DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Shinto Victory

[Mamono Assault Force]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

(2/6) votes needed to burn Keiko at the Pyre

 

[cross_grave]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

"I will not vote for this." Yomi spoke up. "We know too little to make an accurate judgement, and there is too big a chance that we kill one of ours rather than a cultist. We outnumber the cultists, sisters, but sending the wrong person to the pyre can be the difference between life or death. What if Keiko's an investigator? If we doom her here, we'll be left without precious aid that may tip the scales in our favor." She shook her head. "No, it is far too risky. We will not catch the cultists with such a tactic. And purity does not come from sending sisters to death! Mark my words, this vote shall cause more harm than good if it passes."

 

[ToxicShock]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

(Sorry for being borderline dead in this game so far. It's only cuz I've been borderline dead irl as well.)

Miyuki has learned that the green-haired girl is feeling sick (IRL) and thus has gone to sleep for a bit.

(Ho jeez, my terrible secret has been discovered -_-)

"That is enough with the accusations, Miyuki! I know we're all scared and it is our job to root out the evil, but defending against it with only our very lives to assure it doesn't escape would only fit us if we were powerless to stop it. We are priestesses and each of us have powers to defend ourselves and root out the evil. And I know that, if I were to die, I'd want you all to read my diary just as we'd read yours to find what information we could share and be sure of our true intentions. If you still wish to cast blame past this, I think it will be clear that Miyuki has gone mad, but we shouldn't burn her at the pyre because death is precisely what she wants"

(Long story short, yeah, blue, your strategy works out in games where we have to win by lynching, like any standard mafia, and of course we have to break a few eggs. But this is based on Salem where EVERYONE has a power and we're all not hanging on a lynch vote. Not only that, but the wills mean confirmed information can be shared at the time of death with others, so innocents pay off for living longer.)

 

[BlueSlime]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

"If you were a Cultist, which would you fear more? A community that does not use lynches, or a community that does? I know that if I were in their shoes, I'd be laughing at a bunch of shintos unwilling to do what must be done... wasting their time, allowing the cultists a free, unanswered attack - and not even bothering to put them to the question, to force others to counter-vote, to shift blame, to promote other targets.

"The evils have a great advantage over us. They know who each other are. They can manipulate a vote, it's true, but in manipulating a vote on day 2, they might leave evidence that the Shintos could examine by day 5. At a crucial moment, we would be able to go back and look at a list of words and actions, analyse who was fighting vehemently to save who, and who was eager to vote to kill off innocents.

"One mistake, two mistakes, yes, there will probably be mistakes made in the beginning unless we are lucky and beat the odds, but those are ACCEPTABLE mistakes, because there will be a vote record. There will be people's opinions on the matter at the time, opinions which my change their tune as the days pass.

"I know that if I were a cultist, I would want silence. I would want no discussion. I would want no butting of heads, or strong words exchanged. I would want no challenges issued. I would be content for people to say 'Oh, we must surely do something, is there not an investigator here to help us?' And I would laugh well and truly if the cultists were able to silence such an investigator early in the game, without ever being able to share their information with us. For you see, the evils have no qualms about taking shots in the dark. On any given night, they could beat the odds, and if they kill the interrogator maidens, then where will all of you calling for abstaining be? Will you regret wasting an opportunity to use the Holy Flame? I say that you shall"

"I am a true shrine maiden of this temple. My goal is not to suffer evils to live, and would gladly give up my life as well as other defenders of the temple to see it done. So long as the demon's corruption is incomplete, our pure souls will come back from the Holy Fire. But all is lost if the cultists win out, and so I shall do what needs to be done - even if some of you are too short-sighted to see the truth. I wonder who among my detractors is a cultist, and who of them are just being misled. Keiko may or may not be innocent, but it is this plague of complacency among her and others that is the true enemy of the temple right now."

 

[BlueSlime]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

Cross-posted with Toxic.

I fundamentally disagree. Just because this game is full of people with powers does not mean that there is no value in lynching from the get go. I've played games like this, and even more complicated ones to be frank, and my opinion stands. I take the point of view that every day, including the first possible lynch day, is a good day to put votes out.

Even having this whole conversation about seeing where people stand on the abstaining/not abstaining issue is USEFUL for the thread. If nothing else, it gets people talking game mechanics and not just RPing scared little nuns.

 

[cross_grave]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

"And why would a Cultist fear conflict and debate? They'd encourage it if they were truly clever, and do their best to steer it, and the suspicions of sisters, towards those she wants removed! Why attack us only at night, when she can convince us to use our own pyre to remove the biggest threats, like those she can't strike down at night? We must be mindful not only of their sorcery, but manipulation as well! For the cult, only victory matters. Whether by breaking or killing us, that is secondary."

I disagree. I've seen games won because people held off voting until there was proof, and games lost due to lynch-happy behaviour. Day one lynches very rarely benefit anyone but the evil team. Discussion, yes. That can be useful - you never know what sort of clues people might drop for you to use. But lynching? Too small a chance to actually find an evil character. And smart evils will know how to manipulate people. I've seen that happen too.

 

[freeko]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

Our weapon against the evil that confronts us is the lynching. If we do not use it then we all may as well just line up one by one and let them ravage us all. That being said, it is true that ebil will want to just blend in. How can we determine who is fake if we do not start asking questions?

I would be more likely to vote on someone who does not act. If someone does not act then, they are likely my enemy.

 

[BlueSlime]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

"And why would a Cultist fear conflict and debate? They'd encourage it if they were truly clever, and do their best to steer it, and the suspicions of sisters, towards those she wants removed! Why attack us only at night, when she can convince us to use our own pyre to remove the biggest threats, like those she can't strike down at night? We must be mindful not only of their sorcery, but manipulation as well! For the cult, only victory matters. Whether by breaking or killing us, that is secondary."

I disagree. I've seen games won because people held off voting until there was proof, and games lost due to lynch-happy behaviour. Day one lynches very rarely benefit anyone but the evil team. Discussion, yes. That can be useful - you never know what sort of clues people might drop for you to use. But lynching? Too small a chance to actually find an evil character. And smart evils will know how to manipulate people. I've seen that happen too.

My emphasis added.

That's exactly why we should vote. If they know lynch is coming, then they will try to steer votes a certain way. Or they may try to cruise when votes are sufficiently on a person they don't mind seeing lynched.

Over the course of the days ahead, we will be able to look back on individuals and see what their attitude was during the early days as opposed to later days.

I've seen these kind of games lost because people have wasted day 1, and sometimes amazingly enough day 2 as well, only for a critical good investigator to die in the night and nothing was shared. What happens when we get to that point? Oh, is it suddenly okay to start lynching? Then you're already down 2 extra good guys and the majority vote is even easier for the bad guys to sway.

(MAF: All the cultists currently know one another, correct? It's not just the killer Cultist operating by themselves, to be replaced when and if they die by an unknown back up. Please correct me if I'm wrong about that.)

 

[ToxicShock]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

"Although it benefits the cultists for us not to not lynch each other, it doubly benefits them if we start killing each other, innocent or not. We would benefit on time and giving our own freedom to act on their own, which they assuredly wouldn't have it you were at the helm. If we kill off the one maiden who is able to see into our hearts, she will only have 1 lead to go on at most and we'll be fighting blind. The diaries we keep are essential for combating this evil as a unit, and those take time. If you really want to live by your sword, I feel you'd have little complaint to a Warden visiting you tonight."

only for a critical good investigator to die in the night and nothing was shared.

(Except, we have WILLS, which is still the major downfall to every single thing you're saying, regardless of powers. Random lynches almost ensure evil victory)

 

[freeko]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

Even if we are to believe this stuff about wills, you would be a day behind with your will. If one is kept at all, which I think is a fairly relevant issue in and of itself.

So for theoretical example, and I emphasize this is only theory to make a point:

Lets say we no lynch. Then a/the "cop" dies at night. They get a guilty on someone n1, we have no idea who they investigated nor the result and that is their will. Do we just auto lynch that person on d3 because there is a guilty? No, you cannot because it may very well have been the person that was "framed" by the illusionist. (end theory rant)

The simple fact is, that when you no lynch you are giving the "mafia" a free turn. There is no benefit in giving the "mafia" a free turn in my opinion when it goes directly against how you eliminate them in the first place. Playing against your win condition is bad for the town as a whole.

 

[Hopeyouguess62]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

That's exactly why we should vote. If they know lynch is coming, then they will try to steer votes a certain way.

"So let me see if I understand you two correctly. The only evidence we possess so far is the unfortunate death of our sister Alisa, and the fact that I was the target of a Crazed Maiden. Mathematically speaking, picking an arbitrary target favors the survival of the minority, the cultists. Having been a target already, I am at this point the least likely adversary in the group (because I can't be the Crazed Maiden). And you two," Keiko indicates Miyuki and Hikari, "are pushing a vote in my direction. Frankly, I find that highly suspicious, but it could just be that you two don't understand math at all."

Keiko crosses her arms, glaring. "Or am I missing something?"

Spoiler

There's a LOT of OOC discussion going on in the thread.

 

[xivvix]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

Hikari remains calm throughout the heated argument, only speaking up when she feels enough has been said that she can lend further light on the situation. "Good, I'm glad the threat of death has spurred such strong conversational skills amongst you," she said, looking around at each of the gathered sisters."The fact of the matter is that whether we burn Keiko or not, there will still be evil among us. The cultist who has been inflicting such terror on us so far has surely not been working alone, for true evil has no such courage. On the other hand, this 'Crazed Maiden' that has marked Keiko is working alone. While we good sisters quibble in fear over doing what must be done, and the cultists work behind the scenes to whittle our numbers down, inaction allows the Crazed Maiden to build her army of hosts, giving her ever more power to use against us. If we can deny her this power by removing those that have been marked, we will keep her powerless while our investigators search her out."

Turning back to look at Keiko, her voice becomes apologetic, but stays calm. "Thus we must act. As you have said, it is unlikely you are the Crazed Maiden, but in time, you will be used by her to destroy us all." She paused, before turning to regard the others again. "We simply do not have enough information yet to determine who among us is a cultist, but we do know that Keiko's mark is the first step toward the Crazed Maiden's ultimate victory. We sacrifice Keiko now, such that her life does not destroy us later, and in the meantime we can begin to accrue evidence against the cultists."

With all that being said, Hikari once again took on a look of supreme serenity. Before leaving center of the sister's congregation, she spoke once more. "Of course, if we are all so scared of being wrong that we are more prepared to fall into evil's clutches, then we will have no one else to blame but ourselves when we do."

(This is my first time playing, so maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like right now we've got a good chance to do some damage to the cultists. I'll be the first to admit to being bad at math, but we can afford to lose a good player in the early game, while the longer we wait the stronger evil gets. If Hope IS evil, then we kill two birds with one stone.)

 

[Mamono Assault Force]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

(All of the Cultists do indeed know each other. They converse with one another at night.)

(As well, Toxic is correct. Wills are an unmistakably powerful resource for the good team, as they are read once everyone knows for a fact what that person's role is. So even if a Shinto Sherlock dies, if she keeps logs of her information, it means that everything on that paper cannot be argued or denied unless the information is bad, such as an illusionist finding, or a Defiler tampering. Wills are the tools of the good guys.)

 

[Mind Flayer]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

Hearing the squabbling between everyone else as she moved to get Alisa down from the cross with whoever else decided to help, Shiori sniffled and wiped her eyes before turning to look at everyone else while they argued about things. "I... I think more investigating should be done before we just accuse someone like this. But at the same time I also agree that we have to do something, and Hikari is right, Keiko is marked and in time will be used to destroy the rest of us by the crazed maiden. And as you have all said, if her heart is innocent and pure then her soul will be saved. I hate this, but I feel I must agree with those against Keiko, as there is the chance that we'd be killing two birds with one stone, and inaction is the worst thing we can do when beset by two completely different foes," Shiori said, looking sad and apologetically at Keiko, but standing with Hikari and Miyuki with eyes wet with tears about to fall once more.

 

[Mamono Assault Force]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

(The Mark of the Crazed Maiden is not a danger to everyone else, if there's some confusion there. It's only a Mark of Doom as it were. The only person in danger right now is Keiko (provided she's telling the truth about the mark), until someone else gets marked.)

 

[Hopeyouguess62]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

Keiko facepalms. "Hikari, that was an interesting lecture, but I don't think you've been paying attention. When these symbols are activated, the bearer (myself in this case) is essentially raped to insanity and carried off by demons. If it were to be activated tonight, I would be the only casualty. But that would cost the Crazed Maiden a night. So if you kill me off, all you're doing is saving her the time, and wasting our time. On the other hand, if we catch the Crazed Maiden first, there's no effect."

She gives Hikari a deadpan look. "Is any of this getting through to you? Should I use smaller words? Maybe I could speak more slowly? I'm afraid I was never very good at sign language, if it's a hearing difficulty."

 

[cross_grave]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

"I stand against this." Yomi declared. "Keiko is not lost yet. The maiden may have marked her, but she has yet to spring the trap. She will likely try to target more of us first. Burning Keiko will be the same as doing her work by our own hands, she will be lost to us in both cases. Meanwhile, the madwoman moves on to another target. If we are to stop the Crazed one, we must focus on finding and neutralizing her, not her targets."

 

[xivvix]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

Hikari stiffened as Keiko talked down to her. "I understand perfectly well, and while you are correct that, were this crazed maiden to call her foul minions to claim you tonight, only you would be affected. However, my concern is that by doing nothing, we allow the crazed maiden to gain power, not through turning the marked to her side, but by building up a stable of doomed maidens. The more maidens fall under her spell, the more catastrophic the effects will be when she does decide to act. By burning the affected maidens one by one, we limit the effect the crazed maiden can have, rendering her powerless in a greater sense."

She turned away from Keiko, her head held high, but continued to speak to her. "Of course, if you wish to place your own survival over the good of the temple, I understand..."

 

[Hopeyouguess62]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

"So your solution is to allow the Cursed Maiden to determine whom we should kill, rather than letting our Shinto investigators do their work. Interesting. Absolutely senseless, but interesting."

 

[xivvix]

Re: DTT Revival - Game 1 ; Day 2

"Senseless? Hardly. As I said, we render her powerless. We are not allowing her to choose whom we kill, because as soon as our investigators learn something meaningful about the cultists or the crazed maidens, we can then act, secure in the knowledge that one of the threats is safely contained. This gives US power, not her. "

"Your solution is to ignore the problem until it is too late. Hardly what I would consider sensible."