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[Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?


Jesus

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So, Gamemaker's Toolkit put up a video about AI design in games, which inspired me to kick off a discussion about a recurring theme in H-games; the lack of challenge. You can watch the video here:

I'd really value the input of devs here, we have quite a few on this forum.
I'll be mainly relating this to action side-scrollers in particular, but much still holds true of RPGs.

So, a problem I find endemic in H-games is that their enemies seldom present a challenge to players for varying reasons. In games where those enemies are out to rape the player character, this is important to avoid.
Out of all the factors outlined in the above video, passive behavior, ie the absence of reaction to the player, their actions and tactics, is chief amongst them. However, it's also probably the hardest to address, since most adult game devs don't have the ability or resources to create complex AI, or gameplay systems for them to interact with.

So, which are the simplest methods to have the enemies in these games pose a credible threat?

1) Verticality.
One of the most common complaints I have about action games is that enemies are often bound to a single plane of movement, in the worst cases keeping all of them in the player's line of fire so long as they're facing them. Thus, the challenge amounts to "Can I shoot/slash/magic enough in their direction to kill them, before they get close enough to inflict damage to me?". And more often than not in such games, the answer will be yes unless you suffer crippling boneitis and only hit the attack button 1/10 times. In others, the dev will compensate by giving the enemy absurdly high health or damage potential.
The result in both cases is tedium; you don't feel threatened by enemies that make themselves easy targets. This goes double in games where the player can jump, but enemies cannot. Likewise, you are frustrated by enemies that present little opportunity for exploitation.

A fair proportion of action games will go a step up, and have two or three vertical planes - take 's games for example - necessitating the player to crouch or jump to hit (or avoid) the enemy. Even better is when some enemies switch between planes, or temporarily cover multiple through a projectile or sweeping attack.

The best implementation of verticality however, is to allow for enemies to be in any direction from the player, and give the player the ability to attack in multiple directions.

This is achieved through
2) Enemy behavior and characteristics
Let's look at Crisis Point as an example. Each enemy has a unique movement pattern, with some more complex than others. The first enemy you encounter, the slimes crawl up and down walls and ceilings. They often end up at odd angles you have to jump or crouch to hit before it launches its self at Alicia, the player character.
The flies hover out of line-of-fire, maintaining their distance from Alicia, often on both sides, then swoop in for an attack; This introduces an element of timing, as the only way to deal with them is to shoot them during their attack, or dodge them as you move to escape that room.
The tentacles are fairly docile and are more or less a "support" enemy. They will stay in place until Alicia reaches a certain distance, then burrow under the terrain, then unburrowing beneath her, giving the player a short window to dodge or be knocked down.
One of each of these enemies alone presents a difficult challenge, you're forced to prioritise. The fly constantly harasses, but doesn't pose much of a threat; the slime moves slowly, but can do some damage if it gets close enough; the tentacles are easy to dodge, but can easily knock you down if you're focused on fighting the other two.

Another game I'd like to use as an example is Wolfenstahl's Last Demon Hunter ( ). It's top-down so it has the luxury of not having the ground being an obstacle the enemies have to account for but I digress. It has small, weak enemies with a ranged attack that will shoot at you, then zip around when you go to aim at them. Some enemies are plain dumb but tanky and try to close the distance. Another enemy is capable of cloaking and teleportation.

Creating enemies that vary completely in their method of maneuvering around and attacking the player is arguably the most effective means, however it requires the support of level design.

Earlier, I mentioned
3) Timing
If you can always attack, and the enemy is always an easy target (Through behavior and/or their health vs the PC's damage potential), the player will rarely be in enough "natural" danger to lose/get knocked down to see the H anim/scene, leading to intentional self-sabotage to at least get some gratification out of the encounter. One of the best ways to make any enemy more of a danger is to shorten the window the player has to successfully damage or defeat them, (This applies to the enemy too so as to not make the player too vulnerable). One game that does this excellently is . The enemies can't be hit by default, only entering a "solid" state for brief moments, most often when rearing for an attack. To kill the enemy, the player must first stun them when they're in this solid state, allowing them a brief window to land a damaging attack. Throw in multiple enemies on both sides and it's both much more challenging and all the more satisfying to land those hits.

4) Awareness & Ambush
In most side-scrollers, the player can see everything in their surroundings, regardless of where their character "should" be able to see; around corners, on the floors above and below, behind them. Knowing, as the saying goes, is half the battle. Even in the most basic games, having to check behind you every once in a while would go a long way. The more directions the enemy could possibly be in, and the more obstacles blocking line of sight to them, the more opportunities the enemies will have to get the drop on the player.
Again, Last Demon Hunter is a prime example; The gameplay revolves around moving through proc-gen'd facilities, with several rooms and corridors. You don't know what's around each corner or behind each door til you round it or open it; If you rush complacently, you might find yourself unable to deal with the threats you've presented yourself to.
Again though, this is facilitated by the nature of a top-down perspective.

Anthophobia addresses this in an interesting way with one enemy at least. There's a static plant enemy whose primary means of attack is by shooting spores into the air; when contacting the heroine, she'll be hypnotised into walking forwards for a short while, allowing any enemy in her path to take advantage. Due to your restrictive vision cone, it's easy to not even realise they're there.

While the player's field of view can be restricted and line of sight obstructed in a side scroller, in most cases it might be awkward due to the particular game's combat mechanics. So, how else can this effect be achieved?

Camouflage. Anthophobia has another good example, though unfortunately the pertinent enemies don't have an H-attack. Much of the background scenery features flowers, and two enemies have very similar-looking flowers growing out their top. When they're moving, you can see the rest of the enemy, but when they're stopped they will cling to the wall, showing only the flower. If the player mindlessly wanders past, they might find themselves getting hit when they just walked through an "empty" area.

There's also the element of traps, though they can often be more frustrating than not.

5) Resource management
Where most games will restrict the player's power behind XP bars or powerups (Not that this is a bad thing), another way to go about it is limiting the player's capacity for combat by making the supplies used to do so limited. Again, Anthophobia is a very good example of this. You can well decide to shoot everything in your path, but there literally isn't enough ammo in the game for this, and you'll soon find yourself swinging a pipe at enemies that couldn't care less if you're not careful. It raises the stakes of any fight because if you miss, that's a measure of your combat capacity you won't get back. You can be more efficient by say, shooting 2 shots at a zombie then hitting it once with the pipe, but this puts you at greater immediate risk. So, just by restricting ammunition heavily, there's a compelling decision to be made in a scenario where there wouldn't be otherwise. "Do I save that bullet for later at the risk of getting hit, or do I use it now at the risk of not having enough to kill more a more dangerous enemy?". It also adds an incentive for exploration.
The same can be said of the game's way of managing health - you can sacrifice a measure of your clothing to replenish it. "Do I deal with being closer to losing, or do I trade vulnerability for increasing that distance?".

There are a few more that escape me right now - Not even touched CR mechanics, I think that should be left for a later discussion. But these five elements together would make a fun game, hentai or not.
 

Noble 6

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

Platformer?
Just make a fun platformer, that just happens to have porn in it. See: Kurovadis, Bullet Requiem (RJ153305).
That way, they're having fun no matter what, and the porn is pretty much a bonus for a competent game.
The porn in a platformer is also usually separate. Like, everything is frozen during the sex, whether it's you doing the raping or being raped, so it exists in a vacuum and relies on nothing other than one person losing a one-on-one fight.

RPG?
Actual feedback during a fight. Less feedback turns it more into a typical turn-based rpg and if someone wanted to play that, they'd go off and find better ones.
Good feedback are things like clothes breaking independently of HP. Some games have their clothing sprites tied to HP, and this is less feedback for gameplay. You interact with the game less and it interacts back with you less. Just because my character healed their wounds doesn't mean it also mended their clothes, and just because the acid they got sprayed with did only a little damage doesn't mean their clothes survived it. Things also happening like saving a captive during a fight, who turns out to be an enemy ninja, who then tries to pickpocket my rope and gets caught by it who I can then sell to a slave trader, is a good set of layers of interaction and is more than just the standard turn-based combat. Enemies giving you helpful items following your rape and defeat is above the standard. Things like tons of skill trees that include things like being able to jump across one, two, or three block gaps with replayable dungeons that get harder each times you play encourages gameplay.
Traits of good feedback include character portraits, changes to these portraits being reflected from gameplay, multiple systems independent of eachother like health and clothing not being tied at the hip, all party members being part of the same porn systems instead of just one party member being in on the porn, and status effects changing the portrait and possibly the nature of the porn entirely.
My go-to example are usually Moral Sword Asagi (RE149951) and Taima Miiko Yuugi (RJ176344), but I'll also throw in Listener and the Nightmare Village (who seems to be gone from dlsite).
 

LustFire

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

For simplicity sake: Flow

A painful reality to H-games is that the fun and appeal comes from the flow of H-content during gameplay. It didn't stop the overflow of RPG games with GO-CGs.

For platformers? I wanna see a game that progresses without H-scenes being something you need to "avoid" (or worse, leads to instant GO).
 

Pyran

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

Honestly? The most fun I had in regards to fighting in a hentai game was in Violated Heroine. It had very good flow, and wasn't menu based.
 

Abandonedacc

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

Battle fuck of course, other stuff its just generic rpg and grind.
 

Enlit3D

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

IMO:

RPGMaker turn based games: There are essentially 2 strategies:

1) Nuke the opponent with all you got and "kill" them before they can "kill" you.
2) Out attrition the opponent, by devoting the majority of the effort to "healing" and "mitigate" opponents attack, while slowly chip away at the opponent's "health".

If neither of the strategy work, then your only option is to grind more and come back stronger, and try again.

Side-view Act games:

I find most of them are too simple/easy/repetitive. The mobs are usually not very challenging yet there are usually a ton of them and/or with a ton of health. Beating them legit feels like a chore most of time just to grind down their HP.

The really bad ones I feel like are not even worth playing due to clunky controls, badly designed mechanics and weird game overs, etc.

So here are the things that I included in my game:

  • Ability to do the raping and be raped -> because you should be awarded for playing the game right
  • AI for player character, and followers -> because sometimes you just wanna relax and enjoy the action going on
  • Simple, responsive and customizeable controls -> because you shouldn't be punished for things not in your control
  • Hit impact and feedback -> because losing health when touching any mob is lame
  • Timing sensitivity -> because gitting gud can be fun, and lvl 1 runs are cool
  • Leveling up and grinding -> because not everyone can git gud
  • Character customization and transformation -> because the perfect girl is different for everyone.
 

Lewdovico

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

One way that's often taken for granted is enemies that can dodge or resist attacks. All too often enemies will just walk directly into your kicks or slashes or whatever, what happened to ones that will just sidestep or outright ignore categories of attacks in specific circumstances?

The blue succubus from Shinobi Girl is a relevant example, it's the only one that dodges. That instantly makes them a more challenging enemy, same with say, a slime that could duck or something.

Different/conditional attack patterns? Ogres in Witch Girl will charge when attacked, while the pot plants will put up a barrier. Creatures that retaliate or pursuit seem smarter, especially because even though they are consistent, they are also unexpected and something that a player can't prep for the first time it happens.


The metric I would use to measure well-designed H-games is determined by ones whose mechanics would stand well even without support from being R-18. The best examples I can think of are Samurai Sacrament and Divine Arms. Both have their flaws, but they are also games you can imagine being able to have gone mainstream-indie. Wish more people would try to follow those examples, rather than following Koooonsoft and somehow still getting it wrong.
 

AnotherLurker

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

I find it all depressingly futile to discuss what makes H-game combat fun, because for every one person who claims in-depth struggle mechanics are nice or the ability for the enemy to cum inside you while you're still trying to fight them off is at worst a revolutionary idea,

You'll have 20 or so mindless cretins talking about the mechanics in a visual novel or an RPG Maker game, and how thrilling it is to watch a still image of a naked woman as the text "she then begins to jerk you off" flies by..

The thing about what makes an H-game combat fun, is that there is no right answer.. If you want a game that's guaranteed to sell and doesn't require much effort, just make another RPG maker game, or a visual novel, and tack in some incredibly vague battle-fuck elements in it. Nobody will say "this games sucks", but you aren't exactly gonna get any 10/10's either, unless IGN is involved somehow.

But if you want a game that might not sell well, or even at all, but yet at the same time is regarded a legend among hentai games across the globe, you have to get creative, and take some risks.. You might get some incredibly hostile or cancerous feedback on the game's development or completion, but you're also likely to get some equally emphatic support by people who see the game for what it truly is.. "Something that there isn't a lot of around right now"..

So I guess what I'm saying is.. If you want to make something "good".. Make something new.. If you want to make something people will like and buy, but is basically the gaming equivalent to dog food, then make something old. And while you're at it, take a moment to distantly salute EA.

Obviously there are exceptions, like Monstergirlquest, where you take a tired old concept, but do something slightly creative with it, or at the very least,
give it a few extra pounds of detail and variety so that it isn't "just another game" even by its own standards.
You can't polish a turd, but you can make a pretty sweet sculpture out of it.

(inb4 negreps for line breaks)
 
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Boxtie

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

To make challenging enemies in 2D games, it usually means adding extra animations.
Might be okay if it's the "cut-out" or "Flash puppet" animation, where the character's limbs are just being rotated but for frame-by-frame animation, it means drawing a lot of actions, like crouching, evading, guarding and parrying.

I've been in that position where I try to give all enemies proper "physics" and I took months to work out all their animations, even the basic stuff, like lying down, getting up and so on.

It's easier to make "stupid" enemies.
 
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Mamono Assault Force

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

For simplicity sake: Flow

A painful reality to H-games is that the fun and appeal comes from the flow of H-content during gameplay. It didn't stop the overflow of RPG games with GO-CGs.

For platformers? I wanna see a game that progresses without H-scenes being something you need to "avoid" (or worse, leads to instant GO).
This. Game Overs are traditionally a punishment for losing. If losing is something you want, it sends some awkward signals when it's also something you don't want. The better RPG games I played with GO-CGs was the few that just seemed to continue the game when you lost. I forget which one it was, but the creator took notes from Taimamin asagi, spell check. Your characters got battle raped when stripped, pounded quite ferociously if fucked in this way, and game overs were your character being raped in various ways depending on where you lost, before your character ran around solo trying to find her friends who were also being brutally fucked.

Then the game just continued. It's still kind of a hassle in that format, but it's a reasonable hassle, since you lost a fight against the bad guys. It's nice to just be able to keep playing instead of fork your way through a save game list.
 

azurezero

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

I find it all depressingly futile to discuss what makes H-game combat fun, because for every one person who claims in-depth struggle mechanics are nice or the ability for the enemy to cum inside you while you're still trying to fight them off is at worst a revolutionary idea,

(inb4 negreps for line breaks)
You also can't fight that the majority of sales don't even go to games with well thought out mechanics... the monthly rpgmaker games.
It feels futile to discuss it when good mechanics dont mean good sales
 

Mamono Assault Force

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

I thought some of the best selling games were Monster Girl Quest and stuff like Xenotake? Neither of those are monthly. MGQ had sequels but far apart.
 

azurezero

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

I thought some of the best selling games were Monster Girl Quest and stuff like Xenotake? Neither of those are monthly. MGQ had sequels but far apart.
those are outliers though... most hgames sell on content not gameplay
 

tontoman

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

I thought some of the best selling games were Monster Girl Quest and stuff like Xenotake? Neither of those are monthly. MGQ had sequels but far apart.
A question to ask is why MGQ was succesfull.

I think one big problem is by its nature, combat is repetitive. If you’re blowing heads off in an action games again and again (CoD, quake etc.) , no prob as it’s short and sweet. But in an H game, can’t be too quick if combat or Win/Lose is part of your content, but if it’s long it quickly becomes repetitive. Thinking more of the RPG maker style games.

The big advantage of MGQ is that as combat was the game, and not a time sink to get to content, each encounter and fight was new. Take the exact same content, like a slime girl encounter in the game, do it 20 times to get from A to B and see if folks are still a fan of the ‘combat’ in MGQ.

Some of the more popular versions of the generic RPG Maker games have mechanics like clothing damage. At least with things like that carrying over from battle to battle (so long as it changes the combat), it can make a battle mean something, it can also adds variety. But there’s a limit how much that can stretch encounters out.

But if each battle is exactly the same (repeated enemy etc), regardless of the details of the combat mechanics, it’s just a time block to more content once someone has become bored.


For things like platformers, one of the things is even with good platformers... buyers have to still LIKE platformer games. Because if they don't, and they brought the game for H, it's all just frustration.
Maybe the 'why' games with lots of content but crap/easy game mechanics sell well is because there are far more people looking to buy porn, then there are looking to buy a good platformer (which happens to have some H in it).
 
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Boxtie

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

I remember a Japanese friend who told me that he loves to see things from the perspective of the girl, getting caught and put in uncomfortable situations.

There's an appeal to games where the H content is mostly getting caught in the middle of battle or being defeated.
In the shoes of the girl, you try your very best to move forward and avoid capture.
Getting caught when your guard is down gives these people a thrill.

I prefer seeing things from the perspective of the captor who captures girls but it's interesting to look at people who want to see things from the girl's point of view.
 

azurezero

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

I remember a Japanese friend who told me that he loves to see things from the perspective of the girl, getting caught and put in uncomfortable situations.

There's an appeal to games where the H content is mostly getting caught in the middle of battle or being defeated.
In the shoes of the girl, you try your very best to move forward and avoid capture.
Getting caught when your guard is down gives these people a thrill.

I prefer seeing things from the perspective of the captor who captures girls but it's interesting to look at people who want to see things from the girl's point of view.
captor gameplay seems really fun and interesting but i can't do it because i feel it would be a bit more morally wrong...
 

Noble 6

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

I remember a Japanese friend who told me that he loves to see things from the perspective of the girl, getting caught and put in uncomfortable situations.

There's an appeal to games where the H content is mostly getting caught in the middle of battle or being defeated.
In the shoes of the girl, you try your very best to move forward and avoid capture.
Getting caught when your guard is down gives these people a thrill.

I prefer seeing things from the perspective of the captor who captures girls but it's interesting to look at people who want to see things from the girl's point of view.
From the girl's point of view, that's Moral Sword Asagi. But a captor version of that would be pretty interesting. It would be difficult to make though, because you'd have to frame it to either only be chasing on girl, or have a shitton of art for all of the porn of all the girls you capture.
That's one of the benefits of having a small cast of girls, in that you have to draw way less. Disembodied dicks don't need hair, faces, etc.
 

Drakeero

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

Saying that "game overs are a punishment for losing and should be avoided" doesn't sound entirely accurate to me. I remember games like Shadow Gate where a major part of the game was experiencing a very large number of creative deaths as you tried to learn and solve the puzzles of the game.

That said, for those who enjoy GOR, there is that fundamental difficulty with game design. Games are supposed to be "won" and if you win you don't get the GOR that you like. At least, if you use arcade or FPS game design.

If you start looking at other genres and odd sorts of art games there's a bigger emphasis on immersion, atmosphere, things like that. I think this is particular true of survival horror games. If you think about it, in survival horror games you're never really in a position of power or dominance. "Winning" usually consists barely escaping and triumphing over the monster(s) by some elaborate concoction of plot points and choices rather than martial prowess.

This sounds awfully compatible with the style of the GoR sub-genre. Succubi instead of vampires, monster girls instead of scy-fy awful-CG monster of the week, things like that. Many of the gameplay innovations that benefit the survival horror genre may also benefit the GoR genre. In particular, horror games build tension and atmosphere before the opponent brutally kills you if you fail to do some special task the right way. For a GoR H-game, the lead-up to being brutally fucked is just as important because its a form of foreplay for the player. Think about it, its why its so much nicer to be able to easily re-encounter enemies in the gameplay environment than in the gallery.
 

Boxtie

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

@azurezero @Noble 6

There's a free RPG Maker game called "DIDnapper", where you experience both sides (captor and captive), due to the protagonist being a girl.
The story is about a princess who was cast away from becoming queen and is forced to do work for a kidnapping guild to survive.

You kidnap girls for ransom either via stealth or turn-based combat.
But if you lose in battle, your character gets imprisoned and have to play a "rope-escape" mini game to break free.
You only truly get a game over if you can't free yourself in time or under special circumstances.

However, despite the game focusing heavily on bondage, there are no H-scenes (no nudity nor sex).
But I saw this game included in an RPG Maker games list here, so I thought it's okay to mention it.

The latest version of the game (1.7 onward) features character designs and illustrations by SharpFFFFFF (Pixiv ID=8109579), who did the illustrations for the Mahou Shoujo Western Girls web series and visual novel (DLsite Product ID=RE184574), another non-H bondage series.
 

azurezero

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Re: [Discussion] What makes H-game combat fun?

@azurezero @Noble 6

There's a free RPG Maker game called "DIDnapper", where you experience both sides (captor and captive), due to the protagonist being a girl.
The story is about a princess who was cast away from becoming queen and is forced to do work for a kidnapping guild to survive.

You kidnap girls for ransom either via stealth or turn-based combat.
But if you lose in battle, your character gets imprisoned and have to play a "rope-escape" mini game to break free.
You only truly get a game over if you can't free yourself in time or under special circumstances.

However, despite the game focusing heavily on bondage, there are no H-scenes (no nudity nor sex).
But I saw this game included in an RPG Maker games list here, so I thought it's okay to mention it.

The latest version of the game (1.7 onward) features character designs and illustrations by SharpFFFFFF (Pixiv ID=8109579), who did the illustrations for the Mahou Shoujo Western Girls web series and visual novel (DLsite Product ID=RE184574), another non-H bondage series.
im aware of didnapper... but i feel more okay with rape fantasy where we take the role of the victim than the attacker... I'm not sure i could justify making a game where you play the attacker...
 
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