What is Patreon doing?

[HentaiWriter]

Well, whatever 50 Shades of Grey started as, it ended up exploring some themes which most people are not familiar with. Hence why it ended up being classed as Erotica, because it is enlightening people about the BDSM scene, and more importantly exploring issues regarding consent.

Except the problem is that it's enlightening people in a very incorrect way, using factually bad examples and painting the BDSM community in a light that is pretty inaccurate.
50 Shades of Grey is to BDSM what early Folgers ads were to a woman's role in a relationship, so to speak, and that's why people are angry at the movie and why it comes off as pornography rather than an actually legitimate BDSM relationship to anyone who actually is in the BDSM community to any degree.

It would be like if someone made a documentary on cybersecurity and portrayed hackers as this;

Last I checked Future Fragment's is not there (although this was a while ago) - the entire thing where you create a fairly contrived setup to justify a large number of horny people would appear to put it quite firmly in the porn category rather than the erotica category, especially given apparent fallacies in said setup.

Yeah, definitely check out the 027F demo link in my signature - it's basically a different game. Full english voice acting across 40 characters between 15 or so AAA/hollywood VA's in the demo (full game will be 150+ characters across 40+ VAs), more storyline paths and choices (that actually matter) than Detroit: Beyond Human that'll be in the full game with the demo already having over 100 of them, 36+ endings with only a few being sex related, and you can go the entire level without seeing a single sex scene or reference to sex. The setup as to why people are horny is actually pretty well fleshed out too, and gives a lot of logical reasons, but again if you've only played the much earlier version I can see why you'd think that.

It appears that your primary concern is the sexual content. And do note that I'm not specifying what your actual primary concern is - just how it appears, because that's how you get judged on what you are. There's no use saying "I'm making erotica" if everyone thinks you're making porn.

Right, which is why I referenced the reviews; so far something like 90-95% of the reviews for the game across all sites and/or poll results have said that they consider the storyline and gameplay of the game to more of a driving force as to why they're playing the game than the adult content is. So at least with Future Fragments, the majority of people don't see it as porn to just get off to; they actually (in their own words) are enjoying it for the story and gameplay first, porn second, and I'm sure there's other western h-games out there too that have that same sort of reception.

That said, I didn't mean to derail the topic, I just wanted to post that defense of Future Fragments given the callout it got and the misunderstanding of what the content is in the game by the original person I was replying to, so I don't want to derail the topic anymore towards my game if possible, since I've said about all I can say in defense of it/proof that it's okay with the current guidelines, as the other games are as well.

More problematically, for long-form content (such as games) it's probably way outside of the scope of the reviewers on Patreon to be able to determine if something is erotica or pornography. The danger is that if a significant number of creators do confuse the two, and this becomes broadly apparent, then Patreon would likely have to ban both categories to ensure their platform remains pornography free.

A lot of Patreon games have been played in full by people working there, and I know this because some of the creators have came back after getting suspended to have them tell the creators that specific events, 10-20+ hours into the game are what's getting them hit, so they're definitely playing all the way through.

That said, the confusion/problem isn't "erotica" or "pornography", the problem is whether it's real life or illustrated content. If it's illustrated content, then it flies no matter what the focus is (as long as it's not bestiality or underage or glorifying non-con/incest), given the industry standard of separating illustrated and non-illustrated content. This separation can be seen in generally any site dealing with adult content in America.

 

[habisain]

Actually, I checked the description on Patreon just before I posted to make sure my understanding of the basic setup was right; If that's out of date as well, you probably want to change that pretty sharpish, although in the interests of not hijacking the thread much further we should probably take this to PM if you want to discus it further. In any case, my current understanding of what Future Fragments is aspiring to be is "a good game which comes with some good pornography, with a high level of interconnectedness". This is certainly a step up from most games in this category which I would categorise as "mediocre/bad games which come with some good pornography". But neither of these equals erotica.

It is very interesting that Patreon is actually doing full reviews of long form content. That being said, I can't imagine that this is a sustainable thing to do for the company (just in terms of amount of effort required), so I imagine that this is likely something that will change as the company scales up. Or alternatively, Patreon can just hire people who are likely to play these games in their free time anyway.

(And regarding 50 Shades, I never said it was a good introduction to the BDSM scene! However, it does make people aware of it, and the more important thing about 50 Shades and it's position as erotica is the bits that explore consent.)

 

[HentaiWriter]

Actually, I checked the description on Patreon just before I posted to make sure my understanding of the basic setup was right... ...but neither of these equals erotica.

The last thing I'll say about it here, just to clarify these two things, because it's not like everyone comes from Patreon to here, is that the storyline-based information on the front page is almost universally untrue to various degrees, much in the same way that Braid is about "a guy going off to save a princess". The actual content the game has that's listed on the Patreon front-page, that's all truth, but one of the aspects of my games is that they all come from an "unreliable narrator" trope standpoint.
If you do get the chance to try the demo, given you definitely have a good head on your shoulders, you'll probably quickly figure out from the cutscenes/choices you get and such that what i'm saying the game is and what the game actually is are two different things.

It is very interesting that Patreon is actually doing full reviews of long form content. That being said, I can't imagine that this is a sustainable thing to do for the company (just in terms of amount of effort required), so I imagine that this is likely something that will change as the company scales up. Or alternatively, Patreon can just hire people who are likely to play these games in their free time anyway.

Patreon recently put that age gate thing in, and I think that's one of many signs that they're going the route of catering to adult games to some degree while keeping the broader image of Patreon SFW-related, so they might just hire people to play these games to check them, sort of like a QA team in a games studio.

the more important thing about 50 Shades and it's position as erotica is the bits that explore consent.

Yeah, those are the parts that most people have trouble with. To quote the wikipedia article on it;

"Fifty Shades of Grey has attracted criticism due to its depictions of

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, with some BDSM participants stating that the book confuses BDSM with abuse and presents it as a pathology to be overcome, as well as showing incorrect and possibly dangerous BDSM techniques."

"Several critics and scientists have expressed concern that the nature of the main couple's relationship is not

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at all, but rather is characteristic of an abusive relationship. In 2013, social scientist Professor Amy E. Bonomi published a study wherein the books were read by multiple professionals and assessed for characteristics of

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, or IPV, using the

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standards for emotional abuse and sexual violence. The study found that nearly every interaction between Ana and Christian was emotionally abusive in nature, including stalking, intimidation, and isolation. The study group also observed pervasive sexual violence within the CDC's definition, including Christian's use of alcohol to circumvent Ana's ability to consent, and that Ana exhibits classic signs of an abused woman, including constant perceived threat, stressful managing, and altered identity."

That all said, I think we've derailed pretty hard with this conversation too haha, so I'll just bow out of the topic in general unless someone asks me something to prevent derailing it anymore.

 

[habisain]

Yeah, those are the parts that most people have trouble with. To quote the wikipedia article on it;

That's kind of what I was going for as well i.e. consent as it pertains to an abusive or controlling relationship. Unfortunately, those are all too common in the real world.

Spoiler: About the ending of 50 Shades of Grey

The important thing in 50 Shades is that in the end, the protagonist recognises the controlling nature of the relationship and leaves. That's the most important thing 50 Shades has to say on the subject.

Following HentaiWriter's lead and bowing out at least this aspect of the discussion.

 

[HentaiWriter]

That's kind of what I was going for as well i.e. consent as it pertains to an abusive or controlling relationship. Unfortunately, those are all too common in the real world.

Spoiler: About the ending of 50 Shades of Grey

The important thing in 50 Shades is that in the end, the protagonist recognises the controlling nature of the relationship and leaves. That's the most important thing 50 Shades has to say on the subject.

Ah, okay, I get what you were going for there, then.

To get things back on topic, Patreon added Google Analytics to the "about" pages the other day; I don't think this was something that was there until recently, but I'm surprised they didn't make some sort of mention about this, or at least they didn't to my knowledge. For everyone who wanted analytics though, that's in now!

EDIT: And this just came out, too!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1013845968888844288

 

[Turrican]

Sorry again I still know that what I have set is about patreon, but I want a last question about what's happening on my continent.
The MEPs say that cloud sites do not convene (like hosting, sharing etc ...) like these: MEGA, Uploaded.net, Dropbox, GoogleDrive, Rapidgator etc ... are they ok?
Please answer me right away, at least someone who knows the situation in Europe, even if thanks to wikipedia Italy, the European Parliament split now and the vote is uncertain, but they are in tension say only for the big platforms, do not coivolgono the rest, but I do not believe.

Please, you must understand how I feel I am heavy.

 

[Bryanis]

First the law will have to pass - it's still months away and can change.

Afterward... well, it will really depend on 1) the law content
2) how they plan to enforce it toward site / cie operating from outside of Europe
3) the will to really enforce it.

From experience with anti piracy & such law, it's usually primary focused on movie / music sharing (and not H movie I mean), so the first to be attacked if the law is hard and really enforced are the site widely use to illegally share music & movie.

And considering that cloud site CAN'T check every uploaded file to make sure the uploader has the copyright, it seem to me they will have 3 choice (well, making it at the simplest) -
a) Close
b) Only allow download from your own account (to try to avoid the responsibility)
c) Stop offering service to EU country


Although at the moment it's lot of guess for everyone...

 

[Turrican]

First the law will have to pass - it's still months away and can change.

Afterward... well, it will really depend on 1) the law content
2) how they plan to enforce it toward site / cie operating from outside of Europe
3) the will to really enforce it.

From experience with anti piracy & such law, it's usually primary focused on movie / music sharing (and not H movie I mean), so the first to be attacked if the law is hard and really enforced are the site widely use to illegally share music & movie.

And considering that cloud site CAN'T check every uploaded file to make sure the uploader has the copyright, it seem to me they will have 3 choice (well, making it at the simplest) -
a) Close
b) Only allow download from your own account (to try to avoid the responsibility)
c) Stop offering service to EU country


Although at the moment it's lot of guess for everyone...

I do not have to worry about it then?

 

[JustLurksHere]

I do not have to worry about it then?

Well, "First they came ...", so it depends...
Will you die on your own, before they come for you or will you try to join them instead ?

 

[Turrican]

Well, "First they came ...", so it depends...
Will you die on your own, before they come for you or will you try to join them instead ?

Sorry I did not understand what you mean.

 

[JustLurksHere]

The money that drives the process comes from the same source, whether in USA or in EU, so regardless where you live (as long as it's somewhere in the so-called Western world), so the erosion will carry on and will eventually get you unless you die before it concludes.

It's not a flaw of the system that can be corrected, it's one of the system's pillars.

 

[habisain]

Just to put this to bed:

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. Ultimately, the EU parliament is a pretty sensible organisation. So there you go.

 

[JustLurksHere]

Just to put this to bed:

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.

...you forgot to add "...this time."
Just like with democracy, which relies on people caring not only about their own business, but also about groups they don't belong to, with the second part being almost systemically eroded (see migrant crisis in Europe and Trump), it's only a matter of finding a proper 9/11 to push this through in some form. Just like awhile back "white man's burden" came about, this too will eventually be excused.

Ultimately, the EU parliament is a pretty sensible organisation.

...just like American Congress (like in SESTA case).
Oh, wait, was that meant to be serious ?

 

[Turrican]

I'm happy, but we're down to earth now, in late September an amendment, one thing is sure will not make this change rejected (especially the hated articles 11 and 13), no filter (it makes no sense to re-propose if it is discarded by the people) and a more humane reform (without machines), so happy but watch out those who want revenge will then still noose at the colo, but these 2 months the European pololo, wikipedia, MEGA, google and others, this time, will be organized, to say right the protection of authors but NO TO A CENSOR FILTER.

 

[DbatRT]

I do not quite understand the current situation.
If UnidentifiedSFM and Animo closed all public content on their pages, then why did they come under attack again?
Does this mean that the only solution to the situation for them is to stop creating prohibited content?
That is, any violence, bestiality, and so on in their work?
Regardless of how they hide it?

Who can explain this point?

Thank you in advance.

P.S Sorry for my english.

 

[habisain]

The Patreon rules are pretty clear - you can't use Patreon to fund prohibited content on the site, and they're also pretty clear that you can't use Patreon to maintain a website containing prohibited content. UnidentifiedSFM etc. were always breaking the rules - they just hadn't been caught. As I've said before, Patreon recently expanded the size of their review teams, and now they've got the workforce to actually enforce their rules.

So yeah: if a creator is using Patreon to fund stuff that breaks the Patreon rules, no matter how you "hide" it, they will be looking to kick that creator off. However, I will point out that it's not a blanket ban on any of the material mentioned - it's a ban on the glorification of sexual violence. So anything that depicts rape/bestiality/etc as a good thing, or without context, or just for the purposes of being porn, is indeed prohibited. However, if there is a bit more nuance to the depiction of rape/bestiality/etc, or it is depicted as a bad thing, than that it may not be prohibited - hence why some things which include rape or sexual violence will still be on Patreon.

 

[MrMe]

To be honest Patreon didn't have any problems until Paypal was implemented then suddenly everything went to hell. Paypal has a NO porn or adult stance so Patreon had to suddenly turn into a "clean" website. But to be fair they only seem to be attacking those with "public" pics and demos as to keep underage persons from seeing it. (To appease Paypal I suppose.)

The ironic thing is that patreon became popular with hentai devs precisely because paypal was shutting down purchase/donation accounts.

And if it stops hentai game sites getting clogged up with bullcrap "few screenshots and a broken tech demo" patreon dumps, all the better.

 

[Gurdin Alehammer]

I think it's just to cover their name? They don't want to be associated with some of the content. It's understandable I guess. But since it's also a large part of their income, they probably don't want to do away with it altogether.

 

[AngleBoi7]

Welp,

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.

 

[habisain]

If it's any consolation, it looks like this isn't an adult content issue.

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and it seem like it effects everyone. A screw up, certainly, but not one that is too relevant for this thread (which is on Patreon + Adult content specifically).