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crowdfunding discussion


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azurezero

azurezero

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

Well first of all thanks for your serious reply. This could have gone worse.
Having spent a majority of my childhood playing the piano and little else, I tend to see things from a certain perspective. First of all, people don't make works of art in order to become rich and famous. Most artist at least don't, since they simply want to make a modest living off it, while being to do what they like and are good at. So yes, there is a time of hardship for all of these aspiring artists, during which they may need help to get by, depending on their situation.

A customer can't be expected to 'invest' money, they can only be expected to pay for what they see. That's fair. However artists still need people to finance them while they are learning. That's why there are competitions, scholarship and whatnot. It's not all black and white, and this is what I was thinking about when I referred to your previous post. Waving money in people's face like 'If you want it, get better, it's as easy as that' makes a mockery out of the situation of every person that wants to make a living doing something that is not primarily income-oriented.

If you don't want to 'buy' (You can't really buy it either if you think about it) what an artist has to offer, don't. But don't be smug about it. After all, people don't get to judge your work publicly.
I'm thinking about my future because i have never experienced as much joy or motivation doing anything else in my life...but in july, i finish university... and this means i need a living wage...thanks to damsel quest, i did manage to make about a 3rd of my annual rent...basically i'm examining my options so i can continue making games... I couldnt stand it if i had to stop...i was really sad when wolfenstahl apparently gave up
 

Obsidious

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

I'm thinking about my future because i have never experienced as much joy or motivation doing anything else in my life...but in july, i finish university... and this means i need a living wage...thanks to damsel quest, i did manage to make about a 3rd of my annual rent...basically i'm examining my options so i can continue making games... I couldnt stand it if i had to stop...i was really sad when wolfenstahl apparently gave up
That's in part what I was referring to. Especially nowadays when there is no need anymore for tapes, CDs or whatever to distribute art, people have become spoiled as fuck. Combine that with an overwhelming competition in just about anything, and you have a bumpy road ahead.
 

CDom

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

As I mentioned in private. I'm afraid because of projects like Bionite Origins, but supportive because of projects like Risk of Rain. Honestly I'd work on your overall skills, gather a team of people you get along well with, and really develop a well rounded gaming experience that focuses on quality and job share with a realistic method of piecing it together and deploying it to the community. This is something best done small at first with a lot of forethought, rather than quickly with little regard for the consequences. Additionally, making a template of the game and outlining what you'd like to do with it so people can get a better idea as to what they'd be funding would be a nice way to go about it. That way everyone has an idea as to what the finished product should look like, and no one is left holding a broken promise.

Also, don't even think about shipping stuff. Questionable Content and Romantically Apocalyptic, to my knowledge, are having some major backlog issues with getting stuff out. They are FAAAAAAAR from the only ones who are expecting to still be shipping out rewards UP TO FIVE YEARS FROM NOW.
 

dufake

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

We already got DLsite to sell our works. The problem is most games are too small to make a hit, so we really need a team project in this case. Otherwise, we see more low quality games out there. We deserve better. I'd like to pay for games like parasite city. In the other way, I don't believe the mess can swallow hardcore stuff, so romance could be a mature approach. A dedicated team can not be avoid.
 

FireoftheMonkey

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

As someone who is a mainstream gamer first and a hentai gamer second I can say this. Crowdfunding is for the nitch games, the things that most of the time the big publishers wont touch. And considering hentai games are there to begin with I'm not sure how one should approach it. I see games come up on Offbeater and I saw the Champion's of Corruption guy do it and make bank, so it's possible but he had a dedicated audience before going there.

So for hentai I think my opinion is going to land squarely in the, it's probably the best way to make your game actually turn a good profit. The downside is you need to have a dedicated audience for your work before they'll throw money at you to make it profitable. Honestly tho I'm an observer looking in, I like game design but I stick to table top games mainly so not really my field.

That being said I like your art, it could use some refinement but it's not really like you need more skill. It's more like photo shop or something, I don't know arting at all so forgive my ignorance. I think better tools would probably help you in the long run, that aside I played the RoR game's you made with RPG maker and they are certainly interesting.

I believe I will close here, I think crowd-funding is probably not the place to be going to get an audience. Admittedly I don't know where you would go to get one but besides that. Honestly the crowd-funding success I see are generally from people with an audience already they are just looking for a means to have them give them money. I don't know, I've crowd-funded a few games and only seen one of them come out thus far so maybe I'm not the guy to ask.

TLDR: I think your a good artist, certainly always improving. your games are fun, not sure if they have the appeal or the crowd behind them to go to crowd funding. Maybe make a couple free games and see about making a name for yourself in the RoR category as I think of the RoR's I've played recently the school girl one you played was probably the most fun I've had with them.
 
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azurezero

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

As someone who is a mainstream gamer first and a hentai gamer second I can say this. Crowdfunding is for the nitch games, the things that most of the time the big publishers wont touch. And considering hentai games are there to begin with I'm not sure how one should approach it. I see games come up on Offbeater and I saw the Champion's of Corruption guy do it and make bank, so it's possible but he had a dedicated audience before going there.

So for hentai I think my opinion is going to land squarely in the, it's probably the best way to make your game actually turn a good profit. The downside is you need to have a dedicated audience for your work before they'll throw money at you to make it profitable. Honestly tho I'm an observer looking in, I like game design but I stick to table top games mainly so not really my field.

That being said I like your art, it could use some refinement but it's not really like you need more skill. It's more like photo shop or something, I don't know arting at all so forgive my ignorance. I think better tools would probably help you in the long run, that aside I played the RoR game's you made with RPG maker and they are certainly interesting.

I believe I will close here, I think crowd-funding is probably not the place to be going to get an audience. Admittedly I don't know where you would go to get one but besides that. Honestly the crowd-funding success I see are generally from people with an audience already they are just looking for a means to have them give them money. I don't know, I've crowd-funded a few games and only seen one of them come out thus far so maybe I'm not the guy to ask.

TLDR: I think your a good artist, certainly always improving. your games are fun, not sure if they have the appeal or the crowd behind them to go to crowd funding. Maybe make a couple free games and see about making a name for yourself in the RoR category as I think of the RoR's I've played recently the school girl one you played was probably the most fun I've had with them.
I think my tools are fine, i can't use photoshop but i love paint tool sai, as for spending months on free games...i can't afford to do that...
 

Obsidious

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

Have you tried asking some of the more established game creators for advice? People like Fenoxo, Kyrieru and I don't know, that basically create games for a living have at one point been in your shoes. Although their personal situation will probably be different from yours, they might just give you some pointers.

I don't think your run of the mill h-games section visitor will have the necessary background to really help you in this matter, although I may be mistaken. Be a little bold and ask as many game creators as your time can afford, it couldn't hurt.
 
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azurezero

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

Have you tried asking some of the more established game creators for advice? People like Fenoxo, Kyrieru and I don't know, that basically create games for a living have at one point been in your shoes. Although their personal situation will probably be different from yours, they might just give you some pointers.

I don't think your run of the mill h-games section visitor will have the necessary background to really help you in this matter, although I may be mistaken. Be a little bold and ask as many game creators as your time can afford, it couldn't hurt.
unfortunately i only have the less successful ones in my skype list, kyrieru doesnt even think my games are good enough to warrant a link on his blog

still, chesshire cat, wolfenstahl, kajio... i do ask them for advice on programming and things when i get stuck
 

Obsidious

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

unfortunately i only have the less successful ones in my skype list, kyrieru doesnt even think my games are good enough to warrant a link on his blog

still, chesshire cat, wolfenstahl, kajio... i do ask them for advice on programming and things when i get stuck
Well you don't have to be friends with them to be able to ask. Just write a mail or something. Like I said, there is no need to be shy. And you have to ask the successful ones especially, of course. You may even want to ask non-h game developers. Seriously, you gotta get off your ass and get the foot in the door yourself. Also your university should have a 'career service' or something, why not try there, too. Or maybe ask a professor of a study course you feel is closest to what you want to do.

This is all just off the top of my head, but there is seriously a ton of people you can turn to for advice. People are not in your skype list? I won't have it.
 
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azurezero

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

Well you don't have to be friends with them to be able to ask. Just write a mail or something. Like I said, there is no need to be shy. And you have to ask the successful ones especially, of course. You may even want to ask non-h game developers. Seriously, you gotta get off your ass and get the foot in the door yourself. Also your university should have a 'career service' or something, why not try there, too. Or maybe ask a professor of a study course you feel is closest to what you want to do.

This is all just off the top of my head, but there is seriously a ton of people you can turn to for advice. People are not in your skype list? I won't have it.
HA university...they were useless... :)


seriously though...if i think of a project that actually needs crowdfunding... i might go for it :)
need to see how magus and yuko turn out first
 
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zarion

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

Well first of all thanks for your serious reply. This could have gone worse.
Having spent a majority of my childhood playing the piano and little else, I tend to see things from a certain perspective. First of all, people don't make works of art in order to become rich and famous. Most artist at least don't, since they simply want to make a modest living off it, while being to do what they like and are good at. So yes, there is a time of hardship for all of these aspiring artists, during which they may need help to get by, depending on their situation.

A customer can't be expected to 'invest' money, they can only be expected to pay for what they see. That's fair. However artists still need people to finance them while they are learning. That's why there are competitions, scholarship and whatnot. It's not all black and white, and this is what I was thinking about when I referred to your previous post. Waving money in people's face like 'If you want it, get better, it's as easy as that' makes a mockery out of the situation of every person that wants to make a living doing something that is not primarily income-oriented.

If you don't want to 'buy' (You can't really buy it either if you think about it) what an artist has to offer, don't. But don't be smug about it. After all, people don't get to judge your work publicly.
There is also such a thing as pixiv, you know.
I believe that the reasons why azurezero still hasn't got a hit yet are because a) he failed to deliver an even remotely finished product once in the past, that's got to hurt his reputation b) his games are in English, the English user base of DLsite is significantly smaller than the Japanese user base and c) his art still isn't up to dlsite standards, though it has improved a lot since Princess Escape.
This is the reason why I told him to come back in a year, it was meant to be taken literally. If he's improved so much since PE imagine where he'll be in a full year.
And in regards to my work, yes people do get to judge it, because if my work isn't done properly then there will be complaints from the affected parties.
Also as a final note, your tentacle rape schtick is getting old, try and get some impregnation and corruption stuff into the mix.
 
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Kyrieru

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

kyrieru doesnt even think my games are good enough to warrant a link on his blog.
Here's the thing,

You're approaching this with the wrong mindset. You're fixating too much on doing it for a living, when you should be asking yourself if you're actually even ready for that. The question shouldn't be "how can I make money", it should be "how can I make my games good enough to sell".

I started using GM when I was around 15. By the time I was 17, I had worked on countless games as a hobby, some taking months, some only a week or so. But every time I would start over without finishing, because I was constantly improving and so were my standards for myself. The thought of selling something I wasn't satisfied with never crossed my mind.

When I was 19, I took a job in home-based customer service for over a year. It was during that time that I began to work on H games more in my free time. Sure, the job wasn't game development, but having a day-job gave me the time to safely try, and fail, and try again at making a good game with the skills I had built up till then. And yes, that was the goal, making a good game. I figured it'd be free. Around the time I was finishing Kurovadis, someone told me about DLsite, and I happened to get laid off soon after. That was when I put it up for sale, and ended up making enough money to make another game.

What's the point of that story? Money was never the driving force. I wanted to make good games. The idea of making games for a living was a far off goal I aspired to, not something I though I was entitled to by merit of effort. The time I spent making games to improve and create something I could be proud of was what made making a living out of it possible.

So what does this have to do with you. Why don't I link to your blog? It's because I hold you to the same standards that I'd hold myself to if I were you. Your games are terrible. Half the mechanics either barely work or are entirely broken, and I don't enjoy them at all. I'd never release something in that state. Sounds harsh, right? Well, I'd say that about my old games, too, and that's exactly why I never released a lot of my older work, let alone tried to sell it. They didn't meet my standards then, and they certainly wouldn't now.

But you are not your games, and I am not mine. You, like every developer, have the potential to create great games. Don't hold yourself in high regard and assume your effort is worth money. Because it isn't. The value in your time and effort is what you will become. You have improved, and you will continue to do so. So imagine your games in 2 years, and how much better they'll be, imagine you have achieved what you were striving towards. At that point, would you release the games your making now? Would they be an acceptable level of quality? I doubt it.

This entire post is turning into a big repetitive rant, but my point is that you need self awareness. You need to stop and consider if your games are really worth selling or not, not how you can make more money. You need to consider whether the way to go is a bunch of short, rushed, mediocre games in an attempt to make a living, or getting a day job for a while, and focusing on making the best games you can, so that when you do make a living by making games, it's with games you can be proud of, even two years from now.


And yes, feel free to add me on skype. Again, it's your games I have a problem with, not you, and your games will improve over time. It took me years to improve, but that's because I learned on my own. Learning is easier when you're learning what you need to learn, when you need to learn it, and I'm more than willing to teach you some stuff as long as you're willing to learn.

Also, my skype is just the contact info on my blog, so it was always just available to anyone -__-
 

FruitSmoothie

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

You can learn things even from the "Less successful ones". Some people aren't successful for various reasons, they may be lacking in something that you already have a decent understanding of, but they may be more advanced than you in other fields. One of the most important things is understanding business and marketing, which is what I see most artists lack.

The few extremely "successful" (profit and audience size wise) artists I know are so because they understand how to "sell" their work to as many people as possible. I frequented a stream of a pretty well known artist who was really great at this and took notes from him whenever he'd talk about how to run an art business, it was really helpful. I mean even just changes in your pen/artist name and having a certain attitude towards your art and people online and your fans will do you wonders.

Here's the thing...
Heh. Good post. This is why I'm scared of game developing...I think I'll just focus on art for now. At least I know I can make some money off art commissions and maybe even freelance work with enough practice. Game developing is rough.
 
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Dycraxis

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

Crowdfunding, as pretty as it may sound is a guillotine most of the time.

Consider what Kyrieru and some others have said before, are you capable of surpassing your own standards? If you can't then what about reaching the expectatives of those that paid you for that work?

I'll be honest, Offbeatr, DLsite, etc. They're all full of crap games and projects that sell and you don't know how. The reason for why many successful developers made it to their place is just as Kyrieru said, professionalism, self-improvement, that's the difference between the crap of those sites and good works. Half of the people that make it big aren't interested in money, they just want to improve, make good works.

When you as the developer have high standards and wish for yourself to make something great you can give to the people what they want, the feeling that if they paid you to make something you will do it, but more importantly than that, that you will do it right.

My reccomendation? Aim to surpass yourself until University ends, make this last game something that will surpass the others you've made and get used to seeing every game you make as a target to defeat. This is what I do when making games and art.
 
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azurezero

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

I am proud of every single one of my games except erojanken...because rock paper scissors is barely a game.
 

Obsidious

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

I am proud of every single one of my games except erojanken...because rock paper scissors is barely a game.
Kyrieru does have a point though. I have made similar experiences during my piano lessons, after the transition from my previous teacher to a very strict Russian music professor. What Kyrieru said about self awareness is probably one of the most important things you have to learn and constantly develop further for the rest of your life, when it comes to any kind of creative work.
You may have invested lots of effort and time into a project, which may result in your pride blinding you. You may not notice it actually looks or sounds like shit (hypothetically speaking, I haven't played all of your games) until somebody unrelated tells you about it.

I had to learn to let go of certain ideas I held onto for the sole reason of having come up with them on my own. That was in no way easy. Ever.
However unlike certain skills, personal taste can't be taught and must be developed over a very long timespan. For that to happen though, it is necessary to make mistakes, i.e. create stuff and discard it, trial & error basically. There is no shortcut I think. Even if someone more experienced taught you how to do this and that, it won't be as useful to you if you don't know why not to do all the possible alternatives.

So set your pride aside and show some humility. There's already enough arrogance and false entitlement in this world
 

FruitSmoothie

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

You may have invested lots of effort and time into a project, which may result in your pride blinding you. You may not notice it actually looks or sounds like shit (hypothetically speaking, I haven't played all of your games) until somebody unrelated tells you about it.

So set your pride aside and show some humility. There's already enough arrogance and false entitlement in this world
One thing I've learned and try to remember is: You can't help someone if they don't want help :p Some people aren't good at taking advice. Being able to take advice from others is like a skill of its own. A very helpful skill that can save you a lot of wasted time...
 

Obsidious

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

One thing I've learned and try to remember is: You can't help someone if they don't want help :p Some people aren't good at taking advice. Being able to take advice from others is like a skill of its own. A very helpful skill that can save you a lot of wasted time...
Exactly. That counts for many things in life. Thinking back to situations where I had to work in a team, I often had a hard time to accept other people's ideas simply because of the fact they weren't my own. What you have worked for yourself feels naturally more 'right' than what is presented to you on a silver platter. But it doesn't necessarily need to be.
 
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azurezero

azurezero

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

Exactly. That counts for many things in life. Thinking back to situations where I had to work in a team, I often had a hard time to accept other people's ideas simply because of the fact they weren't my own. What you have worked for yourself feels naturally more 'right' than what is presented to you on a silver platter. But it doesn't necessarily need to be.
I'm getting kyries advice on magus now, he has a lot to say :)
 

igotnostuffs

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Re: crowdfunding discussion

I also want to make such games, not because of money though but because I want to satisfy my curiosities and ideas. Every time I walk outside, I randomly would thought 'I could make a game out of this' and then think up all the possible mechanics, art and plot. Then when I come back home I just sit at my chair and thought to myself 'Where should I start' for 2 hours then gave up my idea.

Sorry for my rant.
Anyway, I'll just say its hard to make a living out of indie games, think of it as a hobby first. Why not make games because you want to, people tend to improve very much if they like what they are doing. Then you would realize later while making another game 'Hey! I could make money out of this very high quality game!'. Still there are a lot of high quality free games everywhere. Like in this . Well, the only thing I can see from DLsite that seems to sell is hentai even if the gameplay is crappy like hell. Man is so foolish to pay for porn when girls are everywhere. *buys another game from dlsite*

Anyway, sorry for my rant again.
 
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