Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

[goduranus]

Man, I was really hoping someone would make a hentai Mass Effect with alien tentacles or hentai Doom with horrific demonic tentacle creatures, but animation problems with Mass Effect Andromeda really shows why a good 3D game is so hard. Lots of those technologies look like they take a lot of budget, and even then they get a lot of things wrong.

This youtube video about making ME Andromeda really sums it up.

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[hentairobotfromthefuture]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

hentai Doom

hdoomguy.tumblr.com

But seriously, I don't think you'll see any real sprawling 3D H games due to the relatively small market and the large budgets required. Maybe that monster girl island game will come out some day. Who knows.

I've given some thought to making 3D H games cheaply, and the best thing I can come up with is a style similar to the old FMV games on the Sega CD. String together a bunch of SFM scenes with basic gameplay elements or something.

 

[TitanAnteus]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

Good 3D hentai is hard not because of animation completely.

It's mostly 3D modeling, lack of programming ability and market size.

Japan has tons of really awesome adult animators that don't make the transition into making a successful 3D game.

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' videos are normally really high quality, but their forray into 3D games came across issues.

First things first, the actual quality of the image was pretty low. Most japanese users don't have strong PCs. The PC market is miniscule over there. More people prefer to game on handhelds and the ones that game on PC do it so rarely that a high-end PC isn't worth it. Do you see how this diminishes the market size for 3D products? This means that Polymation had to really go to that lowest common denominator in order for their game to run well. They didn't have the programming ability to use shaders to their advantage and the final product didn't look the best. I still absolutely love the VN though.

On the other hand...

The devs

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got past this by having almost no environments, generally low poly characters and focusing most of their visual flair out in the shaders. Turn those shaders off and the game actually looks pretty bad. Shaders are postprocessing btw. It's calculations done on the screen after all the 3D stuff is drawn so it's generally fast.

3D animation among indie devs isn't the problem when it comes to the sex department. It's not a joke to say that SFM animators have the ability to make those animations in game engines nowadays. In fact, animators like

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animation process directly lends itself to being ported to a game engine.

Of course you won't get advanced facial animation or any of that jazz that makes a game AAA but the game would certainly be high quality at the touch of animators like him.

The problems with making a "game" though are the general all purpose animations.

If you watch an

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video you'll notice that even he has trouble with walking animations and that kind of general stuff. Stuff we find kind of standard in video games. Anything that needs movement from the whole body is generally pretty tough to get right, and so that's a barrier to entry for a lot of 3D developers.

Mass Effect Andromeda's failure doesn't really directly lend well to a comparison of the failures of 3D H-games. 3D H-games don't really need all that much mo-cap, and the animators in Japan have the ability to create those kinds of animations anyway. Indie animators have been doing it to make videos for FOREVER now.

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is like what? 2 people. The problem is that while people can animate, it's hard to make good 3D models from scratch, the market's a subportion of the already tiny adult market, and the programming barrier is pretty high to actually make things look pretty on generally weak machines.

 

[milkysofts]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

Illusion make really good progress in the past, before they change the game style. I like desblood4 so much.

From the video, they say the animation seem hard to make anyways the H animation seem to got one advantage over the normal animation.... It's loopable. XP

I still didn't try 3d myself yet, so I can't say much anyways.

 

[AceofWind]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

Depends on how you define "good" in this context, if you mean a 3D AAA porn game with lots of story and voice acted animated scenes, I doubt anyone wants to go the extra mile into making such a thing.

I would say that time and effort (and the lack thereof) played a bigger part in Andromeda's flaws than the difficulty of making it did when you consider the fact that Bioware has about 800 employees at their disposal and they've been releasing patches to address these issues.

 

[dood]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

Mass effect andromeda failed for a lot of reasons. Including blatant mismanagement and the ostracising of talented people over politics.

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"did not see facial animations as a priority for the game"

Bioware has over the last decade been sliding further and further into blatant nepotism and cronyism. The fact that they sent the least experienced, completely unqualified montreal division for such a title should indicate that clearly.

Now back to 3D hentai. I actually don't find any problems with 3D hentai. That last game by miconisomi was really fucking good. Also even several years back, teatime was making a lot of great content with love death final being their best work (Rest in peace teatime ).

The three big issues (and other posters have mentioned this)
1. Cost to benefit ratio: There's not enough reason to focus on animation when people are more than willing to pay for 2D CG instead. There's a lot of RPGmaker hentai games not because they're easy to make but because they're also easily profitable

2. Audience and dedication: You need good hardware to run good 3D porn. Alternatively you could make a 3D porn movie but again your movie will take up a lot of space. I'm not sure about over seas but here, sex negativism still rules the streets. Very few people want to take risks of getting good hardware just to run porn, most of us get the hardware to run good games first and then porn second . Also Japan prefers phones over computers to the point that japan is undergoing a computer science crisis as people there don't really know how to use computers anymore (is that irony or ?).

3. Length, fetish and marketing: A good 3D hentai is obviously going to be of the right length (roughly 30 minutes to one hour, more than that if its a game), have the appropriate audience fetish which is difficult because there's so much that can go wrong here.

Take for example @OZ's recent works. Some people love the tentacle scenes others hate them. I was really frustrated when they took their recent megumin parody and turned the tentacles into hands. Some people like guro or tough rape elements others hate them. There's no pleasing everyone. Combine this with the cost to benefit ratio and you'll see why devs aren't too keen on spending excessive time and money on 3D hentai

And of course marketing. Yeah its gonna be really hard to market your big 3D hentai product. Sad really .

 

[Yugifan3]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

Well, there is always Palmers Play with Us game.

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Unless there is a particular style of 3D you are after.
Here is some 3D hentai you can check out, sure not a GAME, but still.

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And there is Bedtas 3D section you can check out.

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[TitanAnteus]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

Well, there is always Palmers Play with Us game.

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Unless there is a particular style of 3D you are after.
Here is some 3D hentai you can check out, sure not a GAME, but still.

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And there is Bedtas 3D section you can check out.

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Outside of Palmer's game all of the rest are videos. Palmer's game is also just a collection of videos placed into a game format.

 

[Enlit3D]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

I am going to only refer to 3D-games as opposed to 3D-movies or pre-rendered 3D images.

Shaders are postprocessing btw. It's calculations done on the screen after all the 3D stuff is drawn so it's generally fast.

Incorrect. Shader is any calculation done on the GPU. Can be post-processing like you said but can also not be, like lighting calculations or deformations.

You need good hardware to run good 3D porn.

That depends. Heroine Rumble can be run at very playable speeds ~30 FPS on integrated graphics cards. I heard MGI is similiarily playable on low/none graphics card PCs. This has more to to do with the technical expertise of the developer.

Most japanese users don't have strong PCs. The PC market is miniscule over there.

I dont really see this as a obstacle because Patreon exists for western devs. You might hate Patreon, and that is totally understandable. But the reality of the fact is that Patreon takes only a ~10% cut versus ~50% cut for dlsite and it is by far the best choice available to western H-devs. Not say that its great or anything, just that there is severely lack of other options.

Furthermore, there is a strong correlation between Patronage and computer hardware and you can generally expect your supporters have a fair strong PC. It something that I didnt account for and perhaps spent too much effort catering to the lowest common denominator.

 

[TitanAnteus]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

Incorrect. Shader is any calculation done on the GPU. Can be post-processing like you said but can also not be, like lighting calculations or deformations.
....
Furthermore, there is a strong correlation between Patronage and computer hardware and you can generally expect your supporters have a fair strong PC. It something that I didnt account for and perhaps spent too much effort catering to the lowest common denominator.

Regarding the Shader thing, I didn't know that. I know that lighting calculations and all that stuff can be done through shaders but that's because the game's actually giving that information to the Shader for it to make the color modifications and all that.

Shaders always run last after the main render and are therefore technically post processing.

I never mentioned Patronage. I didn't even consider it, when it came to the creation of high quality finished 3D games as one hasn't been made yet. I was talking in the sense of create a 3D project->sell it->Sales=profit mindset.

With platforms like Patron, what it does is make the niche of 3D h-games within the niche of eroge possible due to fan-support in the creation process. It doesn't change the fact that quite a few eroge enthusiasts do not have strong enough PCs to run high render target eroge. Especially in Japan, where games like Yumina the Ethereal "graphical demand" was something the community complained about at times.

 

[Enlit3D]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

Regarding the Shader thing, I didn't know that. I know that lighting calculations and all that stuff can be done through shaders but that's because the game's actually giving that information to the Shader for it to make the color modifications and all that.

Shaders always run last after the main render and are therefore technically post processing.

The main rendering you are talking about is done via shaders. A shader is just a specialized piece of code running on the GPU. Nothing more, nothing less. What you are thinking is the fixed function pipeline and that is depreciated for like ~10 years already.

Yes Japan may have weaker PCs but I am saying you may not have to pay that much attention to Japan as a western dev. Go to

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and search for "About Pricing". For a game that lists for 1000 JPY you only get 450 JPY. That is just awful.

 

[Yugifan3]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

Outside of Palmer's game all of the rest are videos. Palmer's game is also just a collection of videos placed into a game format.

Well, did say they was not games.
But , aight I can link some that are 3D that i like kinda count as games.

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This any better?

 

[kittenmittens]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

It's mostly the fact that animation is expensive and difficult and time consuming, so good animators are worth a lot to both the videogame and film industry. If you're actually a qualified animator you have to ask yourself whether you're really so passionate about porn that you want to take significantly less money to make h-games as opposed to working for a triple A game dev or film studio.

If h-games became less of a niche market it would be different. There are a lot more high quality 3D h-animations that aren't games because that's a much more lucrative market.

 

[TitanAnteus]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

Well, did say they was not games.
But , aight I can link some that are 3D that i like kinda count as games.

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This any better?

One of those is a game with ingame 3d-graphics. That's the game made by REAL. It's quality is pretty low. The rest are prerendered 3D movies being played back and one of them is just straight up 2D.

Btw, I'm not coming at you. I'm just saying that the list doesn't really pertain to the conversation so please don't take offense.

It's mostly the fact that animation is expensive and difficult and time consuming, so good animators are worth a lot to both the videogame and film industry. If you're actually a qualified animator you have to ask yourself whether you're really so passionate about porn that you want to take significantly less money to make h-games as opposed to working for a triple A game dev or film studio.

If h-games became less of a niche market it would be different. There are a lot more high quality 3D h-animations that aren't games because that's a much more lucrative market.

You know... I'd be inclined to agree with you if extremely High Quality 3DCG movies weren't being constantly released. The talent and desire is there. There's just stuff limiting them from translating that into the gamespace.

 

[Kyrieru]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

I don't think that 3d will be difficult outside of the initial learning curve (especially programming). So long as the style of a game is practical, modeling characters and environments isn't too taxing.

However, while it isn't "hard", it does take longer, since so much of it is just the same as making 2d games but with more steps. There would be a sweetspot with some games were the benifit of re-using models for animations would save you time, however that's very content specific. In most cases 3d porn games are going to take longer than their 2d equivalents.

 

[kiko]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

With the Unity3D and even UE3/4 around, there will eventually be a decent fully featured hentai game, it's just a matter of time. I personally do not prefer 3D hentai/porn but it's always nice to see something new. To be honest I'd much more like to see an unfinished 3D hentai game than some low effort RPGMaker games that use stock sprites and sounds and absolutely everything, the only thing different is the CGs and such. There is one game made in UE4 and it looks really fucking good, even though it's still in alpha stages.

 

[habisain]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

It would be remiss not to point out the Souls-like Succubus Heaven, would it not?

In general though, my suspicion is that there's two issues with 3D-hentai. The first is that many people in Japan are using fairly weak PCs and would not be able to handle 3D games. I'm not sure how much truth there is in this these days, as for the past few generations even Intel's integrated graphics have been more than adequate for most things that indie devs can throw at them. Regardless, Japanese devs are unlikely to limit their primary audience.

The second is skillsets. I'm not meaning to be disparaging here, but static CG games are the most plentiful because they have the lowest skillset: they simply require the ability to draw, and potentially some limited programming (normally offset by using something like RPGMaker). Whenever there is an increase in the skills required, we will see fewer games. So we don't see much in the way of 3D hentai, but we also don't see as much in the way of animated RPG games, or 2D platformers - because all of these add to the skillset required to make them, which means fewer people are available to make them.

 

[goduranus]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

Ah, the old Illusion games, Des Blood and AGA wish there were more games like those.

Definitely keeping an eye on Succubus Heaven.

 

[Drix]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

Performance for 3D hentai is a non issue.

Just look at old Skyrim with sex mods. As long as you have a decently optimized engine and don't go insane with the physics on boobs and hair you would be fine.

Most of the problems with sex scenes is things aren't aligning properly which would be a non issue if you had some IK with targets.

Only things like vagina deformation is hard but not impossible.

The problem with the 3D patreon hentai scene is they use cheap DAZ models that look butt ugly. In other words talentless hacks that can't even edit some damn models.
MILFs are completely overrated and not in the sensibilities of Japanese style hentai aficionados. I don't want to fuck my mother, I want to fuck my cute imoto.

Also "Extra Frames" are hacks that don't give you anything other then platitudes. Mass Effect's problems

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.

 

[i3oi3o]

Re: Discussion - Now I know why good 3D hentai isn't happening soon.

Incorrect. Shader is any calculation done on the GPU. Can be post-processing like you said but can also not be, like lighting calculations or deformations.

Just FYI.

Currently on Shader Model 5.0, DirectX11 and OpenGL 4.0, There is hull/tessellation/domain stage which you can do deformation. There is technique which encode animation in texture and feed it to vertex stage.

You can calculate lighting in shader. it's just passing parameter.
Current limitation is the only technique to calculate global illumination is voxel ray tracing. Currently only The Tomorrow Children on PS4 implement this technique.

Current real-time global illumination combine CPU and GPU using baked patch graph to determine which object influence other. Render the scene without global illumination and let CPU transfer lighting calculation between object.