Re: Defend ULMF! (Sign-up and OOC)
Warning: The following post contains a lethal does of words. Doctors suggest you try and tackle it piecemeal.
(Note: By now I'm sure enough has happened that a large number of these earlier points are no longer valid, as you have worked through them yourself. I’m just going through the points in the posts in order, so if something gets resolved later and I don’t notice, just ignore it, or point out that it was resolved, something like that.
Note 2: Most quotes have been modified so to shorten and remove the parts unnecessary to the point. If I manage to get the intentions of a post wrong… please don’t shout at me. *Cowers*
Note 3: Footnotes used primarily to keep large chunks of unneeded humor out.)
For Siphon's first post:
(…)no one is happy with the selection of enemies, the hive stuff or my character design and the changes he just went through.
Up until this post by you, I actually hadn't had a problem with it. But now, after reading a bit, I can see why that's the case, and agree at least partially with some of the points people are making.
If your not involved in an RP like this, then you have NO GROUNDS to be critiquing other people's characters.
Thoroughly disagree. The act of critiquing something and the act of doing that something are two entirely different things. Critiquing is more focused on theory, while the act is more focused on practice. Not to mention the different things that can be noticed by an impartial observer, which would be missed by a participant. First example to come to mind: RK's dogmeat mod sex thing that I critiqued (
http://www.ulmf.org/bbs/showthread.php?t=721). I couldn't have written that for shit - my erotica sucks - but my critiquing, at least in my opinion, was fairly adequate. I could have done better in some aspects, but that's not important to this post. (Oooh, look at that, meta-critiquing!~) Amusing note: I fit Siphon’s criteria of ‘someone who shouldn’t be critiquing’, yet have not actually critiqued his character or this game at all, before now.
1: come up with a way of "evolving" your character like I have done.
That's a non-option. Players should not have to be subjected to power creep, at least not without very good reasons. It is not enjoyable to find that you now have to change your character because one person decided to be further above the average than you’d thought they’d be. Unknown Squid puts it well in this post (
http://www.ulmf.org/bbs/showpost.php?p=12276&postcount=80) in the SBS roleplay. For one, the solution of having every character get their own, unique 'level up moment' would be ridiculously cheesy, and get old very quickly. If there's going to be a power boost at all, it should at least be something that powers everyone up simultaneously. Now, if the changes were non-permanent, or if the character was slated to die shortly afterwards, that would be a different story.
(And, for the record, this point is entirely in response to the idea of having everyone power up; not because I think there is power-creep present. I'm under the impression that Siphon was going to be made permanently
weaker by the changes to his body, not stronger.)
I can remove ALL aspects of my supposed sci-fi bullshit from the RP and alter my character. I can guarantee you won't like the new character idea, since it will be based off of a G-Virus Resident Evil Birkin Class Tyrant, or a T-102 Nemesis class Super Tyrant.
I don't mind your character having Sci-fi stuff. But more on that later(1) - why'd you think we'd not like a Res-Evil tyrant/Birkin character? That's fuck'n brilliant! Hell, even if you keep Siphon, add that guy in! Just so long as you can keep him from dominating the RP, and keep him relatively in line with the other characters' power-level, that would rock. (But it is unnecessary, for Siphon is a fine character as he currently stands – and you do say that you’re pressed for time a little further down, so taking up a second character would not be advisable.)
3: this RP was DESIGNED to have OP characters by Burrito's definition. Also, people who are OP should not be complaining about others being OP. (Modified significantly for space)
Ah, the first point I agree with in full!
I'm extremely busy with all the other RP's, RL issues and my own CoC RP. I also have a 2 year old daughter to be thinking about, so sometimes I just don't post that much.
Forgive me, but I don't see how this relates to the problem. It's not a case of you not doing enough - it's a case of you doing too much! *Grin*
I'm considering the option of withdrawing from several RP's to free my time up some, and to end the headache I am apparently causing some people. The other characters will either forget mine ever existed, OR I will remove them in such a way that they are K.I.A.
Would work, but it's excessive. There are other, better ways to alleviate it - toning down the universe that Siphon is bringing with him to a more background role, for instance.
I generally do not have a problem with complaints about my RP style, HOWEVER, and I stress the however highly: I DO have a problem when nothing constructive is added to it, no suggestion on an idea. I also have a problem with people simply not having the guts to say it to my face, or even in the OOC thread.
I disagree about the ‘nothing constructive added’, I agree with the ‘say it to my face’. The idea and point raised by a critique is an end in itself. By having the problem brought to attention, the person who has the problem is given a chance to solve it themselves. Someone critiquing art may not be good enough a critic to say, “this is how you fix this problem”, but they can at least identify that there is a problem and even the general area of the problem. This tends to be very helpful to someone with reasonable skill, who can then take a thorough look at the part identified as being wrong, and try to solve it themselves. But yes, this criticism should be to you, directly.
I didn't realize that I was this intimidating.
…You are.
At least to me, anyway – though that isn’t saying much. Amusement park rides scare me, hell,
Zerg creep used to scare me while I played Starcraft! Your ability to post ridiculous quantities (I still say you’re using a bot), your character’s usual ‘righteous fury’, your tendency to dominate an RP, going ape over what I found to be a fairly well done joke (but I’d like to avoid drama over a, what, Months old argument? Let’s leave it at that and not start it up again.) That being said, if I had a problem, I would say… actually no, I wouldn’t say it to your face – I’m a bit too cowardly for that, but I –would- PM you directly.
Now, Copper’s post:
as far as anyone playing the game, y'know, we are a vocal bunch. I highly doubt if there were a problem among us it would have stayed private for long.
As did I, but apparently not, since there’s been this many dissentions.
But seriously, Shrike and Tsuki were just having this conversation. If there's something you want to do, we do it. Like the ship. Shrike didn't ask Burrito about it. She just did it. (…) There's enough potential among us to make different storylines, it's just that there are those that take more initiative than others.
I also hold this opinion, but each player must be very careful about it. They mustn’t let the changes they make cause their character to become overpowering, both in the power sense and the plot sense (i.e., they can’t let their character take over the whole plot). WITH THAT BEING SAID. There is an important point I must make (hence the eye-catching all caps sentence). If everyone were to bring in their own sub-faction or army, with it’s own plot, the RP would get even shittier than if one person were dominating it. A good RP needs either a single plot being enforced by the GM and played by the players, or a max of one to two large player-created plots at the same time, and other players who are along for the ride. For this reason, I am actually content to let someone dominate the RP - for a period of time, at least.
If a character evolution makes sense, I've got no problem with it. If things happen for no reason, then I'll take issue, but the way I see it, I'm having fun, so I don't care. When I stop having fun, then I'll say something.
The only part I can fault in this whole paragraph is these lines. Just because you can evolve your character easily does not mean others can easily evolve theirs. You said that you would take exception to someone who powers up their character when it doesn’t make sense, but not all characters are designed to be easily ‘power-up’ able. If someone were to make their character stronger, forcing everyone to power up, you might have an easy time of it but others may not, without braking the character’s personality, or retardifying them, or breaking their character’s lore or some such. It may well still be fun for you to play, but several people could be left having significantly less fun.
Pale’s post:
Things have gone drastically downhill in both this, and Last Resort. Solid ideas, well-supported, with a lot of interest, have degenerated into basic, predictable plots centering around one individual.
(Copper: ) as far as degenerated plots, I don't see it.
I’m agreeing with Copper on this one, for Last Resort anyway. So far, the only thing Siphon’s added to Last Resort - apart from the character - is the ship’s design. Now, while I do dislike the use of an Ori ship, that’s for a completely different reason(2). One way or another, there was going to be a ship there, and it was going to be powerful – it was merely a case of deciding which ship to use. Or making another one entirely, but designing an aesthetically pleasing ship is not an easy task by any stretch of the imagination. The Ori ships are hardly outside the game’s genre, and despite the talk of ancient civilizations and genes, as long as Siphon does not try to revive the Ori later on, I don’t think there’s been any significant plot derailment. (The rings, though… a bit overkill. It might have been better to not include them. Ah well, too late now anyway.)
For DULMF, I agree that the plot has been altered, and not necessarily for the better, but I wouldn’t go as far as a degeneration. We went from attacking bots, to attacking bots controlled by wraith. There’s no way to go back on that, the plot has been forever altered so that wraith were the ones attacking us. The point at which I disagree is that it was an entirely bad thing, because the original plot was very thin, and would have only been fun for so long before someone had to start adding in other elements. I will admit that the changes made have made it harder to play certain types of characters. (For instance, anything based in fantasy tends to take a big hit from massive city destroying ships, and near bullet-proof armour.) But in regards to the interest of players, at least, I believe Siphon had immaculate timing, swooping in with his plot just as things were starting to look like they’d go downhill.
GMs have handed everything over to players - without realising that their function is supposed to be the leaders - not the safeguards.
Now, this is one point on which I must disagree heartily. Yes, the GM’s have handed things over to the players, and yes, this is not how a normal GM would operate. But that does not necessarily make the RP bad, just different. SBS, for instance, has been loved by most of the RPers of the forum at one point or other, but has always been largely uncontrolled by the GM. Most of the plot comes from the players adding their own stuff into the mix, not necessarily “as they please”, but certainly with a considerable degree of control over what goes in and what comes out. They, in a sense, become minor GM’s for their particular arc of the story. It is, in fact, one of the lures of the game, as opposed to stricter RPs, like Wolf’s.
when large arguments spring from GMs bringing in -punishments- for players who try to innovate and challenge-
Wait, what? I’ve clearly missed something here. I’m guessing this was in chat, or some such? Either that or I forgot the instance you’re talking about. (3)
Siphon’s next post:
Don’t assume that just because other things have gone on that we have spoken about are (…) my reasonings for this.
Alright, I’m very clearly missing some sort of subtext, but I won’t push for an explanation.
Copper’s post:
The way I see it, the reason we're focusing on the one aspect is because that's what's out there. If there's nothing else to play off of, then we go with option A by default.
Agreed. Were someone to create and push for another line of plot, we would likely follow that. Someone like, say, ooohh… me? *Grins* Because my character’s very existence will create another line of plot to follow.
No issues here. I'm just vocal and trying to find a middle ground or solution. In my nature. Can't help it.
Why, that line could very well have come from my own mouth! *grins*
Cross Grave’s post:
You’re going to love my character…
Siphon’s next post:
The Thembrihkal really haven't gotten to shine much
There is an intrinsic problem with the thembrihkal’s abilities. You’ve effectively given a “one hit kill” type attack, the submissive-y drain energy thing, to an being that’s able to take a lot of punishment, and is very difficult to get off… and then tried to make it a normal enemy. A thembrihkal might be a good one-off, boss-type creature, because taking a nasty hit that leaves you out of the game from a boss would be understandable. But as it stands, if a thembrihkal actually grabs a player character, they’re almost certain to die or be very drained, unless help comes –immediately-; this is why the GM’s have had to keep using deus ex machina to save everyone.
Grave’s next post:
The problem is, you just tend to drop an event and sort of leave it, as if saying "hey, let's what Copper, Grave, Shrike and Tsuki will do about it" and accepting whatever result that comes up.
I must agree. Burrito and Siphon would benefit from adding difficulty to each task by blocking some of the players’ attempts. Only in reasonable ways, of course. Getting hit by a “No, I wont let you do that” from the GM for no apparent reason can suck more than having an easy time of it.
You know, I've just had an idea. Destruction of the forum. Our forum. Wouldn't that spice the story up a bit?
Yes. Yes it would. It would also fuck over my character, but I may be able to cope with it. Either that or make him Emo and /wrists for loosing the forum.
Burrito’s post:
But now that I've learned how to GM properly, you can expect me to bust your asses on some of these enemies.
Strange to say, but I’m looking forward to that.
Shrike’s post:
My only complaint is when an enemy gets set up like ‘its gonna be hard, this is going to take a while to deal with', which sounds like a blast. Then one of the GM characters pop in and kills them in a single post, usually before most of the actual players even get started.
I also agree, though once again I must warn against the opposite. One game I saw on a forum had the players going up against a ‘boss’ creature, and each character hit it with more and more powerful attacks, to the point where each attack would have killed it in one hit… but the players didn’t want to ‘steal the kill’, so every attack would always leave it ‘still just barely alive’, even if it was ‘still just barely alive’ six world-ending attacks ago.
(1) Having Sci-fi elements in a character is fine, as long as you don’t begin to make the whole RP sci-fi as well. This is an open RP, so there should always be the opportunity for a player to bring in their goblins or orcs or elves, or even normal human weaponry, and not feel completely… ‘underdressed’, for the setting.
(2) The reason I’m annoyed about using an ori ship is because there was a far, far better ship for ‘the last resort of humanity’. Hell, there were so many similarities between the events that I almost suspect you’re ripping off the show. I’ll give you some hints:
In the year whatever-it-was, Earth was under severe attack from the mysterious Fallen species. Fallen spaceships covered the solar system, and as a result, in little time at all, Earth could be taken. But, in the depths of Antarctica, there is a machine that could fight the Fallen. The mutant Adria offers it to the people of Earth. A team of mutants, called whatever-the-squad-name-was, undertakes a perilous journey. But, can the mutants defeat the entire Fallen fleet, before Earth is taken?
Michael: I cannot bear to see what has become of Earth. Once green and growing with blue lakes and silver streams, great rivers and mighty seas - now all gone. Only dead and burning desert left. Fallen everywhere.
Michael: This battleship alone, against such an evil as the Fallen. We stand between them and Earth. We must prevail. We are Earth's last defence. Here over Antarctica, we must make our stand!
*The ship is accosted by Fallen before it is fully under control*
Pilot: A message from the Fallen ship, sir: "Earth ship, surrender now". What shall I tell them?
Michael: Tell them – Don’t tell them anything. Fire on them!
Pilot: What?
Michael: I said – Fire on them!
366: That's Michael. He's a little eccentric, about five degrees.
If you hadn’t got it yet, this will tell it to you, plain and simple.
Host: *humming* Dun, Dun, dudun, Dun dun dun, duduuun. Dududun dun dun dun duun, dududun duuun. DUN DUN, Duh duh duh, DUN DUN, Duh duh duh, duh – dadada, dadada, dah dada dada, dadada, dadada, dah dada dada DUUUuuuuhh…
*Siphon and Burrito enter*
Burrito: I still don’t see why you think Last Resort ripping off something.
Host: Think about it. Wouldn’t you say you’re off to outer space?
Siphon: Yes.
Host: *Small Smile* So, you’re leaving mother earth?
Burrito: That was implied.
Host: *Grin* To saaave the human raaace?
Siphon: …What are you getting at?
Host: *huge, face splitting grin* *breathes in deep…*
Host:
OUURRRR! STAAAAR! BLAAZERRRRRRRS!!!!
Burrito: *pulls fingers out of ears* …
the fuck!?
UCHUU SENKAN, YAAAA!-MAAAA!-TOHHH!!
http://www.ulmf.org/bbs/picture.php?albumid=119&pictureid=1448
Theme song:
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If no one gets this, I’m going to be so pissed… I mean, you’re all supposed to be cultured! =P Space Battleship Yamato would have been so much better than some random Ori junk – it’s got a long history of doing this sort of thing!
(3)(You sure you haven’t got this confused with AWMBI? Because something similar (depending on who’s PoV you’re taking) is happening in that RP, between Kayi and RJ – it was a joke, RJ! A jo- AA
AAH!)
Woo, that got mightily derailed at points. Anyway, character coming in next post.
