Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

It doesn;t move with the creature for the same reason that if you cast silence on an arrow and shoot it into an creature, the silence doesn't move with the creature. The arrow is destroyed when it hits a target. Now we can argue about whether it works, since the ability doesn't say it works on the person, it just says the area is centered where the arrow lands. If you land Obscuring Mist on someone, the mist doesn't just follow you around. The spell is centered on the intersection.

Particularily since you can't center a spell on a creature according to spell rules. You centre spells on the corner of squares. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection.

What makes Antimagic Field a weird part is that normally it is an emanation from a creature, specifically yourself. so normally it has to emanate from you yourself. But the point of origin from your square would probably then be picked when you cast the spell. But when you fire this off, there's no indication that it let's you cast personal area based spells on enemies, just move where the area of origin is to a diffrent square, using the bow range as the replacement range. Admittedly this is an interpretation as Imbue arrow doesn't say either way.

The reason this is silly is that I have a specific build here aka the solar block, and you have a vague concept that can counter everything because there is nothing set in stone. A version of the old trope of Schrodiner's Wizard, as the Wizard can solve anything if you don't have to state what spells he knows and has prepared. Anything can beat anything if you don't have to show how.

Incidentally all those things you just said, the solar can basically do too. It's not like his cleric spells are mandatory those specific ones, he can change them so I'd use a different list obviously. I'd list it but if we're not comparing builds this is basically two kids yelling back and forth I hit you so I win, no I hit you so I win.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

But when you fire this off, there's no indication that it let's you cast personal area based spells on enemies, just move where the area of origin is to a diffrent square, using the bow range as the replacement range. Admittedly this is an interpretation as Imbue arrow doesn't say either way.

The fact that missing with the arrow means the spell fails seems a clear evidence to the fact that the spell is infact, cast upon the target it hits. Otherwise the rule would clarify that the spell is cast on the impact zone. Now you may argue that was left out to save the DM's headaches with where the arrow flies, but I feel I have a stronger case for my interpretation.

The reason this is silly is that I have a specific build here aka the solar block, and you have a vague concept that can counter everything because there is nothing set in stone. A version of the old trope of Schrodiner's Wizard, as the Wizard can solve anything if you don't have to state what spells he knows and has prepared. Anything can beat anything if you don't have to show how.

If I make it easy on you and don't fill it up with a cr bonus race, Samsaran with mythical bloodline Wizard 5, Arcane Archer 4, Eldritch Knight 10, Ranger 1, fill in special archetypes as required.

I'd list it but if we're not comparing builds this is basically two kids yelling back and forth I hit you so I win, no I hit you so I win.

Its more you say something wrong, I correct you and you keep arguing on and on and shift your position rather than going 'yeah actually, Rangers are not the best at stealth, you are right'

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Incorrect. It is possible to miss the ground in dnd. The floor has an ac of 5. This is shown in the grenade rules. in fact, in 3.5 that "Missing" rule was not included in there at all. You just cast a spell and used the bows range. This implies the missing rule only exists for if you miss the ground. In addition it also doesn't mention this is an attack action as well so there's that too.

Also even if you did hit the creature, where do you hit them? For a huge or larger creature suddenly that matters because if you hit them in the front it sticks out of their front side and may not encompass all of a Huge+ creature. So that becomes a new complicated fun time too.

Of course, this is all an argument that's already happened. Fact is that it's vague and thus the problem. If it didn't have the Missing rule which they tossed in, it wouldn't be an issue.

And well the reason on the rogue was I didn't want to build a ranger but I did do the breakdown and well... It didn't seem to work out quite like you think it did. But if you wanna do that rogue build I'll do the ranger and show you why. Also it's not the same. Your argument is "My build that includes things not rogue is better at stealth proving the rogue itself is better than the base ranger." Where as I was comparing The Rogue against The Ranger. If you wanna do full on just entire builds in general, we can do that but they are not the same thing.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Incorrect. It is possible to miss the ground in dnd. The floor has an ac of 5.

Yes.. yes, an arrow once shot may forever keep flying, without ever hitting the ground, naturally. Are you taking the piss?

Also even if you did hit the creature, where do you hit them? For a huge or larger creature

1. A Solar is not huge or larger without spells.
2.

Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

For someone that loves rules-lawyering so much you aren't that great at it.

"My build that includes things not rogue is better at stealth proving the rogue itself is better than the base ranger." Where as I was comparing The Rogue against The Ranger. If you wanna do full on just entire builds in general, we can do that but they are not the same thing.

But pure rogue is still better than ranger at stealth, even if you forbid me from dipping classes or using rogue archetypes made for stealth, Rogues stil get faster movement stealth and hips at 10, Rangers at 17. Your one saving grace is 'but I can get +10 by brewing and guzzling elixirs!' to which I say.. 'wooww!' Thats really impressive! When exactly are you guzzling those down by the way, all the time or in combat or when you expect combat? Cause I don't think you math'ed this one through in an actual setting. So on lvl 17, 18, 19 and 20 you have +10 more stealth, however, someone told me that...

there are diminishing returns in Stealth so hitting +100 is Better in the sense it's a higher number but it's worthless in the sense that you only needed +40 to beat 95% of enemies anyways. So even in a power build, it's only good in a I want to see how far I can get it, but in using it practically a ranger is better every time.

 

[Corruptivespirit]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Alright Blueslime, It's your new job to tempt Ventus back into that evil 'kill the living and raise them as slaves' megalomaniac that she once was. It's for the good of the campaign and narrative don't you see? We're all rooting for you! Who says the players are the only ones who get corrupted?

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Alright Blueslime, It's your new job to tempt Ventus back into that evil 'kill the living and raise them as slaves' megalomaniac that she once was. It's for the good of the campaign and narrative don't you see? We're all rooting for you! Who says the players are the only ones who get corrupted?

I guess you are team Ventus now. *chuckles*.

 

[Corruptivespirit]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

I guess you are team Ventus now. *chuckles*.

Ehhhh, I'd still like to keep Lior breathing. If only to make her more susceptible to whatever the whatever those main villains are. *swoon* But !EvilVentus does have a certain flair I can deeply appreciate.

Also Xirce trying to remember Lior's religion so she could make a convincing copy was adorable.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Ehhhh, I'd still like to keep Lior breathing. If only to make her more susceptible to whatever the whatever those main villains are. *swoon* But !EvilVentus does have a certain flair I can deeply appreciate.

Also Xirce trying to remember Lior's religion so she could make a convincing copy was adorable.

Less adorable, she can read it out of your mind and do it anyway if you think about it right now.
She's just not the patient infiltrator type usually.

 

[BlueSlime]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Alright Blueslime, It's your new job to tempt Ventus back into that evil 'kill the living and raise them as slaves' megalomaniac that she once was. It's for the good of the campaign and narrative don't you see? We're all rooting for you! Who says the players are the only ones who get corrupted?

Um. Not Dasyra's prime directive.

Dasyra is NG. She's probably going to slide into N, based off of extreme cum drinking lewdness and homicidal feelings towards Ventus' enemies. However, she is still bound to her vow to free Ventus from the curse of the blade and the lich.

She'll definitely encourage a dominatrix style Ventus, but wouldn't work towards evil.

 

[Corruptivespirit]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Um. Not Dasyra's prime directive.

Dasyra is NG. She's probably going to slide into N, based off of extreme cum drinking lewdness and homicidal feelings towards Ventus' enemies. However, she is still bound to her vow to free Ventus from the curse of the blade and the lich.

She'll definitely encourage a dominatrix style Ventus, but wouldn't work towards evil.

I know, Just giving you hard time. You handled that little sub-plot really well btw!

 

[BlueSlime]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Cheers.

I'm pretty easily motivated by strong mistresses who just need love and copious amounts of D/s sex.

Dasyra is going to start acting super lewd now that she's undead. Yes, more lewd than she's been so far.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

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Luckily I like playing .. or being played with by strong loving mistresses and a strong emphasis on D/S.. though I do like a touch of corruptive controlley transformey things, see Dasyras new Dark Ranger apparel. ^^

 

[BlueSlime]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Feel free to have Ventus make Dasyra wear revealing submissive clothing. Lewd Dasyra likes being displayed.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Feel free to have Ventus make Dasyra wear revealing submissive clothing. Lewd Dasyra likes being displayed.

Tried to look for that,

You must be registered to see the links

That said, between drow ranger and better so, Sylvanas can't be too hard.

You must be registered to see the links

 

[BlueSlime]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Heh. Will add a more nekid version of Dasyra once I reply. Tempted to squeak something in tonight just cos elf slut is fun... will see how I go with this dang RL thing...

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Heh. Will add a more nekid version of Dasyra once I reply. Tempted to squeak something in tonight just cos elf slut is fun... will see how I go with this dang RL thing...

Hooray for elf-sluts! Squeak something in and Ventus will help her with squeaking!

Nerf RL.

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

I am not talking about the solar I am talking about what happens if you include the rule that you can stick the arrow into the target because the ability says the spell is centered WHERE it lands. Not on Who it lands. Where. Creatures are not a where. They have a volume though. Meaning if you can hit them, where you hit them can manner. This becomes complicated and finicky, and runs into things like if you hit a huge creature, it can't encompass them entirely and so forth.

And no, if the arrow misses you would use the missing a thrown object rules. The spell doesn't apply either way, as the Imbue Arrow ability says so. It's just like missing a creature doesn't make the arrow blip out of existence, missing the floor does not either. But you can in fact miss where you are aiming on the floor. Which also prevents the spell from working according to the ability. It's a dumb change which just complicated it, but everything implies that you cannot centre the spell on a creature, just a corner the creature happens to occupy, and does not move with the creature.

It does not explicitly state that though, hence why the argument at all. If it was 3.5 then there would not be any issue.

Rangers basically have Camouflage from level 4. Cus spells. Just need to use bluff more.

Also they last an hour. I can just do it soon as things are looking like they'll be dangerous ahead or I need it then. But I only need them until I've Greater Shadow anyways. But I really don;t need to. Heck, technically I don't need more than one rank in Stealth anyways if I really don;t want to nowadays. I can just use my BaB for it. I just invest 10 to get the full bonus out of Skill focus.

Also I can move at full speed, I just take a -5 to it, you don't. But at the numbers we're running around at, that's not really that big a penalty.

But we can go build agnostic about it. No items, no stats just class features and spells and ranks. So from the start, no matter what we both have the same amount of ranks and class skill bonus. So thats always going to be even.

You can get camouflage in terrains with foliage, so Forest, Jungle, Plains, certain Planes, and probably another. Terrain Mastery gets you +2 from various terrains but you can;t stack em. Favored Terrain can get you another +2 to one of them. You get HIPS at 10 in the same terrain as Favored Terrain. One talent will have to be on Fast Stealth since you brought it up. So +8 assuming all these are on forest or something.

Meanwhile, Ranger has Favored Terrains too. And spells

They;re identical at level 1.
Level 2, Rogue is ahead in the specific terrains, or with Fast Stealth, moves faster than the Ranger.
3, Ranger gets favored terrain so is either the same or behind. Ahead in numbers if fast stealth but slower still.
At 4, Rogue gets +6 or +2 or +4 in one terrain and move fast. Possibly all if are taking Extra Rogue Talent. The Ranger has spells, getting Blend, allowing Camouflage effectively and +4 stealth.
5, Rogue stays the same, Ranger gets another spell per day, giving a few choices. Longstrider increases speed. Negate Aroma means you can't be caught out by things with scent. Hide from Animals can be helpful if it's bats or something.
6, Rogue get's another terrain, getting +2 in a diffrent one or +2 in the same, hopping it up to +8. Ranger stays the same.
7, Ranger gets more spells, adding Chameleon Stride, getting another +4 as long as you're not adjacent to the person making the perception check. Rogues the same.
8, rogue can get another terrain. Ranger gets another terrain and boosts one to +4.
9, Rogue stays the same. Ranger gets another spell, probably Visualization of the Body, giving +5 to dex based skill checks.
10, Rogue gets Hide in Plain sight, Ranger gets third level spells. Could do Greater Chameleon Stride to give HIPS to a group. Or Quieting Weapons to make all your attacks completely silent, and possibly make anyone hit unable to make noise above a whisper.
11, Rogues the same. Ranger gets another spell per day.
12, Rogue can get another terrain. Ranger gets Camouflage, letting them hide in any favored terrain without needing concealment.
13, Ranger gets another Favored Terrain, one hitting +6, rest at +4 and +2. They also have 4th levels, allowing them to take Terrain Bond, letting them treat any terrain as their best favored terrain. Other options include Nondetection to avoid tracking spells, or Cloud Shape in certain terrains to pretend to be a cloud. Rogues about the same. They could always skip a few terrains to pick up Ki Pool and then the Invisibility trick, though if See Invisibility is active it could reveal you so it;s not 100% foolproof, though it doesn't come up too often since you can;t make potions of See Invisibility.
14-17 things don;t change much. Ranger picks up more spells per day, rogue picks up more terrains. At 17 Ranger get's his HiPS. And so on.

So by 20, both classes have +23 at base. Rogue has +8 in one Terrain and +2 in all others, so 25 or 31 depending. Possibly 29. If he has invisibility he can have 45 or 51 when moving and no see invis, or 65/71 if you're holding completly still.

Ranger has +23. They've effectively +8 in every terrain due to Terrain Bond, so 31. Chameleon and Blend stack, so 39 as long as there's 5 feet between us. Visualization gives +5 for 44. or 40 at adjacent. So it boils down entirely to Invisibility. If the Rogue has Invisibility and the enemy doesn't have See Invisibility, rogue wins. If they do, or the rogue does not, Ranger wins. Also the Ranger can hide from detect spells and other divinations with Nondetection, whereas the rogue cannot. The rogue moves faster without a penalty, but the Ranger moves faster in general at a penalty.

One thing that's worth noting is that the Rogue has to kinda put a lot of eggs in this basket where the Ranger really only has to invest his spells.

If we get equipment into it, Ranger can make his own so has a discount. Everything else, feats and whatnot the Ranger can do too without really compromising their combat ability too much since they've got their bonus feats. Ranger also can make better use of the Owl Style feats, letting them use their base attack bonus as their skill rank number for Stealth, Acrobatics and Fly, which with a higher BaB they can get more use out of, though the rogue can use the able to charge while stealthing a bit better since they do it at -10 and not -15.

So there it is. I spent way too much time doing this but I ALSO built a character if you want to do the build thing. I used 15 pointbuy. The number on that one came out to +79 without using invisibility. Using invisibility potions could get 99/119, though at level 20 you can't rely on invisibility too much. All this without compromising the combat abilities of the character overly much. Course, you could do basically the same feat build, though you;d need to use more on Two-Weapon than I did since you don;t get them for free or to ignore prerequisites.

This doesn;t account for more circumstantial situations, like situations where woodland stride matters, or magic traps or whatnot. But to say the rogues best at stealth... Far as I can tell, the base rogue does not win unless he cribs invisibility off of Ninja and loses when that is countered. He also can be picked out by things like Detect Magic and Locate Creature and so forth. He also struggles in terrains without foliage. There are times the Rogue is ahead but the ranger pulls out ahead around the same time HiPS comes around.

I mean I can do less, easy. But if all it costs me is a few spells to keep ahead, and I can match equipment at half the cost... I'm not seeing the rogues big advantage in the longrun. But I'd love to see the bits that I'm missing.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Zilrax, I literally stopped caring, I will point out that apparently you have a ranger that needs to have high social skills in bluff, have high craft skills in int, have high hiding skills in dex, and apparently also has decent spellcasting in wis and I assume isn't completely useless in combat so also aims for a composite bow with moderate str modifier, and I am sure you want to dumpstat cons, so please, go bullshit someone else who doesn't know what MAD stands for. I'm done discussing this, you are incapable of budging on a point, feel free to dismiss mine again when I restress that by only using Dex and Cha on a rogue archetype I can have all you have and be better at it.. sans item crafting and spellcasting and wildernis survival, its almost as if you are forcefully trying to compare two classes that are different and claim one must be better based on your own bias.

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

You don't need Craft skill to make magic items, only spellcraft. Unless you can't cast spells in the least. Then you do. And two feats. To make only specific types of items, not even getting the full use of the item feats quite often. As in, if you have craft swords you need Master Craftsman, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and you may only make magic swords. No axes, no armor, just swords.

And every martial is MAD. The only classes not MAD are pure casters. Hell, you say you need just dex and cha but the archetype needed wis. And everyone but the paladin needs con.

Look, you keep making vague assertions with nothing behind them to show your work. I've backed mine up, did the breakdown, did the math. Even built a character. If you wanna drop it, fine. But I know what a rogue can and cannot do because I've played them. And I've played with them. And I've played other classes who can do things just like them. Call it bias if you like, I call it experience. I might not have as much playing make random monster absurd and other theorycraft sort of deals, but I've done the baseline and I've been through this argument, watched it play out time and time again. And if you're going to just dismiss my work with a handwave, well... Guess we've got nothing to talk about. Pity, I;d have liked to see how you were getting these numbers but so it goes.

 

[DaBomb]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Are you guys waiting on a response from me?