Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

[censuur]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

More importantly 'fair use' is US law, which may or may not be entirely irrelevant.

Fair use is also only applicable for use which provides some kind of commentary on the original product, be it feedback, criticism, satire, praise or w/e, it's allowed to do a trace of a drawing, make some improvements and use the result in such commentary but selling it as a standalone product or distributing it in any context outside of commentary is not allowed.

 

[djweish]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

Here's a lawyer's article about how legal tracing images is:

You must be registered to see the links

Basically, the law is not very clear cut here. To claim infringement you'd need to show that they "copied protectable elements of the work" and that their work was not fair use.

You can't copyright things in the public domain, facts or ideas. For example, you can't copyright the proportions of a human body. If pussy saga had traced a photo of a woman just to use the proportions and changed everything else, that wouldn't be illegal. (It looks like they've copied a lot more than that in many cases, though.)

For fair use in an American court, some of the important elements would be "How much did you transform the source image?" - did you add value to it? And "What impact will your work have on the market for the source image?" - are people likely to buy your image instead of the original, hurting its sales? It's again pretty subjective, and comes down to the decision of the court.

 

[Nimrod]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

Yeah, the only thing that really matters in fair use is how good your lawyer team is.

 

[Kyrieru]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

Artists persuading legal action is up to them, but chances are they have neither the time nor the resources to try. It can get expensive.

Considering that gamers give companies shit for anti-consumer practices, then I see no reason to stop people who want to raise hell about this on Nutaku. If Nutaku doesn't care, then it's up to people to show them that their customers do.

 

[AGamerPassingBy]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

I'd just want to stress that the issue here is that people are selling a product they did practically no work on.

I concur with this, can't stress this enough.

Yeah, the only thing that really matters in fair use is how good your lawyer team is.

Goddamnit, this truth hurts.

Artists persuading legal action is up to them, but chances are they have neither the time nor the resources to try. It can get expensive.

I see, i guess if the profit that could be gained by the artist but lost thanks to other's illegal actions really is lesser than the amount needed to actually reverts that illegal actions, then most artist won't be compelled to actually seek justice.

 

[Darthan]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

Yeah, the only thing that really matters in fair use is how good your lawyer team is.

In America this applies to pretty much all law sadly.

On topic, I really think that this would be better brought to Nutaku's attention than having a bunch of people rant about it here. As for the game's popularity on Nutaku, give it a few days for their new release and it will drop in the rankings, happens to every new game and new game update.

 

[Perfeccia Ars]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

The public should make it's stance on this issue very clear. While legal action is followed by the artists this is something that the public should participate in because it affects the customers, there's money involved and can set a precedent on the quality of future products. If the least that a post in a forum can do is add to the view and voice of "no, we don't like this" then you should say it and make noise. Ignoring it and expecting that the issue is solved in closed doors is not a solution to the problem because there's no precedent in law that supports the artist in this subject (There are no rulings in the matter by judges as far as I know) and a company like Nutaku can and will ignore it if the small amount of bad PR can be ignored to keep the flow of money from a product like this, same thing applies to the artist.

This is the adult industry after all, where most of us don't take it seriously when something like this happens because we're used to shit treatment and quality.

I seriously hope this isn't thrown under the carpet, ripping assets and plagiarism should not be normal in the industry but is going rampant lately like in adult flash games. It's strange when you have to remind yourself that this stuff is the exception, not the rule.

 

[censuur]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

The public should make it's stance on this issue very clear. While legal action is followed by the artists this is something that the public should participate in because it affects the customers, there's money involved and can set a precedent on the quality of future products. If the least that a post in a forum can do is add to the view and voice of "no, we don't like this" then you should say it and make noise. Ignoring it and expecting that the issue is solved in closed doors is not a solution to the problem because there's no precedent in law that supports the artist in this subject (There are no rulings in the matter by judges as far as I know) and a company like Nutaku can and will ignore it if the small amount of bad PR can be ignored to keep the flow of money from a product like this, same thing applies to the artist.

This is the adult industry after all, where most of us don't take it seriously when something like this happens because we're used to shit treatment and quality.

I seriously hope this isn't thrown under the carpet, ripping assets and plagiarism should not be normal in the industry but is going rampant lately like in adult flash games. It's strange when you have to remind yourself that this stuff is the exception, not the rule.

Except that's a horrible idea, the public getting involved in matters they have little knowledge or understanding of leads to some kind of mob mentality where whoever is better at riling people up gets their way. It also leads to a very selective vetting process, and asking your customers to fight your battles for you is the quickest way to breed either apathy or mob law. So you'll get up in arms this time and tear down 'pussy saga'. Then it happens again. And again. And again. You'll be playing whack-a-mole trying to keep up with the issue because you're fighting symptoms in conflicts you have no stake in.

In this particular instance, I somewhat trust Lewdgamer and the sources he brought up, and that's a key phrase here. Trust. Because in terms of actual hard evidence there is fairly little that isn't merely speculative or circumstantial, hell for all you truly know it could be entirely fabricated, so you want to encourage starting some shit over something that is believable, rather than something you know is factual.

Those decisions aren't made by the audience, those decisions are made in court.

 

[AceofWind]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

That seems to be the case for a lot of adult games, artwork and animations.

MnF either traces hentai works or puts animated breasts and eyebrows on it. sexhotgames does this too

Famous Toon Facials mostly uses edits of Zone's works

I think I read about JigglyGirls being traces of real porn.

It's not really unheard of for a developer or artist to use assets from others to make stuff. Lots of games hosted on dlsite uses assets from 3D Custom Girl and Nao Takami. And I think I've seen a few western rpgs posted on this forum that uses 3D Sexvilla models

 

[Kyrieru]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

Because in terms of actual hard evidence there is fairly little that isn't merely speculative or circumstantial, hell for all you truly know it could be entirely fabricated, so you want to encourage starting some shit over something that is believable, rather than something you know is factual.

Those decisions aren't made by the audience, those decisions are made in court.

If you don't consider some of these pictures evidence, then evidence is never going to show up in court or otherwise, let alone hard evidence.

Legality isn't really a factor in public perception; If the community think's somebody is being a dick, then that's between community and the dev. The dev can give a response that diffuses the allegations, or take action, but nothing is going to happen if people just say "Well this happen's all the time" and do nothing.

My only real point here is; this isn't a hypothetical example of how people should treat allegations in a public space. It's a specific case with details people can examine, and come to their own conclusions about. "it could be fabricated" is a valid initial response, but after a certain point you have to step away from the hypothetical and come to a conclusion with practical results.

Dealing with shitty practices may be wack-a-mole, but the people willing to play is a revolving door too, and just because it's endless doesn't mean that it's pointless, or has no impact.

 

[imercenary]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

That seems to be the case for a lot of adult games, artwork and animations.

MnF either traces hentai works or puts animated breasts and eyebrows on it. sexhotgames does this too

Famous Toon Facials mostly uses edits of Zone's works

I think I read about JigglyGirls being traces of real porn.

It's not really unheard of for a developer or artist to use assets from others to make stuff. Lots of games hosted on dlsite uses assets from 3D Custom Girl and Nao Takami. And I think I've seen a few western rpgs posted on this forum that uses 3D Sexvilla models

The thing is all the "companies" you mentioned are wack-a-mole nobodies. Theres no point in trying to sue someone who will simply disappear (and reappear under a new name) the moment you go near a lawyer. (To say nothing of legal costs)

By comparison, Nutaku (by hosting Pussy Saga) is a big company that can be easily found with a lot of cash. If you get a lawyer to sent them a letter (with serious evidence) of stolen work (for lack of a better word), they WILL take the work in question down.

 

[Nimrod]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

The public should make it's stance on this issue very clear.

I fully agree that creators should fight to protect their IP, but we are just human beings, there are fights we can win, and fights we just can't. I'm not saying one should just let go, but it's important to learn to pick your fights and how much to invest in them.

Customers are not friends or minions, there can be a friendly raletionship with a few of them but overall the vast majority won't even say "hi" to you. They are just there for the content. Most evident when your product has tens of thousands of downloads and you get less than a hundred comments.

My point in the previous post was mainly that the perceived threat is mostly a misunderstanding, since the market for quality and the market for trash does not overlap for the most part, people have enough money for both. The point i'm trying to make now is about perceived strenght, we must always remember that a vocal minority can make a lot of noise but will not equate a strong support to a cause. *cough*PresidentTrump*cough*

Considering that gamers give companies shit for anti-consumer practices, then I see no reason to stop people who want to raise hell about this on Nutaku. If Nutaku doesn't care, then it's up to people to show them that their customers do.

The hard truth here is that gamers give triple A companies shit when they chose to adopt models common in the trash market, not the other way around. More people get pissed off when they see their high quality stuff going down. What i mean is that in general it is highly more likely for poeple to start fighting you, for adopting trash models for your stuff, in response to the people not supporting your cause. Then they are to rile up against some trash ghost they don't care about or never bother to check, because it's copying your style.
Perfect example of this are the Fine Brothers on youtube trying to copyright the term React in response to the huge amounts of channels "stealing" their model. In the end they were forced to backpedal and apologize by their own audience, unsubscribing en masse.

In my humble opinion, the best course of action is what lewd gamer did with the opening post, do your research, bring up the issue, spread the word and let people pick their fights on their own without pushing too hard.
In no case one should try to put the blame on the people, not acting in your best interest. Never expect people to have your back, never be fooled by a vocal minority, it antagonizes your customer base and i can promise you that some dumb fuck tracing your art for a quick buck, is a drop in the ocean compared to the losses you get for pissing off people. Because we all know they are the reason the trash market thrives, they know and they don't care as long as their get their fix. But as much as they want trash, they still want your stuff too, so long as you don't give them reasons to ingore you or worse troll you.

The real threat here is not tracing or rip offs, but the slumbering mob of content addicts, be very careful about who you pick a fight with.

 

[Kyrieru]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

@Nim:
Kind of pointless to compare this to youtubers making false accusations about copying styles. In this case there are clear cut examples stolen work. It's not a matter of style, or the hypothetical of false accusations and their conciquences.

A lot of people really seem to be overthinking this -__-

 

[censuur]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

@Nim:
In this case

Allow me to emphasize the point there. Yes, this case might be fairly clear-cut, but you're faced with two bad choices when you involve the public here.

One; The public gets involved just this once, the offenders might or might not rectify the issue, the problem itself will persist in hundreds of different cases while those involved here pat themselves on the back for 'doing something' while accomplishing nothing.

Two; the public gets involved and starts a full scale shitstorm on the issue, despite lacking the knowledge and ability to assess truth from false on the matter endless cases of this get brought to light, camps are formed, people point fingers back and forth and it's non-stop he said she said because ultimately people care more about the activism and being a part of something, rather than actually getting involved and solving the greater issues in a constructive manner.

See shit like GamerGate if you want an example of how a disorganized protest can go horribly wrong on so many different levels. See shit like Youtube and how content creators organize against false DMCA and claims or content theft to see an example of what WILL work and what does actually lead to constructive solutions.

 

[Yoshiiki]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

Allow me to emphasize the point there. Yes, this case might be fairly clear-cut, but you're faced with two bad choices when you involve the public here.

One; The public gets involved just this once, the offenders might or might not rectify the issue, the problem itself will persist in hundreds of different cases while those involved here pat themselves on the back for 'doing something' while accomplishing nothing.

Two; the public gets involved and starts a full scale shitstorm on the issue, despite lacking the knowledge and ability to assess truth from false on the matter endless cases of this get brought to light, camps are formed, people point fingers back and forth and it's non-stop he said she said because ultimately people care more about the activism and being a part of something, rather than actually getting involved and solving the greater issues in a constructive manner.

See shit like GamerGate if you want an example of how a disorganized protest can go horribly wrong on so many different levels. See shit like Youtube and how content creators organize against false DMCA and claims or content theft to see an example of what WILL work and what does actually lead to constructive solutions.

Can't disagree.
Seeing as some people in this thread are already mixing tracing (bootlegging, blatantly copying) with referencing (using models, photos, etc as reference) and simply copying characters for other purposes (like "hentai" parody or r34), this does sound like a nice setup for a witch hunt.
Just going by stuff inside posebooks that I mentioned earlier, people would be ""shocked"" to know how many of those poses you can find in different manga. But then again, they used it as reference, that's why artist buy those type of books. Damn, you can even find a traced photos in manga (cities, food, cars, etc) and there is a huge number of such stock stuff for sole purpose of this.
Difference is, artists buy those and use them exactly like that.

Making a whole game out of ripped assets that have been slightly tweaked? Nope.
There is no need for grabbing pitchforks and torches. Simple "I am disgusted, not going to play it and give it a single buck" is enough, nothing speaks so well as income hitting rock bottom after stuff like this comes to light.

I think discussion is fine, but in the end, patience is needed. Give it some time, we will see nutaku comment/reaction on this.

As for studios that got their arts ripped... Assuming they are aware now, whatever steps they plan on taking, it's their choice.

 

[AGamerPassingBy]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

So, are there any update on Nutaku's side about this?

Checking on them a little, PS is still sitting there on the Top-Ranked entry, fine.

 

[censuur]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

Not surprising in the slightest. Remember all that talk here about Breeding Season and Cloud Nine? Thousands of dollars on a project involving well known scammers etc. Yea the people who throw large sums of money at this kind of shite don't think twice about it, and most certainly don't talk or read about it on online forums, they log on, drop some money and masturbate.

Even if everyone that heard about this issue would start a protest that'd cost them less than 10% of their bottom line (and that's a generous estimate of the impact we'd have) and even for a site like Nutaku it's more sensible to wait until this blows over than to sink one of your biggest money makers. At most they'll check with legal council which will tell them to say nothing at all on the matter and wait a week for people to forget all about it, and that's how it's going to go down.

The worst part is that in the end there's a good chance small-time developers are going to be taking the hit here, people who will boycott Nutaku over this won't be buying or supporting their games on the platform, and it's those niche and small time projects that people mostly hear about on forums like these.

 

[Kyrieru]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

The fact that people think it's okay to sell stolen artwork "because it happens all the time" and compare it to individuals tracing for fun or using reference just reaffirms to me why it's worth bringing attention to this sort of thing when it happens.

Nutaku isn't going to do anything without a reason, they make too much money to care. Whether they welcome behavior like this or adopt standards depends entirely on how the community reacts, and how the subject is covered by other outlets. Stuff like this is only normal so long as it's allowed to be normal.

So yes, there is a reason. People can encourage shitty practices as much as they want, but I for one want the H-industry to evolve into something with some damn self respect.

 

[DawnCry]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

The fact that people think it's okay to sell stolen artwork "because it happens all the time" and compare it to individuals tracing for fun or using reference just reaffirms to me why it's worth bringing attention to this sort of thing when it happens.

Nutaku isn't going to do anything without a reason, they make too much money to care. Whether they welcome behavior like this or adopt standards depends entirely on how the community reacts, and how the subject is covered by other outlets. Stuff like this is only normal so long as it's allowed to be normal.

So yes, there is a reason. People can encourage shitty practices as much as they want, but I for one want the H-industry to evolve into something with some damn self respect.

I think exactly the same as you. Take my positive rating good sir.

 

[censuur]

Re: Multiple Cases of Traced Art Found in Pussy Saga

The fact that people think it's okay to sell stolen artwork "because it happens all the time" and compare it to individuals tracing for fun or using reference just reaffirms to me why it's worth bringing attention to this sort of thing when it happens.

Nutaku isn't going to do anything without a reason, they make too much money to care. Whether they welcome behavior like this or adopt standards depends entirely on how the community reacts, and how the subject is covered by other outlets. Stuff like this is only normal so long as it's allowed to be normal.

So yes, there is a reason. People can encourage shitty practices as much as they want, but I for one want the H-industry to evolve into something with some damn self respect.

We've been over this already. You want a respectable industry you don't do so by starting activism on forums, you want respect, then you organize yourself in such a way that you can defend your interests against those that would impeach or infringe your rights.

I don't think anyone particularly thinks it's okay to sell stolen artwork, as I've been saying all this time though you're not going to get people to care to the point where they will take any kind of action, and that is assuming you can even get to them in the first place The people on this site are going to be an absolute minority for services like Pussy Saga, and I've already explained how that works.

Nutaku isn't going to shut down a big source of their income because some random people assert that artwork has been stolen, as mentioned before actually proving that beyond just implication is a really messy affair, and Nutaku isn't going to lose hundreds of dollars because some guy said some stuff was stolen and showed them some pictures. Again actually proving this is a messy affair. The crux of this issue is that copying artwork is not stealing and this is something artists need to be very aware of, copying artwork is copyright infringement, and in the eyes of the law those are two extremely different concepts. There's a reason piracy of software, video games, movies and music on the internet is so damn difficult to reign in, because the laws required to do so simply don't quite exist.

So as I've been saying all this time, work on a real solution rather than throwing together a disorganized mob of people with no vested interest in the issue and no real understanding, work on organizing a legal front against practices such as these, take examples from Youtube content creators who had to do the same, and make sure you properly research what your rights and responsibilities are when it comes to protecting your intellectual property, because ultimately doing so is the responsibility of the artist, and it's not up to their audience to compensate for them not doing so, that's not creating a respectable industry.

I'll end by stating clearly that I'm not here to project apathy or some such nonsense, I think this is a legitimate issue, and I'd like to see an industry like this, that can exist without some of the more ridiculous content and artwork censorship out there and be profitable for the people that work hard at it, hence my insistence that this be solved right rather than putting another bandage on a festering wound and pretending it's treated.