Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion
Zilrax. I know you are regarded, by many here, as a great builder and one who understands D&D throughoutly. I hate to inform you, with all due respect, you are good, but not that good. I don't like making you look stupid, but if you insist. In the very matter you quote, I took the liberty to emphatize the issue you seem to have misread:
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.
Theres a rule that clarifies how you need to have the spell memorized/slot open to make an item that casts or relies on the spell, which a potion qualifies for, even if its not recreating the exact spell, but I'm too lazy to dig it up. While at it, have you considered limited ranger spell slots per day vs average encounters per day? It is my believe that you can't create enough elixirs without a few days prep time until you are quite high level... even if you somehow grab invisibility onto your spell list. And until lvl 17 you need to drink those potions ahead of danger, or waste a combat action to drink the potion, by comparison, the chameleon class bonus is a free reaction to a stealth check that, after a few levels rivals or exceeds the potion... sure, its one shot, but, personal philosophy, I rather have one shot ready to go then one preparation I need to have readied beforehand.
Rogues better at stealth if he's good at nothing else.
You claimed Rangers were best at stealth, I've proven you wrong, also in the example I gave, the rogue still has sneak attack damage and high bluff capabilities by build necessity. You could grab a charisma bonus rather than penalty race for a bit less stealth a lot more bluff, aka more one shot stealth for when you need it and bluff doesn't fall off like stealth does, obviously details pending on DM.
Ranger is comparable to rogue in that he's almost guaranteed not to be noticed AND is good at everything else. For less investment. there are diminishing returns in Stealth so hitting +100 is Better in the sense it's a higher number but it's worthless in the sense that you only needed +40 to beat 95% of enemies anyways. So even in a power build, it's only good in a I want to see how far I can get it, but in using it practically a ranger is better every time.
So now we've gone from 'Ranger is better at stealth!' to 'Ranger isn't better but even if, I don't concede your point and shift my position'
Alright! Lets shift it.
By lvl 1 to 5 my stealth as rogue is better, even if I grant you your elixir later on, however, by lvl 6-7 I dip shadowdancer(too lazy to wait for advanced talents!) and get hips, so we can dismiss lvl 6-17 for being better at stealth as well, now you could dip shadowdancer as ranger too, but only if you nail yourself down on a sub-par ranger build with either a dex-melee build that deals no damage or a ranged build with melee combat feats.. rogue doesn't mind losing a few feats. We now look at high level, 17 to 20, where the Ranger finally equals the Rogues hips(in favoured terrain only) and lets pretend woodland stride can make up for the rogue talents that allow full movement stealth and what have you.
Is the Ranger better? Well.. depends on the ranger build. Straight up ranger certainly not. If you dip something to take advantage of the combat styles, for example dual wield strength crit against a favoured enemy, sure.
More reliable and versatile? Most definitly the rogue. But that argument is moot as we compare different classes that are good at different things. You don't go to rogues to track and deal high damage vs a specific enemy, you don't go to rangers for sneak attacking foes and trap handling. Rogues better in social situations, ranger better in the wildernis, they compliment one another in the long run, even if they can share a lot of the things the other does if they want to.
Frankly, if you want to see the most scary
stealth build, combine Monk, Rogue and shadowdancer with dual wielding. Anything not crit/sneak immune dies before it can take an action and monk mobility counters and compliments all of a stealth rogues weaknesses. Plus you can run around naked and have decent AC. ^^
p.s. edited to clarify and because I came up with a few more issues for perma-guzzling stealth potions beginning with lvl 7.
