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DTT: game on!


ToxicShock

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Re: DTT: game on!

Well, the problem (?) with claiming that you're a gifted girl is you make yourself a target. If you *are* the gifted girl, unless the protector is still alive, the demon is going to go for you, to keep from getting detected. If you're the demon, the gifted girl is going to look at you first, because they *know* you're not the gifted girl.

A decent strategy is, if the protector is still alive, for the GG and protector to team up. Then the demon has to waste turns trying to take out the protector *first* in order to protect themselves from the GG's scan. The only problem is, if you've declared yourself the GG and the protector goes, next night, you're screwed. Literally.

The game is as much luck as it is strategy, really. And sometimes the demon gets lucky and sometimes the humans do. And sometimes you have huge clusterfuck games where things either go really right or really wrong, depending on how you look at it.
I think I trusted copper the most because she has tits.
 

Hentaispider

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Re: DTT: game on!

The thing gifted girl should do, is tell whoever she scans and turns out not to be a demon that she's the gifted girl.
 

BlueSlime

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Re: DTT: game on!

Change that to "I don't like Plans", and you've got my reasoning.
Mental habits - I have an extreme dislike for making false statements, so I don't like claiming anything if I have to. Admittedly that's more for the occasions that I'm the demon... but it still affects my play as other roles.

If I had been planning to claim, I would've done it the first time someone voted for lynching me - the whole "you'll regret this" bit was more for Toxic. We'd chatted a bit over PMs, after I scanned him, and he'd said he suspected Siphon more than anyone else, buuut then he changed his vote one last time, and sacrificed me. :(

Edit: And also the bit about Tenta not being able to "counter" me... A) he could, and B) he didn't need to. The demon (in this game, at least) automatically knows that everyone else is "not a demon". The gifted girl's scans only reveal that their target is "not a demon". The demon is therefore able to fake being a gifted girl, simply by saying "Oh, I scanned A and B, and they're both not demons - still working on who is" - and she'll be right, too. As to the "didn't need to"... well, Tenta wasn't being voted for - it was Toxic versus Siphon, then Siphon versus me.
There are a few things you've just said that don't seem to make sense to me, but first:

***********
Whoa...

You're allowed to talk in PM's? Holy hell... I didn't realize that. I thought everything that happened had to be public. When I've played Mafia online, the ability to talk outside of the thread has always been a special power of some sort.

That changes a lot of what was going on in my mind.
******

Okay back to what you were saying, there's only one demon - one bad guy. No one backing him up. We lynch him, we win. If you claim GG, and he claims GG, then we know the demon is one of you two. It wasn't a must lynch situation when you were lynched - so if you claimed and everyone unvoted to see if there was another claim (Like every well meaning villager should do...) then it would quickly become apparent that you HAD to be the GG.

I understand the demon "knows everyone else is good" but that's not the point. If he claims along with you when it's not a choice among the final three people, then he's dooming himself. If we lynch you and the game doesn't end, then we lynch him the next day and the game will end in a victory for good. If he doesn't counter claim, then you're proven to be what you say you are by virtue of no one else saying that you aren't.

You do understand what I'm saying there, I hope... the GG shouldn't survive most games. It's a sacrificial role. Find out who the bad guy is, force them to counter you, maybe get killed, maybe not, but in the end, the good guys win and pat themselves on the back for a job well handled.

As for being opposed to plans in general -- I think that's a very poor position to take if you want to win the game as a villager/innocent/normal girl. Plans are what win these games. Doubt and uncertainty are the tools of the demon. Anything that brings clarity is of use to the village.

I will say that an all-reveal plan is a big ask however -- but what I was saying then still holds water. We could have really put the pressure on Tenta if we'd followed through with it.
 

ToxicShock

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Re: DTT: game on!

I haven't thought out the math on this, but at the beginning, there are 5 normal girls. If the protector reveals their self, they are practically a sacrificial role too, and if not, then there are 6 normal girl claims. And if the demon is smart, that makes 7 normal girl claims. And the GG can get off 3 scans at most before they die. 1 the first night, 2nd night after their claim if they're protected, 3rd night in which they die and don't get to reveal their answer to anyone anyway. In this, assuming the good side was lucky enough to have this plan from the beginning, and the GG revealed both their scans, and neither of them were hit or lynched, there's only 2 known safe girls, right?
 

BlueSlime

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Re: DTT: game on!

I haven't thought out the math on this, but at the beginning, there are 5 normal girls. If the protector reveals their self, they are practically a sacrificial role too, and if not, then there are 6 normal girl claims. And if the demon is smart, that makes 7 normal girl claims. And the GG can get off 3 scans at most before they die. 1 the first night, 2nd night after their claim if they're protected, 3rd night in which they die and don't get to reveal their answer to anyone anyway. In this, assuming the good side was lucky enough to have this plan from the beginning, and the GG revealed both their scans, and neither of them were hit or lynched, there's only 2 known safe girls, right?
Not sure that I follow, but the Protector can effectively clear themselves as well by claiming - meaning that with the Protector and GG claimed and presumedly uncountered, it will also allow for at least 3 scans on a narrowed group.

It's not a mathematical certainty that good would win, but the chances are HIGHLY in good's favor.
 

ToxicShock

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Re: DTT: game on!

Night 1 is an automatic scan and both roles are revealed. At this point, the demon knows that the GG is most important, but because of the protector, the second night will be an automatic scan as well, so the demon gets rid of the protector instead while she still can.

Now there are 2 scans on the table and a lynch from the first day. If they're lucky and the first scan wasn't the first kill, like it was in this game. They now know who the gg is, and who 2 safe girls are. The GG dies that night. I only see 2 scans with the best of luck.
 

BlueSlime

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Re: DTT: game on!

Night 1 is an automatic scan and both roles are revealed. At this point, the demon knows that the GG is most important, but because of the protector, the second night will be an automatic scan as well, so the demon gets rid of the protector instead while she still can.

Now there are 2 scans on the table and a lynch from the first day. If they're lucky and the first scan wasn't the first kill, like it was in this game. They now know who the gg is, and who 2 safe girls are. The GG dies that night. I only see 2 scans with the best of luck.
Ah, but I was forgetting an important bit - I didn't call for the GG and for the Protector to claim their *actual* roles - just that they claim to be a "good special." That way, the Demon doesn't know which of the two is the Protector, and which of the two is the GG - BUT the GG and the Protector of course will know what the other claimer is.

It gives a 50-50 chance that the Demon will hit the GG when she's being protected by the Protector. And since according to the rules, the protector can protect anyone aside from herself twice in a row, it would mean that the GG gets 3 scans 50% of the time.

I freely admit that it wasn't a mathematical lock in, but it give a lot of chances to find the demon and really cuts down on the Demon being able to sow doubt.
 

Copper

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Re: DTT: game on!

The thing about talking in PMs is that, sure, the gifted girl can go to someone that they know is safe and say "Hey, I'm the gifted girl! I know you're not the demon. I think..." But the thing is, the demon *knows* all the other players aren't the demon, so they can do the exact same thing. Especially since the scan doesn't reveal if someone's special. Just that they're not the demon. About the only way they'd fuck up is if they PMed the gifted girl...

Personally, I don't like the idea of being able to talk in IMs, but that's just me. Unless you're the demons and you're not playing a "blind" game and you want to coordinate your attacks.

Also, Toxic, it's cute when you're so very trusting...
 

BlueSlime

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Re: DTT: game on!

The thing about talking in PMs is that, sure, the gifted girl can go to someone that they know is safe and say "Hey, I'm the gifted girl! I know you're not the demon. I think..." But the thing is, the demon *knows* all the other players aren't the demon, so they can do the exact same thing. Especially since the scan doesn't reveal if someone's special. Just that they're not the demon. About the only way they'd fuck up is if they PMed the gifted girl...

Personally, I don't like the idea of being able to talk in IMs, but that's just me. Unless you're the demons and you're not playing a "blind" game and you want to coordinate your attacks.

Also, Toxic, it's cute when you're so very trusting...
In larger games, talking in IMs is borderline gamebreaking. Very tough on the badguys if the GG creates a safe-list that isn't public. The Demon also can't realistically get away with claiming to be GG either - eventually he is obligated to kill the GG, and since roles are revealed publicly on death, whoever he went ahead and claimed to be the GG to will know that he was lying.
 

ToxicShock

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Re: DTT: game on!

Ah, but I was forgetting an important bit - I didn't call for the GG and for the Protector to claim their *actual* roles - just that they claim to be a "good special." That way, the Demon doesn't know which of the two is the Protector, and which of the two is the GG - BUT the GG and the Protector of course will know what the other claimer is.

It gives a 50-50 chance that the Demon will hit the GG when she's being protected by the Protector. And since according to the rules, the protector can protect anyone aside from herself twice in a row, it would mean that the GG gets 3 scans 50% of the time.

I freely admit that it wasn't a mathematical lock in, but it give a lot of chances to find the demon and really cuts down on the Demon being able to sow doubt.
No it's not, it's still 2. I even gave you that extra night by killing the protector first instead of the gg.

Watch it, first night scan, the protector obviously protects herself. The next day, both claim themselves as special. Night 2, protector protects the gg as the other special, the demon attacks the gg, nothing happens, scan # 2. Next day 2 people can be revealed as safe, not 3. The next night, gg can scan but it will never see the light of day as she dies. The only real difference between scenarios is now that they claim special instead of specific roles, the protector would live one more night.

I'm not saying it's a greater chance, I was just asking that only 2 girls are scanned.
 

BlueSlime

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Re: DTT: game on!

According to the rules as I read them, the only person the protector can't protect twice in a row was herself. So presumably the protector would protect the GG on the third night as well.
 

ToxicShock

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Re: DTT: game on!

According to the rules as I read them, the only person the protector can't protect twice in a row was herself. So presumably the protector would protect the GG on the third night as well.
Ah, that is my misunderstanding. So in the best case scenario that no one of the scanned girls is killed and none of the special girls are killed and the demon picks the wrong special girl on the first night, the gifted girl may get 3 scans. Maybe more if the demon mistakenly switches or if the protector decides to keep protecting the gg.
 

BlueSlime

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Re: DTT: game on!

Ah, that is my misunderstanding. So in the best case scenario that no one of the scanned girls is killed and none of the special girls are killed and the demon picks the wrong special girl on the first night, the gifted girl may get 3 scans. Maybe more if the demon mistakenly switches or if the protector decides to keep protecting the gg.
The demon isn't going to be killing the scanned girls (aside from the first night because the claim hasn't been made yet.), because he's too busy targeting the GG and protector. So the girl being scanned will never be the target of the NK - because the demon can't risk eliminating possible hiding places.

If the demon picks the wrong special girl on the night after the reveal, then the GG will be guaranteed 3 scans, only one of which (the first one) can have been killed already by the demon.

Even getting two scans with the added bonus of already knowing the protector is a big advantage.

The point is not to look at the best case scenario, but at a plan's worst case scenario - and as I said, the worst case scenario was having the final day consisting of 2 normals vs 1 demon (which is what ended up happening anyway). Anything better and good would have won - and we would have had a lot of chances.

Not only that, but plans have a tendency to fluster the demon as the noose tightens. If the goods talk a lot during the day instead of racing to lynch somebody, there's more of a chance to get a better read on the demon player.
 
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