General H-game design discussion

[Throngled Dongle]

I saw the topic pop up a few times in threads dedicated to specific games. Wanted to get in on it but didn't want to derail the thread either. So out of respect to who knows how many very specific threads - generic discussion thread here!


Generally whenever the topic comes up the same point about h-games being "illogical" or "poorly designed" because you need to lose to see the content (as far as RoR, GoR, and BF are concerned) is brought up. Then there are the usual counter-arguments that its really up to the target audience whether they like it or not, etc. etc.

I would like to attempt to put forward some personal observations about the way I've seen these debates go and possible directions to consider encouraging these types of games to go in to address the underlying complaint.

1: While VR would make more sense, not everyone wants to be dominant. This introduces the RoR and GoR fields, and BF which is a bit more flexible overall. Keep in mind, some of the male protagonist GoR games are pretty popular too so this isn't just picking on girls. A lot of guys do like being on the receiving end of GoR or losing BF.

2: The rape on losing DOES agreed introduce a conflict in purpose to the traditional game. The desireable content becomes the content for losing and winning generally holds meaning only it access to more varied content, or a traditional ending which may or may not actually be considered "better" than failing.

3: However, the counter-argument that this is just a unique quirk to the sub-variety holds true. It would make even less sense for a succubus in a BF game to only 'dominate and feed' on her partner if he manages to 'beat' her first.

4: 2 and 3 being said, I don't think the complaint is necessarily the real problem. When I see these discussions unfold, I think I see undertones that the #2 argument is less "It's an illogical mix that doesn't work out," and more "I wasn't happy with the implementation and the way the game content and h-content competed with one another."

Therefore, perhaps there are things that can be done to craft a better h-game with the h-content for "losing". It would probably help people in general to think of the current state of these games as "experimenting" to find formula that aren't just acceptable but -really- fun.

Since the losing content competes with the victory content, many people have recommended making the losing content the main goal by having games with no "victory" point. Endless survival type scenarios are a popular mode for many types of games - as well as the entire genre of roguelikes (not my unique idea - people a lot better at this than I recommended roguelikes for very specific reasons). Well, why not? If this unique genre presents content desirable enough to serve as a "reward" than focus on the journey instead. Unlockable galleries are nice, but they're not as fun as losing in a long, slow, drawn out way because the downhill struggle serves as foreplay. Perhaps the idea of "winning makes losing later more fun" should be considered in place of "winning to access additional content" and "winning to skip scenes you don't like".

As for the roguelikes - I hate the genre normally but for h-games I think the idea has solid merit. They were nominated because as I've heard others say about them they are session-based and you are generally not-expected to "win" any one given session. Aren't most h-games generally played in "sessions" anyway irregardless of their design? Also, can't procedurally generated content be altered to present more diverse content in unpredictable and surprising ways? If the content is spread out more horizontally you won't have to go as "deep" through extended play or careful management of saves/teleports to end up in preferred scenarios.

Now not every game has to be a roguelike - maybe some of the features can be transferred to other genres as hybrids: session-orientated, intentionally super-difficult or unwinnable, with perhaps different methods of laying out the content to make it easier to get to without having to resort to New Game + galleries and level select functions.

 

[OnyxShadow]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I like the idea of a real discussion on the facets of H-gaming.

The notion of a roguelike H-game is interesting. I do like quite a few mainstream games in that genre. Its just hard for me to imagine such a thing as an H-game because it seems like it just hasn't even been tried for some reason.

Also, I don't think there is really any right or wrong style of H-game. I've enjoyed several examples of most of the styles you mentioned. Variety is nice. Even though I like RoR, I wouldn't want all H-games to be just that.

BF is what seems to really do it for me. I prefer my H-games to have a lot of interactivity. Also, my preference is that both the protagonist and antagonist have sexual goals and one isn't just trying to fight off the other.

 

[Throngled Dongle]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I like the idea of a real discussion on the facets of H-gaming.

The notion of a roguelike H-game is interesting. I do like quite a few mainstream games in that genre. Its just hard for me to imagine such a thing as an H-game because it seems like it just hasn't even been tried for some reason.

Also, I don't think there is really any right or wrong style of H-game. I've enjoyed several examples of most of the styles you mentioned. Variety is nice. Even though I like RoR, I wouldn't want all H-games to be just that.

BF is what seems to really do it for me. I prefer my H-games to have a lot of interactivity. Also, my preference is that both the protagonist and antagonist have sexual goals and one isn't just trying to fight off the other.

Well, BF itself appears to be a fairly adaptable at replacing combat in multiple different mediums as well as the watered down "struggle to escape" mechanic that shows up in RoR.

Both can possibly show up in an h-roguelike or hybrid. There are different directions that people's interests can super-specialize in but I think they can be lumped together into some simple categories that such games could be made around. There's the full BF type that can get pretty involved in two way encounters as the protagonist humps their way through the game. The normal brutality that I hear roguelikes are known for instead can express itself as a bit more savage and wild sex (the polar opposite of long-winded Visual Novels or a full non-h RPG that just happens to have a few loving, tender h scenes mixed in).

The other main category advocates an even weaker antagonist who is at the mercy of his or her partners. They can certainly try BF but its more or less assumed they are outmatched (or in the case of male protagonist GoR, successfully getting off your opponent does not magically cause her to weaken and give up). This seems more in line with current Run or Rape but I'm not overly fond of how they tend to be so linear. I think if you take something like the survival horror genre, ease up on the puzzle aspects some, give it the session-orientated lose eventually structure of a rogue-like, and make the main threat sex rather than dismemberment you'll have an example of a better designed h-game.

Those two ideas alone could probably help develop the BF and GoR/RoR a bit.

Outside of that you get more into VR or cases where you're maybe supposed to be attached to the hero/heroine and DO want to see him/her succeed in which case the formula can be altered to include a reasonable end-point.

 

[Drix]

Re: General H-game design discussion

When it comes to a H-game the fundamental things is unlocking.

The more you make the unlocking process interesting the better.

This is why I love sandbox style games, especially if it has good gameplay.

The other part is to make the sex meaningful and part of the gameplay like in simulation games.

 

[Moonchaos]

Re: General H-game design discussion

If someone needs ideas for H-Games i can give it to them
There are lots of Systems and Gamestyles not yet or almost non existant which can be used for H-Games.

I would have created them myself but i am no good with either drawing or programming.
Storywise i may not be the best writer too, i have tons of ideas but never
written some down but as for H-Games i may not need that much of storyplots and twists.

 

[azurezero]

Re: General H-game design discussion

My main issue is reward sex seems so disingenuous, whereas linking the content to the conflict5 of the game via VR and GOR makes it a lot more interesting...

whereas when you save some and they fuck you... that seems to come close to the silly feminist argument of you don't put kindness coins in til sex falls out...
which ironically, is how most harvest moon games play out

 

[Noh0One]

Re: General H-game design discussion

The biggest problem with Game Over sex, at least as I view it, is a effort-vs-reward cost. When it takes awhile to get into a level and get through it, when it can take several hits to receive the Game Over, and when there's a chance of getting knocked away and not getting the scene you want... then it just doesn't feel like it's worth playing through all that just for the scene. This is especially true when a Game Over kicks the player back to the opening menu of the game, forcing them to go through it all again to get to the same place.

I'd think that the best way to handle this would be to make the game quick and allowing the player to jump right back into the same area quickly. Unless a game is trying to replicate some old NES gameplay, there probably wouldn't be much problem in allowing a player to do so. I saw "probably" because I'm sure there are exceptions, just as with many things.


As for roguelikes, one of the games I do like is MaiDensnow Eve. However, I rarely end up playing the game. The reason for that is any death takes away all your items. The end result is either attempting to achieve progress and getting better stuff, or getting to watch the H-scenes. If I could actually keep the items I find, then I've be slowly progressing in the game and be able to push further and watch the H-scenes with each playthrough. Losing everything means either doing a rather boring run where I kill everything immediately, or watching a bunch of H and not saving the game.

The end result is, unfortunately, no progress and me just getting bored with the game.

Perhaps MaiDensnow Eve just isn't the game for me? That could certainly be it, although the presence of saving and crafting seems to indicate it isn't meant to be restarted with each playthrough as a rougelike.

 

[azurezero]

Re: General H-game design discussion

The biggest problem with Game Over sex, at least as I view it, is a effort-vs-reward cost. When it takes awhile to get into a level and get through it, when it can take several hits to receive the Game Over, and when there's a chance of getting knocked away and not getting the scene you want... then it just doesn't feel like it's worth playing through all that just for the scene. This is especially true when a Game Over kicks the player back to the opening menu of the game, forcing them to go through it all again to get to the same place.

the dissonance between wanting to give in and wanting to complete your quest ought to be used to get into the mind of the character... "I need to save x, but xxx feels so good..." or something

 

[bootresha]

Re: General H-game design discussion

We should make a poll or turn the first post into a placeholder for ideas as to how eroge's H-content should be delivered. I don't think discussing about the actual content itself is fruitful because it's very subjective, so I decided to make a post about the h-content delivery instead.

What I wrote below this paragraph is just my opinion on currently existing h-content delivery system (on top off my head right now), but does not include VN. Mainly because VN gameplay mechanics only consists of following a story arc and sex is always a reward for following the path faithfully. Yeah, not all VN is like that, but I'm pretty sure most VN follows this pattern though. (feel free to give me counter examples, I would be happy to see them)

So anyway, regarding h-content delivery on eroge with gameplay, here are what I usually see:

1. "Game over/losing" rape (usually): Self explanatory.
Examples: Usually games with damaged clothing system or most of the platformer/sidescrolling eroges usually falls into this category. (and sometime, RPG like VH)

Problem:
- Some people might dislike the idea of losing to enemy, but then again, this is eroge we are talking about. (Personally, I get frustrated if I keep losing and keep getting raped.)
- Also, usually the type of sex that falls in this category is almost always rape or domination (you are the victim/dominated, obviously).

What I think is necessary for this category: Hmm, maybe H-content if you played the game flawlessly? This should encourage people to not just: lose, find someone else, lose, repeat.

2. "Winning the game" sex reward: Winning as in, you only get to see h-content if you win something in the game, and the sex scene itself doesn't really do anything to your char (stats-wise), and only for your viewing pleasure *wink**wink* (okay, maybe story progression as well).
Examples: I can't think of a good example of this category currently.

Problem:
- If the game is bad, palyer will be frustrated to hell; either because:
a. Bad designed. This is usually what I find in platformer, dem collision detections need fixin'.
OR
b. Game is way too hard. This is usually caused by the (shittily designed/rushed game), but sometime some eroges are just downright evil hard. And no, I'm not talking about dick becoming evil hard, I mean the game itself.

What I think is necessary for this category: Good gameplay. Please.

3. "Part of progressing" sex: Slightly different from the second category, this one means that sex is necessary for progressing your in-game character, not just a reward.

Example: Rance, I think. I never played Rance, but from what I heard, I think this game belongs in this category.

Sex for character stats progression? Sounds sweet. (note: very subjective)

Problem:
- The game may become very repetitive at some point though, because player may have to grind *nudge**nudge*. However, if the game has shitload of contents or the game is not too long, then this problem should be mitigated. (alternatively, long game with good pacing works too)

What I think is necessary for this category: Good gameplay, good amount of content or good pacing. (any combination of them, really)

Now, slightly out of context of h-content delivery but still related:
You know what I think is annoying? Having to see the same thing over and over but unable to skip it. Sometime I got frustrated because of making small mistake and having to watch my char getting raped for 10 unskippable seconds. Yeah, it may not sound much, but multiply that by many times, and you get frustration. No harm adding a button to skip or fast forward, right?

Feel free to add anything to this post!

Fuck, I can't believe it took me so long to write this post. Wtf, time?

 

[jemand69]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I guess this kind of thread will show up every now and then.

I personally dont think there is a 'right' or 'wrong' in any kind of game design. That leads to some great games in indie developement, but somehow, this does not apply to H-Games.

In the H-Game genre, it feels like everyone just goes for what already works instead of trying out new things. Id assume this has multiple reasons:

1. You dont have to change the game design to change the H aspect. Since the H aspect can be considered the most important aspect of an H game, the creators will feel like they changed enough if they change the topic or the artstyle or pretty much anything about the H aspect. You will see this in just about every RPGmaker game you can think of. Same gameplay, different hentai.

2. Many of the Creators of H content are always on a very tight budget. There is no margin for error and thus, you go for what already works, not for what you think is good game design.

3. No game design ideas. While this might seem like the least important problem (as there are many many many community member who think they have great ideas), it is in fact a big problem. Instead of going for straight gameplay fun, your game concept has to include the H content. You have to present enough H to make the player keep playing while not too much so that you are not able to generate enough CGs or sprites. It has to complement the gameplay and make the player feel rewarded whenever he reaches an H scene. Coming up with a design like this is rather hard.

So i think RoR and other game archetype will keep being produced simply because they are known to work, the gameplay is fun for a specific audience and they are relatively easy to produce.

Back to my argument about game designs being 'bad' or 'good':

While there are some gameplay elements which are generally considered bad game design, like backtracking and random encounters every 2 steps, there are many gameplay elements where people will be quick to say "thats bad game design" even though the game would be significantly lass fun to play without said gameplay element.

For example, in the NES mario world, you had to run through an entire level to get to the boss every single time. Some would call it bad game design, because after reaching the boss once, i have already proven that im able to beat the part up to the boss. But boss fights in mario were pretty short and easy to adapt to if you didnt have to run through an entire level prior to the fight. If you didnt have to run through the entire level every time, you would soon realize how boring those bossifghts are.


In conclusion, id assume that we wont come up with a 'solution' to how H games should be, but we might come to realize that some seemingly bad game designs are actually not that bad. One thing I personally understand from a design standpoint is make specific animations or results hard(er) to get. The player himself can choose whether or not he is willing to try to make the enemy use that specific grab for 2 minutes straight or just end the fight. It feels like bad design, but the result you get if you are successful is all the sweeter.

 

[habisain]

Re: General H-game design discussion

There was quite a long discussion on this topic on Hongfire recently, which might be worth a quick look at for anyone interested. Be warned that Shadow2k (who started the topic) did frequently write massive posts (in particular his 3.7k word post finishing the topic...), there's quite a lot of stuff in there which is interesting.

A super quick summary of (probably) important points:
1) There exist games which are adult, sexually themed, and also good games (with critical acclaim) which are not H-games (Luxuria Superbia, for example)
2) You ask 2 people what they want from an H-game, you'll likely get two different answers
3) Game design is a bitch to get right, but probably the most important thing is to pick your idea well, stick to it, and hope you manage to turn out a product with enough polish on it that it works.
4) Cookie cutter game design is annoying only for people who think that the current type of games are wrong. The reason why stereotypes and tropes exist is because they do work. There might be something better if someone was innovative, but most "innovative" games fail before they get off the ground. And considering that not that many developers do H-games, we won't get that much innovation just by numbers.

If people want to have a read, it's

You must be registered to see the links

. Also an interesting read (although not as related) is RPS's

You must be registered to see the links

, on sex in videogames.

 

[an anonymous]

Re: General H-game design discussion

taught most here knows my opinions about h games i write them down ones again

bf is the best h games design (in my opinion) since its makes no difference if you lose or win because you get h stuff animated or standard cgs (or even spirit sex)
all the time, and seeing h stuf is the main reason to play h games (for me)
especially jap ones (damn moon runes)

bf can mixed with real every other kind of game play (fetish)
brutal sm, bdsm skils kils for ror and gor stuff are good (if you like that stuff)

bfing animals, insects tentacle/other monsters (lolis) edc is possible to.

platforming, sitecroling, rpg maker,nes, flash edc no proplem for bf (i want a online mmorpg bf game)

male/femal (or futa gender change) mc with male/femal enimes for yuri/lesbian (or gay) stuff is also what bf is about,
(shota/loli mc for bf games are posible to)

bf wrestling mud wrestling, clothes rape fight, cat fight with bf,
underwater bf, or sex toy weapon fights, bf tournaments are great

.....i could write some more about the possible use of bf but i think that's enough for now (maybe i at more later)

 

[Nellis]

Re: General H-game design discussion

When I approach GOR-type games I usually try to get as far as I can without losing, then play from there. As Azurezero said, I really like the consequences of it all and how it works into the gameplay. Playing Saki-quest for the first time recently I noticed if Saki become pregnant, she becomes really weak in combat for a time.

I had this idea for a GOR game where the protagonist is cursed with a demon, rising up like Sauron to dominate and brainwash the living when you lose battles. Thought it'd be a fun and simple way to switch GOR from female-submissive to female-dominant or male-dominant

 

[azurezero]

Re: General H-game design discussion

When I approach GOR-type games I usually try to get as far as I can without losing, then play from there. As Azurezero said, I really like the consequences of it all and how it works into the gameplay. Playing Saki-quest for the first time recently I noticed if Saki become pregnant, she becomes really weak in combat for a time.

I had this idea for a GOR game where the protagonist is cursed with a demon, rising up like Sauron to dominate and brainwash the living when you lose battles. Thought it'd be a fun and simple way to switch GOR from female-submissive to female-dominant or male-dominant

well, im glad some people think i know what im talking about at any rate, even if i dont do a good job of bringing it into my games

 

[afa]

Re: General H-game design discussion

It kind of comes down to H games need to be a legit game, but at the same time need to delivery the H content in a (at least somewhat) logical manner.

GOR, RoL, BF, clothing destruction, prostitution, "whatever situation that puts character in compromising position" are popular for one reason or another. If we are willing to accept H games should go with what works then I think there is little reason to question the popularity and the continue existence these concepts. VR exist, there's also visual novel style, but I think the novel sort of stands on its own, however some of its elements could be adopted by other type of H game.

As game players we are trained to do well in a game where doing well is often rewarded or is a necessity for continuing. Of course as many have said before this go opposite in the case of GOR and the likes due to the added incentive to see H content (to see everything, to unlock everything). So the player is now in conflict with doing well and scene hunting. Occasionally it comes down to does the scene outweigh the counter intuitive nature of doing poorly. Even BF is not totally exempt from this.
The game can possibly make the GOR really works on the player by making the game super difficult, but that runs the risk of blocking out the game from the player altogether or in a rpg's case a shit ton of grinding/luck.

Next is character/story, it might sound silly to say "watch porn for the plot" but games these days trade fairly heavily on story be it up to par or not, and since H games are still game so character/story can't really be completely ignore. In a typical game a character's motive/goal usually coincides with the player. In an H game the player and character are in agreement when it comes to doing well, but might not be so when it comes to scene hunting.
Some game sort of mitigate this with the corruption concept, but from a player perspective it could just become a piece of the puzzle for unlocking scene.

Following up closely behind character/story is the impact/worth of a H scene. This deals with repeats, length, varieties, and aftermath of a scene. Is the scene repeatable? under what condition? Is it (at least somewhat) logical for this to be repeatable? BF scene are typically repeatable and it is fine then it just comes down to length and variety of it.
Aftermath and impact are more difficult. Corruption system deals with it usually by add X corruption for every time a scene trigger. But besides corruption could there be something else. How the character and game world should response. Or in the case of where H scenes are plentiful and happen nearly every few steps does that make them less impactful and becomes saturated, and should the character and the world have response according to that. And above all how to make it not look like another trigger/flag/key behind the code for more scene ahead.

TL;DR
H game makes player want to do well vs player want to do poorly to see H.
H game makes player goal to see H vs character goal to not get H
H game becomes an unlocking scene puzzle game
People want to see lots of H, but too much might make it seem trivial
World and character need to response to the H

 

[Throngled Dongle]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I'm glad the idea of sandbox got mentioned. Certainly some h-games are good as they are with traditional games but when someone decides to try innovating and gets the resources to do so, perhaps some sandbox elements could be mixed in.

I don't mean a strict "build your own scenario" or "playable gallery" type sandbox type game.

Show of hands, how many people have tried RoR platformers where once 'beaten' the girl will get raped, than tossed back down where she can get picked up by a different enemy. Did you ever keep a mental note of locations that were "conveniently" dense in enemy variety so when using the level select you could fight/escape your way through most of the level except conveniently 'go down' in that one spot?

Would it be more fun to fall down the first pit you see and into a single inescapable tentacle pod or attempt to make it through a bit of the level as "foreplay" before ending up missing a jump into a larger pit with an entire lake of tentacle pod monsters at the bottom?

The basic content is awarded for failure in the BF/GoR type games but since that is boring I do tend to try to look for segments of game play where the game's mechanics can be used to engineer interesting failure. For me its not the effort to reach a later stage that makes its particular h-content more interesting, it's the 'struggle' that makes defeat nicer. It's lame to have to stand in place and keep getting hit in order to see the scene. However, if you see a pattern that you can recognize and botch on purpose so you get taken down just feet from escape rather than at the start - that's more fun (unless the game really penalizes for failure like extremely distant save points).

Also, the head-canon aspect of whether or not the protagonist submits in something like BF is fun to consider as well. If its a fetish you don't like, it makes sense you'd put up a bit more of a fight to escape. If its something you really like... the protagonist may end up getting 'stunned' by the amazing pleasure and defending a few turns in the BF - even if he does snap to his senses and starts struggling again he's already set too far back. In this example, I think it would be better to more or less have all the fights reasonably winnable with a little careful planning so you can progress to the next area of content when you're ready, but if its your favorite thing on top of you you can sabotage your chances with something as simple as "dazed and enjoying the view" for 3 turns (rather than having to defend for 30+ times because if you did anything else the poor slime girl would be atomized).

And on that final note, H-RPG's are basically the only place where I can actually enjoy confusion/binding type status effects disguised as seduction or pheromones or something.

 

[TitanAnteus]

Re: General H-game design discussion

So this thread has put out a lot of valid points.

I'll just highlight out a few I thought were interesting and comment on them.

1. More H-Games should have BF as a core mechanic because people come to the game for H and H should incorporate everything.
   I partially disagree with this statement. Sure BF puts the ero at the forefront, but that means a lot of the other elements of the game will change. Let's say the author is trying to write a likable protagonist, but the game system is BF.
   EXAMPLES:
   • Luka from MGQ is a likable character. He's honest, straightforward and goal-orientated. If the game was battlefuck, which I dont think it is... Luka doesn't attack with his dick, or finger the opponent... I think it'd diminish his character.
   • Wil from Kamidori, is a diligent, intelligent character. If he attacked his enemies by fingering or dicking them, I'd value him less as a character.
   
   What's the alternative? Extremely promiscuous characters... That's... so shallow.
   
   Also, if every single aspect of the game is erotic in nature, I believe that dilutes the erotic aspect of the game as a whole. While the game Utawarerumono had only OK CG, and the scene selection wasn't as high, they really drew me in, and while MGQ had tons of scenes... you didn't see them unless you lost so it was still a positive change of frame.
   
   
2. I'd think that the best way to handle this would be to make the game quick and allowing the player to jump right back into the same area quickly/.
   
   I think what you're really bothered by is the fact that H-Games are challenging which I agree with and am completely OK with. Hard games make rewards more rewarding.
   
   
   
3. the dissonance between wanting to give in and wanting to complete your quest ought to be used to get into the mind of the character... "I need to save x, but xxx feels so good..." or something
   I completely agree. I find myself arguing with myself about whether I should continue or lose to this monster to see what it'll do, and I think that's a good thing to have as long as both behaviors are rewarded.

 

[Rule 34]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I disagree with the statement that BF has to make characters uninteresting - as long as it's only the monsters that use the BF moves.

One thing I haven't seen yet is a hentai version of Rogue's Legacy - a sidescrolling jump 'n run 'n slash. If your character dies, his or (preferably IMO) her ancestors pick up where they left off, equipped with the money (or other applicable currency) that their parents left them to buy character upgrades and equipment. Perhaps that currency is semen. Perhaps demon semen can be used in spells to augment one's body. Perhaps the offspring is actually the one of the adventuress and a slime-monster, or a hellhound, or a futa succubus, gaining traits from whatever monster ended up landing the knock-out/knock-up-blow, having players seek out monsters with desirable traits as soon as their health runs low. The sex is both reward for making it as far as you did and part of the game mechanic.

 

[TitanAnteus]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I disagree with the statement that BF has to make characters uninteresting - as long as it's only the monsters that use the BF moves.

One thing I haven't seen yet is a hentai version of Rogue's Legacy - a sidescrolling jump 'n run 'n slash. If your character dies, his or (preferably IMO) her ancestors pick up where they left off, equipped with the money (or other applicable currency) that their parents left them to buy character upgrades and equipment. Perhaps that currency is semen. Perhaps demon semen can be used in spells to augment one's body. Perhaps the offspring is actually the one of the adventuress and a slime-monster, or a hellhound, or a futa succubus, gaining traits from whatever monster ended up landing the knock-out/knock-up-blow, having players seek out monsters with desirable traits as soon as their health runs low. The sex is both reward for making it as far as you did and part of the game mechanic.

Is it BF if only the monster uses the BF moves, because that would make MGQ BF.

 

[Throngled Dongle]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I disagree with the statement that BF has to make characters uninteresting - as long as it's only the monsters that use the BF moves.

One thing I haven't seen yet is a hentai version of Rogue's Legacy - a sidescrolling jump 'n run 'n slash. If your character dies, his or (preferably IMO) her ancestors pick up where they left off, equipped with the money (or other applicable currency) that their parents left them to buy character upgrades and equipment. Perhaps that currency is semen. Perhaps demon semen can be used in spells to augment one's body. Perhaps the offspring is actually the one of the adventuress and a slime-monster, or a hellhound, or a futa succubus, gaining traits from whatever monster ended up landing the knock-out/knock-up-blow, having players seek out monsters with desirable traits as soon as their health runs low. The sex is both reward for making it as far as you did and part of the game mechanic.

You must be registered to see the links

This game does have an element of that. Unfortunately the system is a bit hard to understand untranslated but I think its vaguely based on Call of Cthuthlu. Only instead of horrors beyond mortal comprehension sapping your sanity, its succubi spiking your lust until you completely give in to their wishes.

If you are weakened through too much sex or hit 0 san and give in your character will get screwed to perma-death. However the next day a replacement shows up in town with a bit of a legacy stat carry-over which you can re-allocate however you want.

You can't actually replay fights that you've won unless you go to NG+ or find the second gallery that allows that.

Oddly enough, the town changes and becomes more robust as you burn through adventurers. Feed the local succubi 5 times, town gets upgraded. Feed them 10, 15, etc times more dialogue and stuff. I think its entirely aesthetic but its an interesting idea to play with.



As for BF screwing with character development, I think the progenitor of BF games (Succubus Quest) did a decent job with that. From what little I understand - the hero is not a shallow, sexual person to begin with. It is with great surprise that he learns that he cannot harm the succubi through direct attacks and must learn really quickly how to work the female body before they work his.

Also, I propose that BF be adjusted to include both 2-way and single-way BF in casual conversation. The finer distinction can be discussed per example. I propose this because I've always considered BF to be a fill in for traditional combat. Even if its just one partner attempting BF moves it suddenly changes the entire mood of the fight. (Or there's also games like Desire Dungeon which you can freely alternate back and forth between regular attacks and h-attacks - as can your opponents. Pleasure attacks come out of your MP rather than your HP in that game. I would consider that BF as well even though its not strictly enforced.)