Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Paladin is an effective healer because of swift self heals. He's not that great for healing others. Kinda bad at it. Mercies are a big help though. But thats mostly cus healings not very good in combat barring Heal spell. Debuff removal is though so they sorta can. But it's the swift self healing that's the big one.

Ranger IS a frontline class so... I should hope so? I mean they can archer just as well. So can the paladin. I mean, the only classes who can't frontline are primary arcane casters and even that can be circumvented via spells.

We might be looking at diffrent things. I have the book here and the truenamer didn't make his own spells. He had "spells" like the warlock that needed a skillcheck to work that got harder as he leveled and each time he used it in a day, and he could do the reverse of the spell in question. And most of them were lousy versions of spells at higher levels than the wizards had. We are talking about the Tome of Magic right? Cus it seems totally unrelated.

And well by that logic, multiclassing should be removed too. Since it allows a whole series of possibilities. This just makes the process less complicated and generally less punishing.

If it;s a problem we'll manage it but I don't believe it is doomed to failure, given evidently having less options can have a following having less awful options probably will too.

Also, again. Arcane Trickster, not the Rogue. It;s like saying well a commoner can beat a wizard in a fight! *plunks down another Wizard with 1 level in commoner.* The rogue, on it;s own class merits, can;t invalidate the other classes. He at best can pretend to be them with Use Magic Device, for more investment to be sorta good as they are or on par depending if dcs or scaling is involved or not. But they can invalidate him pretty easily.

And given the Arcane Trickster is down several caster levels he's behind the straight wizard in problem solving and what does adding rogue on let him solve that a wizard cannot? Arcane Trickster is definitely a better rogue. It's just it does it by stacking a better class on top of himself.

And semifill, sure. But whats the rogue do no one else does? Whats his niche? What makes him a thing that needs to exist? Because it sounds like his niche is much like the fighter. Thing you dip for multiclass builds. Because that keeps being the answer I;m getting. That or creativity, and my response is what can the rogue do creatively the wizard cannot too? It;s not like a wizard HAS to use magic to solve everything. It's just way more expedient. Meanwhile the rogue 's solution to anything he can;t do is throw money at it and if infinite money was a class feature that probably would work. But it;s not, and anything the rogue can get, the wizard can make at half price. And the Wizard can use UMD too.

CAN a rogue contribute? Sure. Can he beat a wizard in a fight? Sure. Are tiers based entirely on fighting. Nope. Is fighting even a majority of tiers. Nooooope.

Tiers are, here's a gauntlet of challenges. How many with your class alone, can you solve? Cross a mile long chasm. Talk past a guard. Travel to the bottom of the sea. Sabotage a ship's rudder. Fix a wagon. Decipher a riddle in a language you don't speak. Depetrify someone. Destroy a fort. Make a compelled angel not kill you without killing it. Become Immortal. Go to the moon. Remove a cursed object. etc. etc. etc.

It;s not a question of creativity, because how is the rogue going to creative themselves to the moon without inventing rocket science? He'll have to go find someone who can take him there. Or a portal by someone. Things like that. He can;t do it himself without getting the help of or using money to mimic a wizard. But the wizard can do it himself. Greater Teleport, on the moon. Necklace of Adaptation, can survive on moon. Or be a lich. Pretty sure most liches store their phylactery on subterranean moonbases. I mean, why wouldn't you? Way easier than the sun.

I mean, if we're gonna say creativity means rogue = wizard, then by that logic, wizard with creativity is above rogue.

also, well no surprise there, epic handbook was derpy as hell honestly.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

We might be looking at diffrent things. I have the book here and the truenamer didn't make his own spells. He had "spells" like the warlock that needed a skillcheck to work that got harder as he leveled and each time he used it in a day, and he could do the reverse of the spell in question. And most of them were lousy versions of spells at higher levels than the wizards had. We are talking about the Tome of Magic right? Cus it seems totally unrelated.

Thats not how the Truenamer was initially conceived.

Also, again. Arcane Trickster, not the Rogue. It;s like saying well a commoner can beat a wizard in a fight! *plunks down another Wizard with 1 level in commoner.* The rogue, on it;s own class merits, can;t invalidate the other classes. He at best can pretend to be them with Use Magic Device, for more investment to be sorta good as they are or on par depending if dcs or scaling is involved or not. But they can invalidate him pretty easily.

Lets just drop this. I'm getting tired or reiterating the jack of all trades rp argument, we're getting nowhere.

Tiers are, here's a gauntlet of challenges. How many with your class alone, can you solve? Cross a mile long chasm. Talk past a guard. Travel to the bottom of the sea. Sabotage a ship's rudder. Fix a wagon. Decipher a riddle in a language you don't speak. Depetrify someone. Destroy a fort. Make a compelled angel not kill you without killing it. Become Immortal. Go to the moon. Remove a cursed object. etc. etc. etc.

All of them. I'll just require a little bit of time and effort.. As a matter of fact, let me take my pirate rogue as an example and go through them, as she would:

1. Did that, that bridge was a bitch yeah.
2. Did that, two guards even, no problem!
3. Did that, got posessed, long story, wouldn't recommend.
4. Did that,

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5. Ok, didn't do that, wheres the reeling in this thing?
6. Hold on, that statue used to be a hot babe? Hmnn.. perhaps I can steal something to help with that, who around here doesn't like gorgons?
7. Ships don't count? Eh, how flammable is this fortress?
8. I'm great at playing dead. .. bit too great sometimes.
9. Thats the long term plan, aye.
10. Why would I want to? Ain't no treasure there.
11. Yeah yeah, working on that.

I know you rather want to hear answers like:
Fly, charm, iron body and teleport, prestidigitation, mending, stone to flesh, earthquake, circle of protection, pact of revival, repeat spell, resist planar effects plus teleport and break curse, but I like my answers more. Its not about having all the answers, at that point, why don't I just play fanfares and congratulate you as soon as the campaign starts, its about having fun and finding the answers if you don't have 'em yet. Da struggle!

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Yeah these aren't really "rogue can do x" These are, I can make stuff up if the dm let's me. Wizard could do that too and keep the spells so... you know...


It also ignores the fundamental premise. Is, I can do it just very slowly and with tons of wealth, circumstance and yeah definitely took craft carpentry for a bridge and so forth really viable for class balance when the wizard jsut holds up a hand? I mean by that logic there's no class imbalance at all. If the dm fixes it for you. Because that's what you wanna pay 60 dollars for, something you have to fix yourself. Some of those I put there specifically as things the rogue can do of course. Also not all those need a spell. Technically a wizard can do everything you said too.

You can like your answers better, but the fact is the wizard DOES have all the answers. And that's why he's T1. It's not about who can kill who. It's about what feasible answers you can bring. Rogues get a line in the book, paladins get a page, sorcerors get a chapter and the wizards bring the encyclopedia, along with the cleric and such from the library of problem solving.

Honestly it kinda sounds like you'd rather a low magic system, something dnd really isn't or can feasibly be without undermining balance entirely. I heard good things about Iron Kingdoms? I know there's a few others too. the next closest option in pathfinder is playing it C6 mode, where the level cap is 6. Wizards are still pretty crazy but they can't pull off everything either and skills aren't completely invalidated then.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

No, you see, the thing is, you only said that the task was to cross a 1 mile wide chasm. No one said that there hadn't already been a bridge build that lead over it. The bottom of the ocean thing makes for a creepy origin story in the right hands and the whole turning someone turned to stone to flesh again makes for a great adventure hook, unless you have a party pooper that just has the answer already.

I mean by that logic there's no class imbalance at all. If the dm fixes it for you.

See, finally you're getting it.

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Cute. I also didn't say you have arms and legs, so, y'know if we're going to be like that .

And it's something I've heard plenty of before. And my response then is if you have to FIX it to begin with then obviously it is broken, isn't it? And did you not pay money for a game that shouldn't require you to fix it? This isn't even a gray sort of area that needs adjudication. This is, all classes are equal without any help according to the game. Which is categorically false. Else we wouldn't have to fix anything or worry about me casting summon swarm in the other game. Seriously, alchemist fires don't hurt swarms much either. They take 1.5times the splash. So 1. It's pretty dumb.

So if you're paying for a flawed system, wouldn't it be nice if you DIDN'T have to make stuff up so half the classes don't feel bad by comparison? As in the game itself fixed it so you didn't have to? Which would mean making the rogue better. Pathfinders not gonna do it, so we're doing it. That way, you don't have to fix things for them and they can stand equally up around the wizards and such.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Cute. I also didn't say you have arms and legs, so, y'know if we're going to be like that .

Well, then I'm obviously a ghost, so I can float over the chasm too!

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Nah, ghosts have arms and legs in all the pictures. Clearly you are a Voltorb.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Now that I think about it, going by your list a ghost is at least tier 2, only issue is the wagon the rudder and the petrification.

I should make a ghost character.

 

[DaBomb]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Welp, failed the Will save. GG paladin.

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[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Well, ghosts aren't a class, they're a template. Not really a template or race tier. There are some races that are plain better (Human, Dwarf) but race can't really alter challenges too badly overall.

That said if you wanna do something like the ghost, there's the Uncarnate psionic prestige. And an alternate version called the phantom in one of the side books for it that's about psionic necromancy.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Well, ghosts aren't a class, they're a template. Not really a template or race tier. There are some races that are plain better (Human, Dwarf) but race can't really alter challenges too badly overall.

That said if you wanna do something like the ghost, there's the Uncarnate psionic prestige. And an alternate version called the phantom in one of the side books for it that's about psionic necromancy.

Uncarnate psion is for angsty teens.

I just need ghost and anything that gives me the ability to become tangible and at will telekinesis.

But seriously, in no holds barred powerbuilding challenges the words 'ghost' and 'swarm' get thrown a lot. I'm talking challenges like 'get over 50 AC before lvl 10' and somesuch.

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

I'd just play a solar.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

I'd just play a solar.

Even if its an over 20 pb challenge you're throwing away SO much.

 

[DaBomb]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Solar? Are we still talking about pathfinder?

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Yes.

Also not really. A Solar is already a level 20 cleric on crack anyways. They're the strongest monster in the core game by a mile just because they've so many options. And options make the diffrence.

It's part of why a monster like the Pit Fiend is a major threat and the Balor is sort of a joke.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Also not really. A Solar is already a level 20 cleric on crack anyways.

Not really huh.

I could tear a solar apart with half a dozen lvl 20 powerbuilds without trying, their only real danger is the daily wish/Miracle, but many of the nastiest builds have counterspelling methods, that or you slam an antimagic field on them.

Powerbuild challenges usually take a monster at low CR but exeptional utility, example lantern archons(flight, at will teleport, improved initative, immunities), because that directly equals level loss for valuable class levels.

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

You can't counterspell spell-likes, just an fyi.

Also antimagic field is gonna be a godsend for a solar because AMF is self focused. You turn off both your spells and now a solar is beating on you and you have no way to beat his regeneration.

Also generally any Solar fight is against two solars since most of em use Gate with their Miracle.

Mind you, if I wanted to be a dick, I'd pick succubus. So many ways not to have to directly fight anyone if I don't want to.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

You can't counterspell spell-likes, just an fyi.

Also antimagic field is gonna be a godsend for a solar because AMF is self focused. You turn off both your spells and now a solar is beating on you and you have no way to beat his regeneration.

Also generally any Solar fight is against two solars since most of em use Gate with their Miracle.

Mind you, if I wanted to be a dick, I'd pick succubus. So many ways not to have to directly fight anyone if I don't want to.

You can, there is a contradicting statement in the rulebook, but you, of all people, should know that that which can be anti magic shielded can be counterspelled as well:

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That said, if you go with the no counterspell way, fine by me, you wish to.. counter their wish, all you need now is the initative win, theres ways to get that, but not if you clog your build by going 'I'm solar, all I need!'

Wrong. I deal about 100 damage/turn to the solar and I can hit him with an anti magic field without being in it, just need an arrow to hit. If he's in melee I simply timestop. If he's dumb enough to open a gate I'll gladly open one atop of his gate, lets see who survives that rift.

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Succubus is a better choice as you get actual class levels, 13 total, but she's not ideal either.

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

He just walks out of the field then. The field is centered where the arrow lands, so it's centered in his square, not in him. Assuming you hit. There's ways to avoid this.

And yes, I've long railed against Paizo's tendencies to perform FAQRATTAS which often end up making the game worse. the spell likes count as spells for feats and prestiges thing was quite derp. But they've gone back again on that so now you can't again. Don't think it ever undermined the part that said spelllikes may not be countered though. It specifically states that.

Gate on top gate does nothing. you're thinking bag of holding, portable hole which is specific to them. The Summon version of gate is instantaneous anyways.

But this is kinda a silly argument cus it's schrodinger's arcane archer vs that statblock right there.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Why.. do you keep arguing? ^^

He just walks out of the field then. The field is centered where the arrow lands, so it's centered in his square, not in him. Assuming you hit. There's ways to avoid this.

No. Read the ability. The spell is centered where the arrow lands. If that is part of a creature, it's going to move with that creature, since AMF itself is a moveable area spell that follows its center. You now have a solar with none of its abilities, only a statblock, but I'll get to that below.

Gate on top gate does nothing. you're thinking bag of holding, portable hole which is specific to them. The Summon version of gate is instantaneous anyways

Again, you must assume you get to the point of winning initiative first to even be able to gate. now, +9 is neat. Doesn't do crap if I have a divination/Foresight wizard with a greensting scorpion, improved initiative and high dex.

Gate on top gate does nothing. you're thinking bag of holding, portable hole which is specific to them. The Summon version of gate is instantaneous anyways.

Also, no, I'm thinking of an obscure rule introduced to prevent player abuse of gates that I'm too lazy to dig for atm, whatevers, that one is rp fiat anyway.

But this is kinda a silly argument cus it's schrodinger's arcane archer vs that statblock right there.

Who says I'm just an arcane archer. By not going 'lol Solar is an all solver!' I can pick several.. interesting classes Could just be a two level AA dip. Who says I'm human, or even a humanlike race?

Let me explain to you how these challenges work, if I were to go lvl 20 powerbuild vs a single solar, its not like we do this a single time and see who gets lucky, no, we give a certain combat plan, yours is 'miracle into gate for double the solar power' mine is 'timestop into lesser wishes to strip away a few... issues for me(that AC is a bitch) and make sure my anti magic arrow hits, a few quickened lesser spells as buffs and, if I feel like overkill, a wish to get the Solars dancing weapon on my side.'

Or, you know, if I wanted to be a funny guy, I could simply burn two of grade 9's to timestop, gate a solar in, dimensional lock the place, watch the Solar wrestling, defense buff and counterspell escape attempts as necessary.

Then, we assume meeting on neutral ground and the average of 100 games, for example, with a meager +9 initative I win iniative about 75% of times and my actions lead to the solars demise soon after with no chance of retreat, yours in me having to planeshift to the abyss or, depending on what other classes and immunities I have for myself and looking at the solars, a planeshift to an elemental plane where I'm at an advantage, yes, the Solars have two dimensional anchors but a dc 21 will save at high levels is not undoable...