Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

[DaBomb]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Devotion to a single cause and little need for versatility in their usual upbringing, a noble backround requiering little reason to adapt and innovate.

Or as a paladin player put it, you only need one skill, Diplomacy to calm evildoers.

Perception? You got detect evil. Sense motive? You got Detect evil. They evil, they lying. Stealth? A truly paladin does not sneak around, a true paladins armor sparkles so much with holy radiance even the idea of sneaking is preposterous.

Alright, but i'm a soldier of the temple, so I should have Knowledge Religion. I should be knowledgeable of the creatures I will frequently kill, so I should have Knowledge Planes. I am somewhat of a knight, so I should have knowledge nobility. I should be skilled in persuasion, so I should have diplomacy. I should be able to see through people's bullshit, so I should have sense motive. I should be able to ride my mount, so I should be skilled in Ride. I will most likely need to cure afflictions, so I should have Heal. And I probably had a background before this, so I should have Profession of Craft.

The Paladin only has two skill points per level. That means they can either choose only a few of these to be great at, or be okayish at all of them. There's no reason why a martial character should have only 2 skill points per level.

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

I agree with this. It's one of the reasons the fighter isn't even that useful for world building. there's so many things needed to be a good guard and a fighter can't really get enough points to really do it. A barbarian does it better than them.

I generally spread points around a lot since you don't need to max every skill. ride I only max if I am going full mounted combat. Enough to beat the control mount dc no matter what is enough otherwise. Likewise, Heal you only really need enough to hit certain static dcs most the time. It's a vastly underpowered skill compared to magic, only helpful in the lowest levels.

But yeah, it really struggles a fair bit for the martials who most can't really afford much into int without crippling themselves in more relevant stats. The MAD is real.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

I should have Knowledge Religion.

Circumstantial bonus to your own faith. Other faiths don't matter.

I should be knowledgeable of the creatures I will frequently kill, so I should have Knowledge Planes.

You frequently kill evil outsiders? Not a standard adventure. You kill evil. You have detect evil. To better kill evil you have smite evil.

I am somewhat of a knight, so I should have knowledge nobility.

A true paladin would be humble. Their calling of defeating evil is beyond rank or station.

I should be skilled in persuasion, so I should have diplomacy

Agreed.

I should be able to see through people's bullshit, so I should have sense motive. I should be able to ride my mount, so I should be skilled in Ride.

Either of those should be your other skill, but as I said. Detect evil will see through all the bullshit!

I will most likely need to cure afflictions, so I should have Heal.

You misspelled Lay on hands.

And I probably had a background before this, so I should have Profession of Craft.

Aaaah, you are not looking for a pure paladin, raised in faith and devotion their entire lifes, in that case you want to start with a multiclass in rogue(if social) or ranger (if wild child) to depict a variety of upbringings skill wise.

Seriously, to play a proper paladin, either invert the trope or just roll with it. Accept this stick and bottle of lube for your bottom, because if you overplay the stiffness it goes from meh to super cool, alternatively play a holy warrior on mission X.

 

[DaBomb]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Yes, because a class should be only one trope of person.

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Paladins are a bit finicky to display as other things due to their code. And in Pathfinder they removed a single word that made it even worse.

It used to say, Grossly Violates Their Code. Now it just says violates. So you have no freedom to try and do things in push comes to shove situations. Used to be if you're hiding refugees and an outnumbering force of guards comes by and asks you directly are the refugees in there? You can't say no or you fall. If you say yes you let innocent people die or worse. It's a terrible thing and makes it rather difficult to do good in all but the narrowest of ways.

I personally just put the word Grossly back in.

But yeah, more skills for poor 2+martials. It's fine on wizards, they don't need it. but the fighter and paladin get a short stick for no good reason. Also, clerics, though I can let that slide a bit more cus ridiculous spells anyways.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Yes, because a class should be only one trope of person.

I'm not the one arguing how paladins should be, I'm the one presenting several options. You seem to want to define Paladins as being capable of all these things, what if I wanted a paladin thats equinophobic and not talented as a healer? Scarcity begets creativity.

Just my suggestion as you seem not content. You wouldn't believe the amount of fun I had with a healer that only healed, or a barbarian that did nothing but pick fights.

What you do and how you do it doesn't matter, as long as its enjoyable to rp and rp with.

It used to say, Grossly Violates Their Code. Now it just says violates.

Code violations are still up for the DM. You notice Asheroth hasn't violated despite not rpying to try and redeem either Xirce or Ventus much.

but the fighter and paladin get a short stick for no good reason

Barbarian was intended to be possible with below 10 int, while a fighter invests their learning in techniques, a paladin in being shiny.

 

[DaBomb]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

I'm not the one arguing how paladins should be, I'm the one presenting several options. You seem to want to define Paladins as being capable of all these things, what if I wanted a paladin thats equinophobic and not talented as a healer? Scarcity begets creativity.

Just my suggestion as you seem not content. You wouldn't believe the amount of fun I had with a healer that only healed, or a barbarian that did nothing but pick fights.

What you do and how you do it doesn't matter, as long as its enjoyable to rp and rp with.



Code violations are still up for the DM. You notice Asheroth hasn't violated despite not rpying to try and redeem either Xirce or Ventus much.



Barbarian was intended to be possible with below 10 int, while a fighter invests their learning in techniques, a paladin in being shiny.

I didn't realize that was what you were trying to do, it seemed to me that you were arguing that the Paladin shouldn't get ore skills because of those reasons. My apologies.

And I haven't done anything with them yet, because I have had little chance too. I'm not going to just barge down their door saying, "Are you aware of the loving embrace of Iomedae?"

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Technically redemption isn't even in the paladin's code. The code ding woulda been on not helping Kaila who was in need, since cake wasn't going to be used towards chaotic or evil ends. But that was already put there. Either way I'm not gonna complain about the code being not super derp.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

They shouldn't get more skills because their narrative concept mandates a narrow character specialization.

And I haven't done anything with them yet...

Exactly. You are following people that are evil, not of your own accord, but if you invest no effort(mind you, effort here means that it is up to you to create opportunities, rather than wait for them) into at least learning if they can be redeemed, that will lead to a codebreak in due time, likely rped out as not an aprupt 'boom you fall!' but along the way suddenly your powers might begin to fail you.

Technically redemption isn't even in the paladin's code.

Bullshit. Redemption is step and goal one, destruction only the last resort.

 

[DaBomb]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

I was waiting for Ventus to tell her story, but she walked away before telling it, so I decided to try and investigate myself.

Which I did, and I now know her religion. I'd love to know more about her, when I get the chance to.

And Redemption is pretty much the highlight of my job. I mean, I took the Redemption Domain.

And I agree with you on the skills, it should be narrow. But 2 isn't narrow, it's almost non-existant. I consider 4 narrow, even more so, considering you can't invest INT into a paladin without lowering the stats you need or dumping the stats you don't need, hard.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

I was waiting for Ventus to tell her story, but she walked away before telling it, so I decided to try and investigate myself.

Good, Ventus is build to be ashamed of her past and darker secrets. Dasyra pulled out a lot of them, but also dropped in alignment for it(and giving in to undead lusts). Mixed sucess alignment wise, at best. ^^

And Redemption is pretty much the highlight of my job. I mean, I took the Redemption Domain.

Ventus can't easily go to good alignment, but moving her form LE to LN is far from impossible and would put your plans hand in hand with Dasyras. You two should chat and hang. on.. some sort of quest. After the naughties.

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Yeah I agree it should be. But it's not in the code:

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see atonement), as appropriate.

Incidentally Knowledge Local or Nobility would be useful to know who is or is not legitimate authority.

In any case, SHOULD Redemption be on there? I'd say so. Is it? It is not.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

*snip*

In any case, SHOULD Redemption be on there? I'd say so. Is it? It is not.

Read again. Its on there already:

help those in need

Look at the world from a truly good characters perspective, who needs aid more than those that have been caused so much pain they'd cause pain to others. I've seen a beautiful rp scene where a paladin broke into tears after they had to slay rather than being able to redeem a Blackguard.

*chuckles* My strongest alignment is CG, so I get good and messing with the rules, but I know an excellent paladin player that'd put it similiarly.

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Messing with the rules is not a paladin thing unless they are really bad rules, and then they work to change the rules .

In any case it's not there, but you can certainly include it. It is in some of the specific dieties codes for paladins/antipaladins. Some actively are against it though like Torag, the Dwarven god of strategy and defense.

Iomedae's specific code says:

- I will learn the weight of my sword. Without my heart to guide it, it is worthless-my strength is not is my sword, but in my heart. If I lose my sword, I have lost a tool. If I betray my heart, I have died.
-I will have faith in the Inheritor. I will channel her strength through my body. I will shine in her legion, and i will not tarnish her glory through base actions.
-I am the first into battle, and the last to leave it.
-I will not be taken prisoner by my free will.
-I will not surrender those under my command.
-I will never abandon a companion, though I will honor sacrifice freely given.
-I will guard the honor of my fellows, both thought and deed, and I will have faith in them.
-When in doubt, I may force my enemies to surrender, but I am responsible for their lives.
-I will never refuse a challenge from an equal.
-I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest.
-I will suffer death before dishonor.
-I will be temperate in my actions and moderate in my behavior.
-I will strive to emulate Iomedae's perfection.

Which sorta implies redemption? It's no Sarenrae though who is specifically the goddess of Redemption. Also Iomedae is not very personable as a person I add. I had to run her canonically once. She's good aligned but she's alot like Ventus. A commander who's good at that but doesn't really have anything outside of it.

Course that encounter was stupidly written, holy fuck. I'd rather not get into it but they somehow made Nocticula more sympathetic and likable than a LG diety. Which admittedly is a thing, but I mean this went waaaay beyond what shoulda been there. I had to run it entirely differently.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

I interprete it to be there. I've given my reasoning. You can keep arguing with me, but it'd be easier if you respected my DM judgement.

Very warlike dogma though yes, Elena Faith-hold approves.

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

I'm not arguing with you. I'm just saying what it is in written. Not the same as arguing that it shouldn't be there and thus you deciding to add it is wrong . I'm of the opinion it should be there straight out in the start. Something like what Sarenrae's says on the topic.

• I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my
actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will
redeem them by the sword.

Which basically is a flowery way of saying redeem if you can and if you can't, well, they can go in the jail/coffin.

As opposed to Shelyn the love goddess which says:

I accept surrender if my opponent can be redeemed and I never assume that they cannot be. All things that live love beauty, and I will show beauty's answer to them.

Which strikes me as more untenable overall but eh? Either way it should have something on the topic. Then again, you've got Torag.

Against my people’s enemies, I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except when strategy warrants. I will defeat them, yet even in the direst struggle, I will act in a way that brings honor to Torag.

So maybe it makes sense it's not hardlined into the code. Either way, doesn't bother me any. I mean Torag's code let's his paladins lie if it's to deceive enemies of the people so...

 

[BlueSlime]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Dasyra wanted to know more about Ventus too. If Ash wants, we can be on the path to being happy and content undead members of a non evil Ventus harem together.

 

[Corruptivespirit]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Kaila--> Lior --> Ash --> Lior --> Kaila

I just did the math and unless Kaila gives an order to Asheroth continuing the cycle Lior's giving and receiving twice the number of orders as the others...

Speaking of, Tag to Zilrax!

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Yeah, you are, much to Kaila's amusement. That said, bit of option paralysis. I'm thinking summoning a demonic wolf pack to fuck Lior in the tits and her rear holes and has to service them til they finish using her. Though still deciding. Lotta options. Shame I;m not level 9, I could bring more interesting fare.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

I'm not arguing with you.

Yep you are not, because I poked said paladin player and in the half a dozen years I know them I've not seen anyone play palas like they do. Bonus points, even their skype handle sounds like a pala. :

sepherus: Agreed. Paladin shouldnt really derive pleasure from punishing evildoers. If he makes an act out of it, its only to forewarn the others. On the inside all evil slain is a soul lost to the cause

sepherus: But not retribution at all costs. Just like with spreading disease, a paladin is the healer deciding if the patient can recover or is he only threat to the health of community that is better dead than suffering without hope. Only then can the blade of justice fall in deathblow, without joy but without anxiety either. Doing what must be done for those who still can be saved

I just did the math and unless Kaila gives an order to Asheroth continuing the cycle Lior's giving and receiving twice the number of orders as the others...

That awkward moment when you ask for fairness in a rule of demonic games.