Prince, I don't know when the enemy reinforcements will arrive. Let's prepare for battle ahead of time, OK?"
Scoundrels in the Desert (30/2) (砂漠の悪徒):
Harissa (10), Bergen (80x2), Ruby (10), RC III (), Bonbori () Story:
Bandit: "Onward, ya flee-ridden curs! Up ahead is the uninhabited village that was attacked by the monsters!"
Shuuka: "Wait. What do you intend to do at that village?"
Bandit: "Huh, who're ya? The reason we're going to the inhabited village is to pick through the loot, what else?"
Shuuka: "So you're looters? Although you're from another country, I won't overlook those who threaten people's livelihoods."
Anna: "Indeed. I also feel the same way. Do you think we're going to let you get away with that?"
Bandit: "Hah! We won't show ya mercy if ye get in our way! Come on ya curs! Sic 'em!"
Blue Giant (60/5) (青の巨人 極級):
Asar (10), Pales (10), Platinum Fairy (50), Black Fairy (10), RC V (x3) Story:
(beginning)
Anna: "Bad news! A horde of giants are heading this way!"
Shuuka: "The enemy doesn't intend to loosen the hand of its pursuit..."
Shuuka: "However, we now have strong-willed comrades. Let's show them our strength!"
(blue oni appears)
Shuuka: "What's that blue giant that's not holding any weapons? First time I've seen such a thing..."
Shuuka: "There's nothing we can do but be cautious against enemies we haven't seen before. Keep an eye on the movements of the blue giant!"
???: "Gomomomomo!! Yer... the ones who defeated my cute little bro!"
Shuuka: "Little brother? Cute? Who are you talking about? We saw no one matching that description!!"
Xiao: "Shuuka-sama. Could it be the black ox-headed monster we defeated earlier?"
Ox-headed Monster (Big Bro): "I'll never forgive ya! I'll pulverise ya 'til there's nothing left!!"
Shuuka: "Driven by revenge to the point you're unable to see your surroundings, I know it quite well..."
Shuuka: "I want to borrow your strength once more. I want to fight as a lone general that isn't driven by revenge."
(big bro appears)
Ox-headed Monster (Big Bro): "I'll smash ya! I'll crush ya to pieces! I'll avenge my little broOo!!!"
Shuuka: "We should attack the main body, just like his little brother, to make the shadows he creates with his magic vanish!"
(end)
Shuuka: "We won..."
Shuuka: "That monster was the one who was commanding our pursuers. We're safe for the time being."
Shuuka: "I defeated the monsters that destroyed my country, and was even able to overcome my obsession with revenge thanks to you."
Shuuka: "It was fortunate to have met you. You have my gratitude."
Shuuka: "... Thanks."
Xiao: "Shuuka-sama..."
Anna: "Even when her life was driven mad by the monsters, I'm glad we were able to save her like this. Right, Prince...?"
Chaotic Battlefield (100/2) (混沌の戦場 神級):
Gold Fairy (50, 100 first drop), Platinum Fairy (10, 100 first drop), Black Fairy (5, 100 first drop), Complete: Rainbow Fairy Story:
Ox-Headed Monster (Big Bro): "Avenge little bro... never forgive. crush ya... ta pieces...!!"
Ox-headed Monster (Big Bro): "Behold my art that improves my mystical powah to the max! Ya'all will be crushed! Smashed! Dashed!!"
Soldier: "Report! That monster separated its shadows, but we're unable to tell them apart from the real body!"
Anna: "We might be able to tell apart shadow from flesh if we attacked, and then confirmed the results..."
Anna: "In any case, it looks like we have no choice but to search for the real body. We must not let them through! Prince, prepare for battle!"
Mortal Enemy Confrontation (90/12) (仇敵との対決 神級):
RC III (x3), RC V (x3), Bonbori () Story:
Just making sure, if you second AW a unit, the level of the character will be where they left off right? Like if I second AW my lvl51 Liana she will be lvl51?
The only healer I can 2AW is Shidisu, and she has no special art ...
The Oracle's ranger increase seems better to me ...
As said, people have been clearing hard maps without 2AW, I think a boost in atk or def wouldn't change it that much, it would be more efficient for offensive units I guess, while increasing range affect a lot on units positioning and strategy, deployment and team formation, it's +10 radius of a circle area on the healer surroundings, it's not that small ... efficiency ≠ effectiveness.
And status like atk and def is kind of variable, there is a lot of ways to increase it, most healer have skill that boost atk, a lot of units have aw passives that increase it too like Kikyo, Yuno or Fermi, but passive that increase healers range I don't remember any now ...
Well, I guess it depends of the units too, and how you intend to play with them, you can overcome an unit's weakness or increase even more an advantage.
All good and dandy, particularly like that they added some art to it, but cynically observed, until they actually produce some more content in the game that works around it, it is simply stat/ability creep with an extra stretch of grind attached.
Frankly, there aren't a lot of maps where the placement of a healer being able to reach even one unit is going to be dependent on 10 range. And you shouldn't be placing your healers in places that they eat much, if any, damage. And you're relying on a coin flip for it to work anyway.
Oracle just sounds really situational to me. The dozens of levels worth of stats that you get from Hierophant will be beneficial to literally every map. There aren't any maps where you won't benefit from extra stats.
I actually feel like Oracle got the raw end of the deal by not getting any stats at all. Even half of what Hierophant got would have probably made Oracle the go-to for me.
I have to agree. 10 range is not enough to reach a new spot at least 50% of the time. The nullification is cool and quite powerful but real use cases are very limited.
I usually speak in favor of chance skills but always pointing out the need to average the effect over the entire map duration. We don't usually have, nor want a healer being under fire enough time for this skill to make sense.
The only "real" use case being healing a tank against a boss with aoe atk close enough to be hit. (which excludes the fire and lightning majins)
I would change it to 30% nullification and 20 range + 20 atk/def to be on par.
My guess is they didn't want Liana get too much extra range
Anyway this doesn't really apply to non-black healers cuz even Oracle gets extra lvls which should include some stats.
Edit: forgot to mention the fact that, extra range let u deploy the healer farther back, while nullification is for bringing them to the front lines, so, 0 synergy.
These aren't situations that haven't been encountered before.
Like I said, what these arguments are amounting to is a matter of strategy.
Have we been able to clear these maps before Oracle, without their 10 range and 50% personal damage mitigation? Of course we have. And we'll continue to.
And if we can do it now, what's stopping us from doing it more efficiently with stronger units?
These "what-if" scenarios aren't really doing it for me.
EDIT: To clarify this post, too, I'm not saying Oracle doesn't have its uses. What I'm saying is what I said before. I don't think that Oracle's situational usefulness justifies it not getting any stat boost at all. With Oracle, you might have a rare map that needs 10 range (even +15 range rarely makes a difference with Range I), and you might have a map that puts your oracle under heavy fire resulting in nulled damage 50% of the time being useful, but usually you won't have either of those. And in situations where you don't, you gain literally nothing else from choosing Oracle over Hierophant.
My point was and continues to be that Oracle needed some stats instead of no stats so that it can at least be useful over AW1 all of the time instead of rarely. I just think the balancing is bad, especially with how they've chosen to distribute Onyx via rainbow crystals (and thankfully events, though they're not making that easy on people). It's a lot of work for no gain 99.9% of the time.
EDIT2: Ultimately, the discussion only applies to black units, where you get a duplicate anyway, so you can always do both. I think I'd just rather pick Hierophant first since the benefit is global and do Oracle after for more specific and situational uses. Oracle can just never be a high priority for me.
Actually, healers either tend to overheal or simply don't heal fast enough; the raw healing stat is sufficient more than 90% of the time.
the reason why b.iris is best with the oracle route, is because her def buff during skill ONLY applies to units WITHIN HER RANGE. +10 range basically means more units can be within range for her buff. and more often than not 10 range can make the difference between placing your healer 1 slot back so you place a ranged dps 1 slot front to attack earlier.
50% dmg mitigation is better than raw hp because 50% of the time, your healer doesnt have to heal herself from a splash damage which takes attention away from main healing target.
if you think +10 range is nothing, then I suppose you're the type to use dorca rather than alissa (for utility rather than dorca boobs), and i have no comment on that.
for specific healers, such as liana, it might be arguable which is better, but for b.iris, 'only additional range' (not by daverost) is a laughable comment.
