Suggestions
- Thread starter Tassadar
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Re: Suggestions
The "just make up a list of 5 numbers that I like" method is surely the one I like best, but honestly it seems a bit too steep on the high end. And as I'm sure I've said before, I've never liked d20 for success/failure, at least for unopposed checks. I've always felt that a normal curve was more appropriate then a flat line, something achieved by rolling multiple dice and adding them up. (2d10 instead of d20, for example, has 11 average instead of 10.5, but has a 1/100 chance of rolling a 20 (and the same for a 2) instead of a 1/20.
The "just make up a list of 5 numbers that I like" method is surely the one I like best, but honestly it seems a bit too steep on the high end. And as I'm sure I've said before, I've never liked d20 for success/failure, at least for unopposed checks. I've always felt that a normal curve was more appropriate then a flat line, something achieved by rolling multiple dice and adding them up. (2d10 instead of d20, for example, has 11 average instead of 10.5, but has a 1/100 chance of rolling a 20 (and the same for a 2) instead of a 1/20.
Re: Suggestions
I didn't just make up numbers, I used one of those formulas you always see in math class. 10 + (2 x N!).
Also: High level spells are meant to be limited to those who have high int and specialization. You can't cast level 4 or 5 spells without specialization. ... This is also why I put the percent chances in for every spell level with an average stat caster. That way you could see what kind of percentages everyone is going to have.
As for the suggestion of changing to 2d10 instead of 1d20... hm. You make a lot of sense in theory, but part of the flat line approach is to help everyone hit the upper and lower ends of the roll ranges. If the dice rolls are changed like this, then even one or two point differences skew the odds sharply and cut down on randomness a lot... which is a large part of the fun of playing, knowing there's always that risk of failure.
... I would suggest though adding crit-fail and crit-successes to die rolls. A 1 is auto-fail, and a 20 is auto-success. Even if you normally can't fail, or can't succeed based on your stats.
I didn't just make up numbers, I used one of those formulas you always see in math class. 10 + (2 x N!).
Also: High level spells are meant to be limited to those who have high int and specialization. You can't cast level 4 or 5 spells without specialization. ... This is also why I put the percent chances in for every spell level with an average stat caster. That way you could see what kind of percentages everyone is going to have.
As for the suggestion of changing to 2d10 instead of 1d20... hm. You make a lot of sense in theory, but part of the flat line approach is to help everyone hit the upper and lower ends of the roll ranges. If the dice rolls are changed like this, then even one or two point differences skew the odds sharply and cut down on randomness a lot... which is a large part of the fun of playing, knowing there's always that risk of failure.
... I would suggest though adding crit-fail and crit-successes to die rolls. A 1 is auto-fail, and a 20 is auto-success. Even if you normally can't fail, or can't succeed based on your stats.
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Re: Suggestions
Notice: I added a number of Talents, along with changing a bunch of the other Talents, and I'm going to allow people to re-spec their characters if they like. Update character sheets.
Also, I added an element and changed the damage on many of the spells. And I'm probably going to change the Body element to make it less cripplingly expensive at some point in the near future
See, the problem I have with critical success/failure is that it makes possible some things that just shouldn't be, like missing or being hit be an exceptionally weak enemy. I am tempted to add in critical hits, at times, but if I did I wouldn't be throwing in critical failures.
I do need to add some more mid level enemies though, the base-20s are being slaughtered too easily and the high end enemies aren't fair or realistic to send at people very often.
Notice: I added a number of Talents, along with changing a bunch of the other Talents, and I'm going to allow people to re-spec their characters if they like. Update character sheets.
Also, I added an element and changed the damage on many of the spells. And I'm probably going to change the Body element to make it less cripplingly expensive at some point in the near future
See, the problem I have with critical success/failure is that it makes possible some things that just shouldn't be, like missing or being hit be an exceptionally weak enemy. I am tempted to add in critical hits, at times, but if I did I wouldn't be throwing in critical failures.
I do need to add some more mid level enemies though, the base-20s are being slaughtered too easily and the high end enemies aren't fair or realistic to send at people very often.
Re: Suggestions
Good spell fixes Tass. This balances everything out a lot better, mages were a bit overpowered before. Without going into too much detail... everything looks close to balanced now.
You missed one though: 4) Greater Armor or Greater Push: increases dodge by 2 + Mind/2, or forces an enemy within 20 feet back 10 feet and knocks it prone if it fails a (Your Mind + 10) vs (Enemy Body), doing d8 x Mind/4 damage. 2 energy per round to maintain. Conjuration or Evocation.
As for fixing Body spells: Would adjusting the upkeep costs work? Make it cost that much every 2 rounds? Or how about branching out the higher level spells? Instead of adjusting just one stat, make higher spells affect multiple relative stats.
To Hit + Dodge
Stealth + Damage
Mind + Casting
How about making some of them have multiple targets, like a group-buff spell, or area healing?
Just a few ideas...
Good spell fixes Tass. This balances everything out a lot better, mages were a bit overpowered before. Without going into too much detail... everything looks close to balanced now.
You missed one though: 4) Greater Armor or Greater Push: increases dodge by 2 + Mind/2, or forces an enemy within 20 feet back 10 feet and knocks it prone if it fails a (Your Mind + 10) vs (Enemy Body), doing d8 x Mind/4 damage. 2 energy per round to maintain. Conjuration or Evocation.
As for fixing Body spells: Would adjusting the upkeep costs work? Make it cost that much every 2 rounds? Or how about branching out the higher level spells? Instead of adjusting just one stat, make higher spells affect multiple relative stats.
To Hit + Dodge
Stealth + Damage
Mind + Casting
How about making some of them have multiple targets, like a group-buff spell, or area healing?
Just a few ideas...
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Re: Suggestions
While you're re-working spells...
Proposing 2 new storm spells. In my previous fight I noticed the complete lack of a single-target spell that didn't require a MvB check... and one little flavor/utility one.
Note: you changed "downburst" (level 3 storm) to (d6 + Mind/3) x 2... but you left "gust" (level 3 storm) as d6*M/4. Admittedly it works out to almost exactly the same average damage (for my Mind, at least), but you were changing all the "DX*M/Y" ones to "dX+M/Y" (or similar).
Proposing 1 entire new element, and it's a sweet one... time:
(Heh, every good magic system needs a little "save or die", and it's not like a level 5 spell wouldn't kill anyone at or below the player's attribute level anyway...)
(Also, this was very nearly the element I used for myself, but I couldn't come up with enough spells at the time I decided.)
Proposing 2 new body(?) spells:
Next up: energy with regards to mages. It just feels like maybe the spirit attribute is a little too important to mages, compared to mind/spirit for warriors and mind for spirit-based characters.
Example: my character, more then half of stat points in mind, tries to cast a level 5 storm/trans spell. +13 base casting, +10 "storm", +8 "transmutation", +3 "lucky", no other bonuses or penalties. d20+34 vs 40. 75% chance of success. That's not the problem. The problem is that I have 30 energy and this is going to cost 12, pass or fail.
I feel like someone with mind focus would hesitate a little too much to use a level 5 spell. Here are some suggestions, one or more of which might fix this without breaking the game, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm probably going to wait for a few more changes and then re-roll my character anyway, mostly because of the changes to spell difficulty combined with a more complete understanding of the game. Still going to be a storm mage, but some other stuff needs to be moved around.
Edit: and using my natural talent of looking into the future, I see something slightly irksome. This is going to be a sort of combined question/suggestion, in several parts.
While you're re-working spells...
Proposing 2 new storm spells. In my previous fight I noticed the complete lack of a single-target spell that didn't require a MvB check... and one little flavor/utility one.
- 1 - Rain shield: you gather energy by slowing individual raindrops and use that energy to deflect their path slightly, creating a 5-foot radius where it isn't raining at ground level. Ineffective against hail, snow, and even too much rain. Transmutation.
- 2 - Freak hail: a large hailstone falls as you direct, dealing D4 + M/4 damage if it hits. Conjuration.
Note: you changed "downburst" (level 3 storm) to (d6 + Mind/3) x 2... but you left "gust" (level 3 storm) as d6*M/4. Admittedly it works out to almost exactly the same average damage (for my Mind, at least), but you were changing all the "DX*M/Y" ones to "dX+M/Y" (or similar).
Proposing 1 entire new element, and it's a sweet one... time:
- 1 - Haste: Apparent time slows down. Effectively increases your speed by 5. 1 energy/round to hold. Transmutation
- 2 - Water Walk: You speed up your feet until you can walk on water, as long as you aren't heavily burdened and you keep moving. 1 energy/round upkeep. Transmutation.
- 2 - Inertia: Manipulate time to effectively increase the damage of a melee or projectile attack in this or the next round by M/4 damage and the to-hit by M/10. Evocation.
- 3 - Slow: Creatures within a 5 foot radius of the target must make a mind vs (the greater of mind and body) check each round or be unable to act. Costs 3 energy/round to maintain. Transmutation.
- 4 - Greater Haste: One target ally can make 2 actions every round. 4 energy/round to maintain. Transmutation.
- 4 - Greater Slow: Enemy creatures within a 10 foot radius of the target must make a (mind + 10) vs (the greater of mind and body) check each round or be unable to act. Costs 4 energy/round to maintain. Transmutation.
- 5 - The Sands of Time: All living, mortal enemies in a 20 foot radius of the target must save (mind + 10) vs (the lesser of mind and body) or die, as centuries pass in a single instant. Even non-living creatures and those who survive take (d12 + M/3)*2 damage from the grinding of (lesser amounts of) time. Evocation.
(Heh, every good magic system needs a little "save or die", and it's not like a level 5 spell wouldn't kill anyone at or below the player's attribute level anyway...)
(Also, this was very nearly the element I used for myself, but I couldn't come up with enough spells at the time I decided.)
Proposing 2 new body(?) spells:
- 1 - Far Talk: Project your voice, either to a spot you can see or to a person you can identify. Costs 1 energy/round to use. Transmutation.
- 2 - Eavesdrop: Far talk in reverse. If listening on a visible target, a MvM check must be made each round or any creature within 5 feet becomes aware someone is magically listening. If listening on a distant target, a MvM+10 check must be made, or your attempt will be noticed and may be blocked at the target's discretion. Costs 1 energy/round to use. Transmutation.
Next up: energy with regards to mages. It just feels like maybe the spirit attribute is a little too important to mages, compared to mind/spirit for warriors and mind for spirit-based characters.
Example: my character, more then half of stat points in mind, tries to cast a level 5 storm/trans spell. +13 base casting, +10 "storm", +8 "transmutation", +3 "lucky", no other bonuses or penalties. d20+34 vs 40. 75% chance of success. That's not the problem. The problem is that I have 30 energy and this is going to cost 12, pass or fail.
I feel like someone with mind focus would hesitate a little too much to use a level 5 spell. Here are some suggestions, one or more of which might fix this without breaking the game, as far as I'm concerned.
- Failed spells cost (level-1)*1 energy rather then (level-1)*3, as nothing happened.
- Fail casting check by 4 or less and a "partial result" happens - half damage, other effects at DM's discretion.
- Everyone gets +10 energy pool.
- Mage-specific talent to make mind count full instead of half for energy pool.
- All spells reduced in cost to (level-1)*2 energy.
- Mage-specific talent to reduce global energy cost to (level-1)*2. Or tie this to existing either "school" focus or "element" focus.
- "greater" transmuter/evoker/conjurer: Additional +4 to the caster roll and spells of this school cost (level-1)*2.
- "greater" elemental focus: Spells of your chosen school are treated as being one level lower then they actually are, minimum 1, in regards to both energy cost and caster checks.
- Innate mage ability to sacrifice health for energy at will.
I'm probably going to wait for a few more changes and then re-roll my character anyway, mostly because of the changes to spell difficulty combined with a more complete understanding of the game. Still going to be a storm mage, but some other stuff needs to be moved around.
Edit: and using my natural talent of looking into the future, I see something slightly irksome. This is going to be a sort of combined question/suggestion, in several parts.
- the "Dueling" talent says that it gives +6 to-hit and +2 dodge while "wielding only a single one handed weapon". Does a pistol count?
- Because if I re-roll there's a good chance I'm taking dueling if the answer to 1. is yes, and "skill with pistol" if it's no.
- Now, that's a problem because on my "to get when you have XP" list the first thing is "Grappling Expert" and apparently you can only take "natural warrior" once.
- Can I suggest that "grappling expert" perhaps transcends actual combat, given its "+8 to escape grapple" part, and maybe should exist as "general", a category which is rather lacking at the moment?
- If not, I feel I should point out that's it technically within the rules ATM for me to take "Natural Succubus: Superior Warrior: Grappling Expert". You'd probably just veto it anyway, but I feel like you should explicitly close that loophole because I'm a little OCD tonight.
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Re: Suggestions
New Mage Talent:
Multi-Casting - Can cast multiple spells in a turn, but causes spell difficulty and casting energy to increase by one level for each additional spell cast.
(Example, Casting 2 extra spells in a turn makes each spell have a +2 difficulty and cost. So casting spells level 2, 1, and 1 same turn would require checks for a spells level 4, 3, and 3, and cost energy to match. (9, 6, and 6, instead of 3, 0, and 0))
New General Talent:
Remove Flaw - Only Buyable Once. A character who has undergone enough training can overcome a flaw that is regularly encountered, better preparing herself for future encounters.
New mage element:
Mind Spells
1 - Mental Clarity - A simple spell that helps organize the caster's thoughts, gives +1 to any casting check, and +3 to mind for checks vs. enemy on mind spells.
2 - Deadlock - Causes caster and target's minds to become locked in mental combat, preventing either from taking actions, leaving both stunned. d20 + Caster Mind vs. d20 + Enemy Mind. Costs 1 energy per turn to maintain.
3 - Hindrance - Strains an enemy's mind and ability to focus, causing a stacking -2 to all stats (body, mind, and spirit) per turn (-2 on 1st turn, -4 on 2nd turn, -6 on 3rd, etc.). The effect wears off in as many turns as it was kept, restoring stats at the same rate they were taken. Affects damage rolls, to hit rolls, and all checks. Costs 2 energy per turn to maintain.
3 - Mental Grapple - Caster attempts to initiate a grapple against the target using mind stat instead of body stat. All normal grapple rules apply, including Grapple Expert talent, except for tearing clothes. Costs 1 energy per turn to maintain.
4 - Dominate Mind - Subjugate and take control of another's mind through powerful telepathy. d20 + Caster Mind vs. d20 + Target Mind to initiate. 3 energy per turn to maintain.
5 - Rewrite Memory - Completely and permanently changes some of target's memories. d20 + Caster's Mind vs. d20 + Target's Mind + Target's Spirit + Target's HP + Depth of memories to change*. Depending on depth of memory changed, target may break the spell if confronted by proof of memories changed.
*Surface memories, +0 - Change the memories of one fight or encounter, subtle effects like making guards forget they were ever attacked, or a friend or ally forgetting a betrayal.
*Recent memories, +5 - Change memories within the last few days, can cause effects similar to amnesia or making someone believe the caster was a newly found ally.
*Long Term memories, +15 - Unable to change more than subtle traits of these memories, the caster may cause effects such as subtly insert herself as a childhood friend, or change the memories of a slave's master to being the caster.
*Total Memory Re-write, +30 - The most severe form of the spell, almost impossible to cast effectively, but also nearly impossible to break the spell. The target's entire life can be rewritten at the caster's whim.
New Mage Talent:
Multi-Casting - Can cast multiple spells in a turn, but causes spell difficulty and casting energy to increase by one level for each additional spell cast.
(Example, Casting 2 extra spells in a turn makes each spell have a +2 difficulty and cost. So casting spells level 2, 1, and 1 same turn would require checks for a spells level 4, 3, and 3, and cost energy to match. (9, 6, and 6, instead of 3, 0, and 0))
New General Talent:
Remove Flaw - Only Buyable Once. A character who has undergone enough training can overcome a flaw that is regularly encountered, better preparing herself for future encounters.
New mage element:
Mind Spells
1 - Mental Clarity - A simple spell that helps organize the caster's thoughts, gives +1 to any casting check, and +3 to mind for checks vs. enemy on mind spells.
2 - Deadlock - Causes caster and target's minds to become locked in mental combat, preventing either from taking actions, leaving both stunned. d20 + Caster Mind vs. d20 + Enemy Mind. Costs 1 energy per turn to maintain.
3 - Hindrance - Strains an enemy's mind and ability to focus, causing a stacking -2 to all stats (body, mind, and spirit) per turn (-2 on 1st turn, -4 on 2nd turn, -6 on 3rd, etc.). The effect wears off in as many turns as it was kept, restoring stats at the same rate they were taken. Affects damage rolls, to hit rolls, and all checks. Costs 2 energy per turn to maintain.
3 - Mental Grapple - Caster attempts to initiate a grapple against the target using mind stat instead of body stat. All normal grapple rules apply, including Grapple Expert talent, except for tearing clothes. Costs 1 energy per turn to maintain.
4 - Dominate Mind - Subjugate and take control of another's mind through powerful telepathy. d20 + Caster Mind vs. d20 + Target Mind to initiate. 3 energy per turn to maintain.
5 - Rewrite Memory - Completely and permanently changes some of target's memories. d20 + Caster's Mind vs. d20 + Target's Mind + Target's Spirit + Target's HP + Depth of memories to change*. Depending on depth of memory changed, target may break the spell if confronted by proof of memories changed.
*Surface memories, +0 - Change the memories of one fight or encounter, subtle effects like making guards forget they were ever attacked, or a friend or ally forgetting a betrayal.
*Recent memories, +5 - Change memories within the last few days, can cause effects similar to amnesia or making someone believe the caster was a newly found ally.
*Long Term memories, +15 - Unable to change more than subtle traits of these memories, the caster may cause effects such as subtly insert herself as a childhood friend, or change the memories of a slave's master to being the caster.
*Total Memory Re-write, +30 - The most severe form of the spell, almost impossible to cast effectively, but also nearly impossible to break the spell. The target's entire life can be rewritten at the caster's whim.
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Re: Suggestions
If you are going to be both decreasing the cost of mage spells and increasing their energy, all spirit spells should have an extra Spirit/something in their damage calculations or the mind/something in mage spells should be removed.
To compare spells:
Currently, this spell (For your 30 mind mage) deals 2d8+15 (Average 24) to all targets in a 10ft radius for a cost of 6.
Using this spell with a cost of 6 deals 12d8 (average 54) to a single target. While, yes, this number is larger, there is also the fact that it only targets one enemy where as your spell hits multiple enemies per turn. When set for an area of effect like your spell, the spell does only and average of 21 damage and is risky either way as the maximum and minimum for the spells are much wider.
What's even worse, is Holy fire is the strongest spell that spirit mages can cast as opposed to:
The only spirit spell that even comes close to a mage spell in power is Holy Fire while the rest cost an obscene amount to replicate the effects.
As a spirit user, I'm going to have to say you didn't seem to pay any attention to comparing the two magic types when you made these suggestions. As such, I have a few comments on your suggestions (The first one just being a general comment)
- It's called Natural Spirit: Greater Energy Pool talent.
- You would then need to make a spirit talent that doubles the effectiveness of spirit in calculating energy.
- You seem to be missing the fact that mage spells tend to have a much better damage to cost ration when dealing with multiple opponents. A spirit caster's spells are only more efficient than a mages against a single opponent (In fact, it seems almost none of the mage spells only target one person but have area of effects). Simply put, spirit casters have more energy because they use much more of it when casting spells.
If you are going to be both decreasing the cost of mage spells and increasing their energy, all spirit spells should have an extra Spirit/something in their damage calculations or the mind/something in mage spells should be removed.
To compare spells:
Currently, this spell (For your 30 mind mage) deals 2d8+15 (Average 24) to all targets in a 10ft radius for a cost of 6.
Using this spell with a cost of 6 deals 12d8 (average 54) to a single target. While, yes, this number is larger, there is also the fact that it only targets one enemy where as your spell hits multiple enemies per turn. When set for an area of effect like your spell, the spell does only and average of 21 damage and is risky either way as the maximum and minimum for the spells are much wider.
What's even worse, is Holy fire is the strongest spell that spirit mages can cast as opposed to:
Which costs 6 to deal 2d10 (Average 11) to a single target.
The only spirit spell that even comes close to a mage spell in power is Holy Fire while the rest cost an obscene amount to replicate the effects.
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Re: Suggestions
1.) Natural Spirit: Greater Energy Pool would still exist. The suggestion was that *everyone* get a free 10 energy, mostly because two classes burn energy in fighting *and* can have their energy attacked.
2.) I'd say making "mind counts full for energy" a general talent would make sense.
3.) Your own calculations show that the benefit to AoE is small, and you ignored the fact that a spirit user could cast their AoE more often, or just at higher power the same number of times.
Okay, assume 30-10-10.
Flame - 6 energy (1/5 of total), (d8+8)*2 = 25 average, 10 Foot radius. Against a single target.... (d8+8)*2 = 25 average.
Holy Fire @ 8 energy (1/5 of total), d6*8 = 28 average, 20 foot radius. Against a single target... 2d8*8 = 72 average.
Holy fire is objectively better. Against a single target it's obscenely better. And then there's the whole "caster check" thing. There's a chance for even a specialist mage to fail at casting a level 3 spell while penetrated. I think for mine I calculated it to be 20%. So to kill the thing mounting you flame works out to about 18 damage per use and any attempt to use a higher-level spell will fail. For holy fire, you kill it in one round regardless. I'm willing to chalk that one up to the benefits of being spirit-based, but when you have comparable AoE, better single target, more castings, *and* 100% success....
Obviously other spirit powers need a bit of a buff, but I think my point stands.
1.) Natural Spirit: Greater Energy Pool would still exist. The suggestion was that *everyone* get a free 10 energy, mostly because two classes burn energy in fighting *and* can have their energy attacked.
2.) I'd say making "mind counts full for energy" a general talent would make sense.
3.) Your own calculations show that the benefit to AoE is small, and you ignored the fact that a spirit user could cast their AoE more often, or just at higher power the same number of times.
Okay, assume 30-10-10.
Flame - 6 energy (1/5 of total), (d8+8)*2 = 25 average, 10 Foot radius. Against a single target.... (d8+8)*2 = 25 average.
Holy Fire @ 8 energy (1/5 of total), d6*8 = 28 average, 20 foot radius. Against a single target... 2d8*8 = 72 average.
Holy fire is objectively better. Against a single target it's obscenely better. And then there's the whole "caster check" thing. There's a chance for even a specialist mage to fail at casting a level 3 spell while penetrated. I think for mine I calculated it to be 20%. So to kill the thing mounting you flame works out to about 18 damage per use and any attempt to use a higher-level spell will fail. For holy fire, you kill it in one round regardless. I'm willing to chalk that one up to the benefits of being spirit-based, but when you have comparable AoE, better single target, more castings, *and* 100% success....
Obviously other spirit powers need a bit of a buff, but I think my point stands.
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Re: Suggestions
@Pheonix Alugere:
Why do you think holy fire is a single target spell? If it can be manipulated the same as the Flame spell, then either both spells are multi-target, or both spells are single target.
@Both Pheonix Alugere and thetwo:
The difference is that Spirit "mages" are not meant to be magic attackers only. And while mages do have better average damage per energy spent (usually), this is fair since Magic users have difficulty checks on spells. And once a magic user is in trouble, all of her stronger spells quickly become unusable. -4 just for taking damage or grappled is 20% more fail chance. And that -12 from penetrated is a whopping 60% failure chance added on. Even with high mind and specialization, this makes stronger spells impossible to use... on top of area attacks not being the spells of choice while you're right on top of the enemy (or the enemy is on top of you, depending on positioning).
The only adjustment I'd make to their energy cost is reduce the cost on a failed spell, since it's only fair if a spell fails they don't keep pouring all of their energy into it. Though it should only be reduced, not zero-cost.
Spirit users also have some of the more unique and powerful skills due to effects. Just to cite a few examples...
@Pheonix Alugere:
Why do you think holy fire is a single target spell? If it can be manipulated the same as the Flame spell, then either both spells are multi-target, or both spells are single target.
@Both Pheonix Alugere and thetwo:
The difference is that Spirit "mages" are not meant to be magic attackers only. And while mages do have better average damage per energy spent (usually), this is fair since Magic users have difficulty checks on spells. And once a magic user is in trouble, all of her stronger spells quickly become unusable. -4 just for taking damage or grappled is 20% more fail chance. And that -12 from penetrated is a whopping 60% failure chance added on. Even with high mind and specialization, this makes stronger spells impossible to use... on top of area attacks not being the spells of choice while you're right on top of the enemy (or the enemy is on top of you, depending on positioning).
The only adjustment I'd make to their energy cost is reduce the cost on a failed spell, since it's only fair if a spell fails they don't keep pouring all of their energy into it. Though it should only be reduced, not zero-cost.
Spirit users also have some of the more unique and powerful skills due to effects. Just to cite a few examples...
Energy Blade - Can drain spirit energy and create a massive damage melee attack weapon.
Nightmarish Image - With all enemies even looking at the caster needing to roll checks or flee, this can quickly ruin a "boss fight" by eliminating all followers.
Holy Wall - Blocks. Anything. The end. If an enemy breaks through this wall, then either your spirit is too low, or Tass just threw a demon-god at you. XD
Nightmarish Image - With all enemies even looking at the caster needing to roll checks or flee, this can quickly ruin a "boss fight" by eliminating all followers.
Holy Wall - Blocks. Anything. The end. If an enemy breaks through this wall, then either your spirit is too low, or Tass just threw a demon-god at you. XD
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Re: Suggestions
Holy Wall... Read wall of force. Same spell, much lower cost. To achieve the same affect as wall of force (Costing 6 energy to cast and 1 to maintain) the spirit mage would cast (9 energy and 2 to maintain)
Energy Blade... 2) Charge: Turn any object into a high damage low cost weapon. Not to mention that energy blade's draining ability merely offsets the large energy drain at high levels.
You say nightmarish image can ruin boss fights?
Edit:
- Reread what I wrote, I actually gave two different uses for holy fire, you seemed to have ignored the first one. Besides, Flame is not a single target spell. It's minimum area is a 10ft radius while holy flame's strong setting is single target. Not to mention, if you maintain the flamethrower version of flame, it can stun your target.
- This statement is blatantly wrong, reread the spirit magic section, specifically the 'Necromancer', 'Psychic', and 'Priestess' spell groups. Also, you are aware that spirit spells can miss where as magic ones cannot?
Holy Wall... Read wall of force. Same spell, much lower cost. To achieve the same affect as wall of force (Costing 6 energy to cast and 1 to maintain) the spirit mage would cast (9 energy and 2 to maintain)
Energy Blade... 2) Charge: Turn any object into a high damage low cost weapon. Not to mention that energy blade's draining ability merely offsets the large energy drain at high levels.
You say nightmarish image can ruin boss fights?
Even bosses can't resist that stun. It isn't that hard for a character to get 60 in one stat at which point, for the cost of 9 per round, you deal 2d20+30 to a boss and stun it without having to worry about the spell failing. The boss can't do anything to respond.
Edit:
Given that mind is mostly important for mages and is only used for pleasure damage hp for anyone else, if this is put in, then there should be general talents allowing spirit to count in full for each of hp and pleasure, Strength to be have talents for pleasure and energy, and an additional mind talent that allows it to be used for hp as well. There should be no general feet that only favors one class. If there is one such as that, there needs to be mirrors for the other classes.
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Re: Suggestions
So the new element needs a bit of tweaking, the other ones were fairly balanced.
And as far as I knew, most magic attacks still required a to-hit roll for most spells.
Maybe Tass can clarify that?
I don't want to get into a huge fight here, but I chose one spell from each element just to show that they DO have strong effects.
If you dislike the limited Spirit powers, why not suggest new ones then?
So the new element needs a bit of tweaking, the other ones were fairly balanced.
And as far as I knew, most magic attacks still required a to-hit roll for most spells.
Maybe Tass can clarify that?
I don't want to get into a huge fight here, but I chose one spell from each element just to show that they DO have strong effects.
If you dislike the limited Spirit powers, why not suggest new ones then?
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Re: Suggestions
After some review it seems that while some do require a to hit, not all mage spells do.
Also, with the holy wall example, I pointed out that magic has a stronger spell than that while the other two had comparable versions and that, therefore, spirit magic isn't really stronger.
Currently, the two magic types are balanced and equal, the revisions that the others want to put down the pipe would weigh things heavily in favor of mind based magic.
Also, when claiming that spirit magic has unique spells with the potential to be stronger: spirit mages have to spend talents to gain spells.
Without spending any talents (Either to gain spells or wizard specializations given that I'm not sure how you get those) a Mind based caster can cast any of thirty spells while a spirit based caster can't cast any. It costs one talent for the spirit caster to gain their first spell, and 1 talent for each spell thereafter.
That is what balances out the need to make caster checks and also why I don't suggest new spells: I would have to spend hard earned talents to gain those spells.
I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just trying to say that the system is already balanced and that the suggestions would unbalance it.
After writing this, I've come up with this conclusion:
After some review it seems that while some do require a to hit, not all mage spells do.
Also, with the holy wall example, I pointed out that magic has a stronger spell than that while the other two had comparable versions and that, therefore, spirit magic isn't really stronger.
Currently, the two magic types are balanced and equal, the revisions that the others want to put down the pipe would weigh things heavily in favor of mind based magic.
Also, when claiming that spirit magic has unique spells with the potential to be stronger: spirit mages have to spend talents to gain spells.
Without spending any talents (Either to gain spells or wizard specializations given that I'm not sure how you get those) a Mind based caster can cast any of thirty spells while a spirit based caster can't cast any. It costs one talent for the spirit caster to gain their first spell, and 1 talent for each spell thereafter.
That is what balances out the need to make caster checks and also why I don't suggest new spells: I would have to spend hard earned talents to gain those spells.
I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just trying to say that the system is already balanced and that the suggestions would unbalance it.
After writing this, I've come up with this conclusion:
- If the adaptions are made to make caster checks easier for mind based mages and their spells made cheaper, spirit mages should gain all the spells in their specialization for free and not have to spend any talents to do so. Also, the 'strange power' talent which allows spirit mages to gain spells outside of their specialization should be adjusted to not increase the cost of spells gained that way.
- Alternatively, it could be set so that a mage could spend one talent per single spell they wanted to make cheaper and easier to cast.
Re: Suggestions
Ah, well I don't think spells should be made cheaper. So I guess we agree on that. Spirit deserves a few more skills in it, but Magic, as it is, is fairly balanced. To get higher level magic (the nice, powerful stuff) costs talents too.
Ah, well I don't think spells should be made cheaper. So I guess we agree on that. Spirit deserves a few more skills in it, but Magic, as it is, is fairly balanced. To get higher level magic (the nice, powerful stuff) costs talents too.
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Re: Suggestions
Since it seems that Kathy and I are arguing over something we seem to be agreeing on, I'll move to a different subject until thetwo shows back up to defend its suggestions:
Can natural succubus only be taken once? I'm mainly asking since, unlike the other natural talents, it is separate and doesn't have that specification.
Grapple Expert should probably be increased from +8 to +12, currently, to increase grappling by increasing your body score, it costs 8xp to raise body and therefore grappling 8 points. To purchase the Grapple Expert talent also costs 8 xp and therefore is not as valuable as simply increasing your grapple score.
Finally, basing off of the succubi class which wants to deal more pleasure damage if they can: for applying lucky to sexual damage, maybe it could be set that the player specifies whether they want lucky to increase pleasure damage they deal or increase their ability to resist it when they purchase the talent?
Edit: Also, The way it's phrased currently is that, if you are trying to resist pleasure damage you take 10 + d12 - (Opponent's body)/2. Shouldn't that be rephrased to "10 + d12 +/- (Own body)/2"? It doesn't make sense that the stronger your opponent is, the less damage they deal.
Since it seems that Kathy and I are arguing over something we seem to be agreeing on, I'll move to a different subject until thetwo shows back up to defend its suggestions:
Can natural succubus only be taken once? I'm mainly asking since, unlike the other natural talents, it is separate and doesn't have that specification.
Grapple Expert should probably be increased from +8 to +12, currently, to increase grappling by increasing your body score, it costs 8xp to raise body and therefore grappling 8 points. To purchase the Grapple Expert talent also costs 8 xp and therefore is not as valuable as simply increasing your grapple score.
Finally, basing off of the succubi class which wants to deal more pleasure damage if they can: for applying lucky to sexual damage, maybe it could be set that the player specifies whether they want lucky to increase pleasure damage they deal or increase their ability to resist it when they purchase the talent?
Edit: Also, The way it's phrased currently is that, if you are trying to resist pleasure damage you take 10 + d12 - (Opponent's body)/2. Shouldn't that be rephrased to "10 + d12 +/- (Own body)/2"? It doesn't make sense that the stronger your opponent is, the less damage they deal.
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OP
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Re: Suggestions
Well, I picked a bad time to go on vacation.
The only spells that don't require to-hit are the radius ones. So, single targets and "stream" type spells like Shock and the Flamethrower versions of the fire spells still need to make their to-hit.
I'm going to do some edits today, nerfing Blightning a little, upgrading the other Spirit powers, and adding a few spells like people have suggested.
Also, I'm going to change a few Talents, including Natural Succubus and Additional Power, so Pheonix you'll get an extra Talent to put where you wish. The spirit powers are also no longer going to be mutually exclusive, so I can get rid of Strange Power. Greater energy pool is being made a general Talent.
I'm changing many of the Spirit powers to make them less prohibitively expensive and more damaging, and changing the mage spells to 2 x (level - 1) to cast.
I'm changing the sex system again, and this time I'm adding a stat. Meet Resistance: Your highest stat divided by 2.
Now, penetrative sex will be 10 + d12 + (Opp Body/2) - Resistance
Unfortunately, I didn't have enough time to look at the 2 new proposed elements.
Going to change some more stuff later, I have to go do stuff now.
Edits:
@thetwo: Yes, using one pistol counts as 1 one handed weapon.
@Phoenix: I'm putting in a Spirit Talent to replace the Greater energy pool to maintain Spirit characters having significantly greater energy..
Suggestions for fixing things up for better balance are requested.
Well, I picked a bad time to go on vacation.
The only spells that don't require to-hit are the radius ones. So, single targets and "stream" type spells like Shock and the Flamethrower versions of the fire spells still need to make their to-hit.
I'm going to do some edits today, nerfing Blightning a little, upgrading the other Spirit powers, and adding a few spells like people have suggested.
Also, I'm going to change a few Talents, including Natural Succubus and Additional Power, so Pheonix you'll get an extra Talent to put where you wish. The spirit powers are also no longer going to be mutually exclusive, so I can get rid of Strange Power. Greater energy pool is being made a general Talent.
I'm changing many of the Spirit powers to make them less prohibitively expensive and more damaging, and changing the mage spells to 2 x (level - 1) to cast.
I'm changing the sex system again, and this time I'm adding a stat. Meet Resistance: Your highest stat divided by 2.
Now, penetrative sex will be 10 + d12 + (Opp Body/2) - Resistance
Unfortunately, I didn't have enough time to look at the 2 new proposed elements.
Going to change some more stuff later, I have to go do stuff now.
Edits:
@thetwo: Yes, using one pistol counts as 1 one handed weapon.
@Phoenix: I'm putting in a Spirit Talent to replace the Greater energy pool to maintain Spirit characters having significantly greater energy..
Suggestions for fixing things up for better balance are requested.
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Re: Suggestions
Maybe you should make Massive Energy Pool have Greater Energy Poll as a prerequisite?
Maybe you should make Massive Energy Pool have Greater Energy Poll as a prerequisite?
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Re: Suggestions
Ah, that's all settled to my satisfaction, then.
@Pheonix - No hard feelings, I hope. I haven't looked at spirit classes for balance, I'm simply stating my feeling on the mage class with regards to balance against enemies. I only proposed changes, therefore, to the mage class. Others certainly need changes as well.
On further reflection, Tassadar's change makes the most sense. I mean, 5 level 3 spells (or level-3-equivalent spirit uses) before you're unconscious... well even with spells more powerful then attacks and regen between encounters that was going to end poorly when we started running into bosses.
Next up: more suggestions!
1.) Spell scrolls. Quite rare, their making known to only a few in the world and those unwilling to teach. They use a modified (lesser) DC then the original spell and for the actual effect they use some fraction of the Mind value of their creator (the mind value used may be more or less then the user's, and is set when the scroll is written along with the DC). They cost no energy to use, and they aren't subject to the usual restrictions for level 4/5 spells. The writing fades to nothing after one use.
2.) Spirit scrolls. As spell scrolls, but containing written spirit powers. Unlike spell scrolls, they cost the normal energy to use... but their writing doesn't fade after only one use. (It still fades eventually. 5 uses? 10? 20? who knows!).
3.) Magic armor intended for magic users. No speed restrictions or any such, but maybe one that can't be ignored and one with better armor or even dodge bonuses. Obviously rare and balanced by price and more powerful versions of the armors magic users wouldn't consider using.
Scrolls to learn mage spells are pointless and scrolls to learn spirit spells are broken in principle. But limited use scrolls... well, I'd stick them at somewhere around "magic arrow" level.
(These suggestions are responses to my reading of the store's inventory and the seeming lack of anything a mage would be interested in.)
As for a bad time to take a vacation... any time you left we would have gotten bored and argued.
Edit: And I've just noticed that unless you do as pheonix suggested I could choose "Natural Spirit: Massive Energy Pool" instead of "Greater Energy Pool". And since there's not actually any other spirit talent one might want (unless you're a sucubus/spirit), well...
Ah, that's all settled to my satisfaction, then.
@Pheonix - No hard feelings, I hope. I haven't looked at spirit classes for balance, I'm simply stating my feeling on the mage class with regards to balance against enemies. I only proposed changes, therefore, to the mage class. Others certainly need changes as well.
On further reflection, Tassadar's change makes the most sense. I mean, 5 level 3 spells (or level-3-equivalent spirit uses) before you're unconscious... well even with spells more powerful then attacks and regen between encounters that was going to end poorly when we started running into bosses.
Next up: more suggestions!
1.) Spell scrolls. Quite rare, their making known to only a few in the world and those unwilling to teach. They use a modified (lesser) DC then the original spell and for the actual effect they use some fraction of the Mind value of their creator (the mind value used may be more or less then the user's, and is set when the scroll is written along with the DC). They cost no energy to use, and they aren't subject to the usual restrictions for level 4/5 spells. The writing fades to nothing after one use.
2.) Spirit scrolls. As spell scrolls, but containing written spirit powers. Unlike spell scrolls, they cost the normal energy to use... but their writing doesn't fade after only one use. (It still fades eventually. 5 uses? 10? 20? who knows!).
3.) Magic armor intended for magic users. No speed restrictions or any such, but maybe one that can't be ignored and one with better armor or even dodge bonuses. Obviously rare and balanced by price and more powerful versions of the armors magic users wouldn't consider using.
Scrolls to learn mage spells are pointless and scrolls to learn spirit spells are broken in principle. But limited use scrolls... well, I'd stick them at somewhere around "magic arrow" level.
(These suggestions are responses to my reading of the store's inventory and the seeming lack of anything a mage would be interested in.)
As for a bad time to take a vacation... any time you left we would have gotten bored and argued.
Edit: And I've just noticed that unless you do as pheonix suggested I could choose "Natural Spirit: Massive Energy Pool" instead of "Greater Energy Pool". And since there's not actually any other spirit talent one might want (unless you're a sucubus/spirit), well...
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Re: Suggestions
Using fire spells and a 30 Mind caster as a basis for damage...
Level 2 spell: d4 +8 (10.5 average, Spark Shower)
Level 3 spell: 2d8 +15 (24 average, Flame, Burst)
Level 4 spell: 3d12 + 6 + 24 (49.5 average, G. Flame, Burst)
Level 5 spell: 4d20 + 60 (102 average, FotG, Burst)
(Note: I'm choosing the burst form of these spells because it's the higher damage one. The stream form is lower damage, but maintainable.)
We can see that taking talents in magic unlocks far higher damage spells. But at the same time, casting rolls leave a gap in magic users power.
Damage per Energy (DpE)(using the new formula of (Spell level -1) x2 energy)
Level 2 - 5.25 DpE
Level 3 - 6 DpE
Level 4 - 8.25 DpE
Level 5 - 12.75 DpE
My Opinions:
Because Spirit magic requires talents to take, they should have a reasonable amount of damage per energy. But their lack of casting checks gives them an edge in certain types of combat.
Since Spirit Magic doesn't have a casting check, making area of effect spell average 8 DpE seems fair for them. And single target spells deserve around 30% to 40% more damage, which makes around 10.5 to 11 DpE.
This would give Spirit Magic the power of level 4 mind magic attacks, which is the point that you need to take talents to cast them anyhow. But Spirit Users don't have access to the wide array of Mage Spells. Which seems to fix the balance between the classes rather effectively.
Few balance suggestions:
These numbers were closer to fair before the magic cost adjustments, but right now it's just really bad.
((2d6 +1) x X ) Area Effect (8 DpE) and (3d6 x X) Single Target (10.5 DpE)
Suggestions to fix: Don't change a thing.
The low DpE is fair when compared to its ability to steal energy on attacking and gain more power for the caster.
Compare to Shock (Lightning level 3), d8 + 2 + 8, for 4 energy = 3.625 DpE. Again, FAIR considering it's secondary effects.
This is far from a complete spell fix list, but I think this gives enough examples of how to tweak the spells for balance.
Using fire spells and a 30 Mind caster as a basis for damage...
Level 2 spell: d4 +8 (10.5 average, Spark Shower)
Level 3 spell: 2d8 +15 (24 average, Flame, Burst)
Level 4 spell: 3d12 + 6 + 24 (49.5 average, G. Flame, Burst)
Level 5 spell: 4d20 + 60 (102 average, FotG, Burst)
(Note: I'm choosing the burst form of these spells because it's the higher damage one. The stream form is lower damage, but maintainable.)
We can see that taking talents in magic unlocks far higher damage spells. But at the same time, casting rolls leave a gap in magic users power.
Damage per Energy (DpE)(using the new formula of (Spell level -1) x2 energy)
Level 2 - 5.25 DpE
Level 3 - 6 DpE
Level 4 - 8.25 DpE
Level 5 - 12.75 DpE
My Opinions:
Because Spirit magic requires talents to take, they should have a reasonable amount of damage per energy. But their lack of casting checks gives them an edge in certain types of combat.
Since Spirit Magic doesn't have a casting check, making area of effect spell average 8 DpE seems fair for them. And single target spells deserve around 30% to 40% more damage, which makes around 10.5 to 11 DpE.
This would give Spirit Magic the power of level 4 mind magic attacks, which is the point that you need to take talents to cast them anyhow. But Spirit Users don't have access to the wide array of Mage Spells. Which seems to fix the balance between the classes rather effectively.
Few balance suggestions:
8.5 average DpE. A bit weak as a single-target spell. I'd suggest bumping it up to ((4 + d12) x X) or (Xd20) , as it is a single target spell, giving it 10.5 average DpE.
One foe, 8.5 DpE. Area effect, 3.5 DpE.
These numbers were closer to fair before the magic cost adjustments, but right now it's just really bad.
((2d6 +1) x X ) Area Effect (8 DpE) and (3d6 x X) Single Target (10.5 DpE)
3.5 DpE average, with a bonus Spirit damage for it being a melee attack.
Suggestions to fix: Don't change a thing.
The low DpE is fair when compared to its ability to steal energy on attacking and gain more power for the caster.
Compare to Shock (Lightning level 3), d8 + 2 + 8, for 4 energy = 3.625 DpE. Again, FAIR considering it's secondary effects.
This is far from a complete spell fix list, but I think this gives enough examples of how to tweak the spells for balance.
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Re: Suggestions
Although I wouldn't object to powering up my spells, don't forget to take into account that the average spirit mage will have more energy than a mind mage.
Although I wouldn't object to powering up my spells, don't forget to take into account that the average spirit mage will have more energy than a mind mage.