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What is Patreon doing?


mayaktheunholy

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  1. The change in policies was a condition on Patreon from investors when they raised money - i.e. this isn't so much to do with Paypal or payment processors, but making themselves attractive to investors.
Not trying to start an argument, just adding more information: I've seen screenshots of email exchanges between multiple different creators and Patreon staff, and every time it comes up, their explanation is "it's due to pressure from our payment processors". So what they say in a public statement and what is really going on may not be the same thing.

To add to what you said in the rest of your post, RL porn has been against their ToS from the beginning. Like the update from last year though, it wasn't really enforced. (I mention it because that's what the article you linked is largely about)
 

AngleBoi7

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Not trying to start an argument, just adding more information: I've seen screenshots of email exchanges between multiple different creators and Patreon staff, and every time it comes up, their explanation is "it's due to pressure from our payment processors". So what they say in a public statement and what is really going on may not be the same thing.

To add to what you said in the rest of your post, RL porn has been against their ToS from the beginning. Like the update from last year though, it wasn't really enforced. (I mention it because that's what the article you linked is largely about)
It's possible both are true, but the payment processors started pressuring first.
 

habisain

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It's also possible that the review teams are poorly informed of Patreon's policies; both on the reasons behind them (because I still don't quite buy the payment processor thing; Patreon has very low rates of chargebacks, after all) and the definition of "pornography". If the review teams are being told to kick pornography off Patreon then of course they'll be flagging the drawn stuff, because that's pornography in the general sense of the word (as in "Pornography (often abbreviated porn) is the portrayal of subject matter for the exclusive purpose of " (Wikipedia definition)). However Patreon's community guidelines use the term Pornography to refer exclusively to real-life pornography, which is a non-standard definition, and it would not surprise me in the least if the new content review teams were not properly applying Patreon's definition over the regular definition. And let's not even go into muddy ill-defined legal terms like "pseudo-photograph" (tldr; in some cases, some non-photos are legally equivalent to photos, but there is very little case law on it).

Gotta remember that the content review teams are almost certainly one of the lowest rungs on Patreon's corporate ladder. If other tech companies placement of the meat-layer on their org-charts is anything to go by, they're overworked and underpaid outsourcers. I can't verify that, obviously (as Patreon isn't publicly listed), but it seems likely. They probably don't feel like they're being paid enough to understand the intricacies of Patreon's policies.
 
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Turrican

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I know it has nothing to do with it, but can I ask a question? I had mentioned that Patreon must worry about the new law that is putting Europe on copyright, one of you replied that no has anything to do with it, but I'm worried about this "censorship". The question is this: if it were to pass has a negative effect on this site and on others (like MEGA, anime-sharing, patreon, hong-fire, dlsite) or is it something else?
You have to understand I'm nervous, I know that you have this law in the USA, but it is not invasive as the EU is proposing.
 

habisain

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On the sites you've listed? Let's see:
  • Anime-sharing is flagrantly outside of the law anyway, why would they care? MEGA as well to an extent, although they're more skirting the law
  • DLSite operates under Japanese law, so no effect
  • Hongfire (I think) is hosted in the US, so no effect
  • ULMF is notionally owned by a Brit (Aika, although Aika doesn't do admin anymore) so would be affected, but Brexit
  • Patreon would be affected, but the new law is largely in line with their existing policies other than enforcement
So no, not much, mainly because of jurisdiction. It's not a censorship law in the way you think. It would make it so that copyright enforcement is done automatically by machines, and the collateral damage from that could have negative effects on parody/"fair use". But given there's hardly any western parody adult games in the first instance (because they tend to get shut down by other means at the moment) it would have limited effect on this community. Besides, as I said before, it's unlikely this law will get onto the books, simply because we've been here before and the EU parliament is generally sensible about not accepting rules that have high collateral damage.
 
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Turrican

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So I can download hentai games with anime-shining.com or dlsite.com without any problems, I can put my opinion on this site without problems? The only thing that can damage is the meme and sattiriche things on Youtube, that means?
Now I understand why Britain came out of Europe AND DO IT !!! (honestly I did not know that ULMF is GB)
 

Bryanis

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So I can download hentai games with anime-shining.com or dlsite.com without any problems, I can put my opinion on this site without problems? The only thing that can damage is the meme and sattiriche things on Youtube, that means?
Now I understand why Britain came out of Europe AND DO IT !!! (honestly I did not know that ULMF is GB)

I'm not a law specialist so I won't go too much into it.
But remember that the brexit wasn't much about this. Most of the argument put forward were about the cost / gain in £ for the UK citizen and the immigration control if still in UE or leaving...

As for the law, from what I could read in newspaper and such like (which are never 100 % accurate), it seem the law was mostly made due to movie / music lobby hunting down piracy. Not sure there will be lot of scanning for H game around.

There have been a few law to enforce control over piracy (especially regarding music / movie) the last decade, and they didn't change much for most UE user except for sharing movie / music on site like youtube....
More obscure site like ulmf / HF / AS aren't going to get hunted down for that.

And the other hand, yes, it might be a prelude to more severe law. But the more liberty killling law they try to make, the harder it will be - especially since of late (mostly since the economic trouble from last decade), more and more UE citizen seem warry of the UE parliament and UE in general, with rise of anti UE political parties in all country.
Making too harsh law will be helping these anti UE parties, and most professional would also scream that it would kill their bussiness - they won't be able to scan everything and stay in the green, and if they get caught and pay some fine will go down too...

So yeah, being warry and careful, but not scared to death.
 

Bryanis

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I'm not a law expert so I can't tell how it will work.
But when the UE parliament vote a law, there some time for each UE country to pass the corresponding law and it's application in their own law - sometime it can take years (the one exemple coming to my mind is the ICH law on clinical studies - UE law passed in 2001... the UE country had up to 2006 to pass the corresponding law in their own country. It's not always so long).
The most important thing will probably be how each country decide to enforce the UE law, so what we must look for his the first few country to pass the law and how to plan to enforce it. That's probably what will tell us how much to worry.

but honestly, to gave comment more pertinent about this particular law, I'll need to found the text and check it.

But when I see what the french anti piracy law "HADOPI" made. I laugh hard. It was suppose to kill piracy, nearly a decade later, there have been no real legal impact. The few first to be comdemt for piracy contested the sentence, and the courts gave them right...
 

Bryanis

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Well, worrying a bit is healthy in our kind of area ^^ but too much is the contrary and won't help :p

We've been getting a bit sidetracked here, so until someone bring more data about the raw text, we should get back from the UE censorship law to what's patreon's doing with all its change of rules.
 
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Turrican

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Let's admit that the law passes, I do not think it will end this way, because there will be a colossal protest (especially the web's collectors) and the European people, I am proud to be Italian, because they said my government will put sticks in the wheels, even if the law passed, and not just Italy. I also learned that some of those who will vote in favor are having second thoughts, because they know what will happen if the law were to pass:
1) will not be re-elected.
2) the European people will approach populism, because they will finally see the true face of the EU.
3) continuous attacks by international comencies (especially those of human rights)
4) those companies that are in favor, in a period of time will lose money for this law, and in your opinion who dump their anger and their failure? EUROPE !!!
5) also the final final vote, if it is spoken between December 2018 or the first months of 2019, in that time frame they will not change their mind?
 

netherus666

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always was curious what patreons real intentions are, if they really wanted to for what ever reason they could just purge adult stuff in no time at all, so why drag it out for so long. weird really, adds more questions then answers :p
 

mayaktheunholy

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It's also possible that the review teams are poorly informed of Patreon's policies; both on the reasons behind them (because I still don't quite buy the payment processor thing; Patreon has very low rates of chargebacks, after all) and the definition of "pornography".
Again, just adding information here. The Paypal issue isn't just about chargebacks. It's about them being against certain types of content (the "banned list", noncon bestiality etc), not wanting to be associated with it. Also see below.

Gotta remember that the content review teams are almost certainly one of the lowest rungs on Patreon's corporate ladder. If other tech companies placement of the meat-layer on their org-charts is anything to go by, they're overworked and underpaid outsourcers. I can't verify that, obviously (as Patreon isn't publicly listed), but it seems likely. They probably don't feel like they're being paid enough to understand the intricacies of Patreon's policies.
Patreon is not a large corporation, they are a small outfit with few employees. I don't pretend to know their employment situation, but I doubt it's like that. They are probably more involved and informed than that.

always was curious what patreons real intentions are, if they really wanted to for what ever reason they could just purge adult stuff in no time at all, so why drag it out for so long. weird really, adds more questions then answers :p
I'd say it's because they really do want to support creators, but they have to answer to the payment processors just like any other business that's not a titan like Steam (still waiting to see how that plays out). And there is probably internal discussion as well about how they should handle these things.
 

HentaiWriter

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What Mayak said, Crisis point and Erogi have been the two major ones I have had to unsub because of huge lack of interest after being censored. Don't be surprised if Grimhelm is next as his page is under review despite the fact that he deactivated it. Next on the chopping block is likely Future Fragments, Anthophobia, Atelier Tia, Mithos56's game, Hdoom. All feature "Banned" content.
Just to point out here, none of these games mentioned above have banned content.

From the Patreon Community Guidelines;
"We understand that some topics on this list such as incest or non-con are a little bit more complicated because these situations are, unfortunately, part of real life. As a result, when reviewing this type of content, the Trust and Safety team will take into consideration context including personal, historical or educational narrative. For example, survivor stories or fiction such as Game of Thrones or Lolita are allowed on Patreon."
We've already had multiple Patreon staff check over our games, as well as other people's games, and they have been clarified as being survivor stories per the above because all the games you mentioned allow the protagonists to fight back against any of the enemies in the game, nor are they portrayed as weak or helpless.

Additionally, while I'm fairly sure all of the following is the case for the above games also, speaking about our game specifically, the main character is;
  • Never physically harmed at any point during the game
    • (Her mana shield protects her from any physical injury, and none of the sex animations or actions injure her in any way either)
  • Never called derogatory names or degraded at any point during the game; most of the sex situations are actually fairly light or comedic
  • Never used for glorification of sex in any way, nor does the game glorify sex
    • (In fact, it denigrates it; anyone having sex with your character for any reason in the world of the game is exiled permanently from the WORM, left to a pretty harsh fate, and this is shown visually multiple times)
  • Outfitted with a huge assortment of weapons and defensive abilities that allow her a wide range of attacks and mobility to combat any enemy in the game or any situation
  • Going on her mission knowing full well that the enemies she combats are sex-crazed and knowing full well the consequences of being bested by them in battle
  • Repeatedly shown to say during cutscenes and game over sequences that she enjoys the sex that's going on
    • (She actually initiates it herself quite a few times for various reasons)
  • Never shown to be traumatized, scared, or upset over any of the sexual acts going on
    • (At worst, she's just annoyed at worst because that eats up time she could be using to get on with her mission)
Finally, there's no beastiality, underage characters, guro/sex combined with violence, or incestual scenarios or enemies in the game.
----------------------------

While we're also at it, PayPal is not the prime issue here, the credit card companies are, but that said, the REAL culprit behind ANY of the censorship is the culture of the country you live in.

The credit card companies have to play by the rules of what the mainstream person in the society you're living in considers "okay" lest they get dragged through the streets about their "values" and what they allow and don't allow, and this is specifically why there is an exception for incest/non-con scenarios above; because in western culture, the number of incestual situations in books over the centuries as well as forced sex/dubious consent/non consent in books, movies, games, media in general has been fairly high, especially in modern times with things like Game of Thrones as noted above, as well as stuff like 50 Shades of Grey riding the line there too.

This cultural thing though is why in the east, on DLSite, you can use Visa and Mastercard to purchase bestiality, loli, scat, hardcore stuff, and no one cares because culturally those things are seen as much taboo over there; conversely, violence is seen as the great taboo over there, so they are much more stringent on violent scenarios than they are here, and the same goes for political and religious mockery as well. (DLSite even has a clause that outright says if your game mocks political or religious things, they won't even allow it on the site.)

Patreon has repeatedly given people chances to fix their pages, and they have repeatedly reinstated people the minute they clear up their front page and make it safe for work, a policy that has been on the site since day one, and they are completely fine with hentai; it's not getting banned off the site, they're just enforcing policies that have been on the site for years and people weren't complying with.

What Patreon IS against though, and what all the news sites seem to be reporting on, is that Patreon IS against real life pornography with real people, and as before, it's been against that since day one; the difference is in the wording. In the west, "pornography" is generally explicitly referring to real life actors in real life video clips or pictures. What a lot of us are making on Patreon with our illustrated games is considered "adult illustrated content" or "erotica" and therefore does not fall under the same guidelines, and again most websites in the west make this distinction.

So hopefully that's got people a little less worried, and hopefully this all clears up some things too.
 
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AngleBoi7

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@HentaiWriter , this has been discussed quite often, we also know that withing Patreon staff all of this isn't always clear and/or up to date (not counting personal biases).
 

HentaiWriter

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@HentaiWriter , this has been discussed quite often, we also know that withing Patreon staff all of this isn't always clear and/or up to date (not counting personal biases).
Right, but that's when you just take your case to another person by opening up another ticket. Nevertheless, multiple staff members have cleared multiple cases of this, plus I hadn't seen anywhere else in the topic discuss about how cultural values are really what's going on with all this, as well as a few other things.
 

habisain

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What Patreon IS against though, and what all the news sites seem to be reporting on, is that Patreon IS against real life pornography with real people, and as before, it's been against that since day one; the difference is in the wording. In the west, "pornography" is generally explicitly referring to real life actors in real life video clips or pictures. What a lot of us are making on Patreon with our illustrated games is considered "adult illustrated content" or "erotica" and therefore does not fall under the same guidelines, and again most websites in the west make this distinction.
I still think this is Patreon simply playing with words, and certainly has the scope for being confusing applied by a newly expanded enforcement team who could easily take the ban on pornography to be the dictionary definition rather than Patreon's definition. The fact that you later seem to suggest polling multiple people on Patreon's support teams until you get a favourable resolution kinda hints that there is an issue with consistency.

To illustrate the problem of confusing terms: "adult illustrated content" is so broad a term as to be meaningless (as in it seems to refer to any illustrated content containing themes inappropriate for children, and I would say includes a lot of stuff produced by say, DC comics as well as some high-art and historical artefacts), and "erotica" has a distinct note about being high-art i.e. storytelling involving sexual themes, rather than a story to facilitate sexual depictions. As much as I like H-games, I don't think any of them can be considered high-art . Whether you like it or not, the vast majority of adult games are pornography, because they do not have any aim above sexual arousal. It just so happens they are not a kind that involves depicting real people.

Incidentally, this is why comparisons to say, films like 50 Shades of Grey are a bit disingenuous. 50 Shades of Grey and it's like are not pornography. These use or feature sexually arousing scenes, but are not solely about those scenes. I'm not personally aware that any of the adult games listed in this thread fall into that category.
 

HentaiWriter

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. I'm not personally aware that any of the adult games listed in this thread fall into that category.
While I'll definitely agree with you that the majority of adult games are definitely there only for tittilation, I'll say that I feel Future Fragments is bordering on erotica at this point based off of your definition of sex not being the focal point or objective of the game, and the final product definitely will be something that could be called erotica (and I'm sure there's other games here too that fall under that).

The number of reviews and poll results we've gotten from all over the internet regarding the latest version have almost universally said they would play and enjoy the game completely regardless of if it had porn or not in it (quite a few have asked us to get rid of the porn altogether, although we won't besides a SFW filter option) and we're designing it specifically to have the sex content as something that's a part of the game's story and world, but it's not the central focus or main aspect by far; it's integrated in a way that isn't meant specifically or solely for tittilation.

As h-games in the west continue to evolve, I think you'll see more and more games fall into that category of erotica, for sure.

Also regarding the distinction, while some staff may not be briefed on it, it is a distinction that almost every adult processor and website uses, so it would be somewhat surprising if the majority of the staff didn't know given its prevalence when dealing with any sort of adult content.

50 Shades of Grey was, as far as I know, mainly intended to be about tittilation/turning the reader on by design though; the original story was literally a Twilight fanfiction just meant to get people off with Mary Sue's involved that people could replace themselves with, and almost the entire cast was just caricatures meant to fill sexual fantasies or tropes regardless of them actually being believeable.

Heck, the BDSM community in general was, and still is up in arms about the movie and book because of how inaccurate it portrays a BDSM relationship to the point of it being comical and to extremes, bordering on misinforming people in a bad way with how it's portrayed. That's why I used it as an example :p
 
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habisain

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Well, whatever 50 Shades of Grey started as, it ended up exploring some themes which most people are not familiar with. Hence why it ended up being classed as Erotica, because it is enlightening people about the BDSM scene, and more importantly exploring issues regarding consent.

I'd be all for more games falling under erotica, however I don't see any evidence of this happening so far. Last I checked Future Fragment's is not there (although this was a while ago) - the entire thing where you create a fairly contrived setup to justify a large number of horny people would appear to put it quite firmly in the porn category rather than the erotica category, especially given apparent fallacies in said setup. I'll obviously reserve judgement until the final game is ready, but certainly in the way you present it, it appears that your primary concern is the sexual content. And do note that I'm not specifying what your actual primary concern is - just how it appears, because that's how you get judged on what you are. There's no use saying "I'm making erotica" if everyone thinks you're making porn.

And that's kind of the point, really. I think there's a lot of creators cling onto the idea that they're creating erotica - because it's seen as being more easily permissible - when it's highly questionable that's what they actually are doing. Patreon's non-standard definition of pornography does not help matters. More problematically, for long-form content (such as games) it's probably way outside of the scope of the reviewers on Patreon to be able to determine if something is erotica or pornography. The danger is that if a significant number of creators do confuse the two, and this becomes broadly apparent, then Patreon would likely have to ban both categories to ensure their platform remains pornography free.

But for now, Patreon's non-standard definition of pornography does mean there is a blanket protection on such content (providing it doesn't feature one of the banned subjects or real people) means that any issues caused by this are on hold. I suppose that means "long live the status quo".
 
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