(Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

[alpha10th]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

Wat? SAW actually makes it even more apparent that Deine is a superior! At what heavies should be doing, tanking, that's it.)

Yes, it is very obvious to me their rolls differ, thank you very much.
Each unit has situational strength. So if you want to tag $ on units, you can't just look at one thing.

When I score units, the most important properties are:

1. How powerful - Who's got the larger number?
2. How useful - How often/easily can/will you whip it out?
3. How unique - Can it be replaced by something better or equal?

This is judged especially strictly for blacks.
In my book, SAW Diina beats Deine 3-2

Edit - Guess who gets the overall top score over all units?
It's too easy so you don't any cookies.

 

[Lucifina]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

2. will you whip it out?

Yahoo.

 

[Karsuman]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

DMM player here to talk units.

1. How powerful - Who's got the larger number?
2. How useful - How often/easily can/will you whip it out?
3. How unique - Can it be replaced by something better or equal?

This is judged especially strictly for blacks.
In my book, SAW Diina beats Deine 3-2

Frankly not sure where Dina decisively beats Deine here. By all metrics of black unit strength, Dina is not really a great standout in any of these categories you've given, especially if we are talking about a whale's barracks.

As of the current metagame, Deine is generally considered more useful in the most difficult content, and has better performance in afk strategies too. Dina certainly is useful as a blocker/pseudo-mage armor/AW sailor in standard maps and is generically usable like most blacks, but ordinary event maps aren't the best way to gauge a unit's power. Her SAW is only barely less vanilla then Sybilla's too, so it's not especially hard to replace.

So no, I don't think Deine users will suddenly feel regret about getting her instead of Dina short of the latter getting more buffs. Save a preference for lolis, anyway.

(this is coming from someone with experience using SAW Dina and Deine on DMM).

Edit - Guess who gets the overall top score over all units?

if you're gonna try saying it's Aisha... it's actually B Iris.

For Aisha at least there's a really good platinum unit available for rainbow crystals. The most important aspect - cooldown reduction - is on all rearguards, and this unit has a much better skill than Len too. I've seen her used in the most difficult stages.

You must be registered to see the links

Meanwhile nothing comes close to replacing B Iris's x2.5 area Defense for 80s.

If you want a tank, go Cornelia =)

Also, this.

 

[alpha10th]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

if you're gonna try saying it's Aisha... it's actually B Iris.

For Aisha at least there's a really good platinum unit available for rainbow crystals. The most important aspect - cooldown reduction - is on all rearguards, and this unit has a much better skill than Len too. I've seen her used in the most difficult stages.

You must be registered to see the links

Meanwhile nothing comes close to replacing B Iris's x2.5 area Defense for 80s.

I will not discredit B.Iris, since she is the closest second to Aisha.
Neither unit can be replaced by anybody in the entire game.
(Remember. I said better or equal. Leona can only serve as a very inferior version of Aisha)

And as for scoring blacks, don't worry. I am talking about the most difficult maps in DMM.

Let's use the Lv15 Majin events as such example.
So here's a challenge for you.
Go grep all the Nico vids for Lv15 Majin maps.
Then count how many Aisha / B-Iris you see.

You will find more Aisha by just a hair.

Here. I'll do two for you - フールフール and ビフロンス (just b/c I liked these two the best)

フールフール
Aisha
43
B.Iris
42

ビフロンス
Aisha
38
B.Iris
35

Why the difference? (admittedly very small difference, since both are so damn ridiculously broken)
B.Iris is the best in the game with her skill activated.
Aisha just cheats by merely existing.
B.Iris increases survival by the greatest amount in the game.
Aisha just changes absolutely everything in the game.

And since now that we are talking about "the top most super duper difficult maps in the game",
neither Deine nor Dina is qualified to be in the discussion anymore.
Simply comparing between the two, I prefer Dina.

DMM player here to talk units.

Sorry, but I kinda smiled at this.
I don't talk about DMM plays in ulmf. I have non-English communities for that.

 

[Ericridge]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

You guys know what I'm going to do? Start leveling up my Low level silver soldiers for doing Spirit rescue H!

That way I can get meaningful amount of platinum spirits to do some serious leveling!

But in betweens for each Platinum fairy I get while leveling my silver soldiers, those fairies will be goign to my SPica for the purposes of awakening her.

 

[Fayne]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

One run of Spirit rescue H will give you 0.52 Plat Spirits. In other words it'll take you ~11.5 Stamina and 115 Charisma to get one platinum spirit.
Phalanx 2 will give you one platinum spirit every 15 Stamina, costs no charisma, gives additional affection items and is available every day.
In general it's not worth it wasting so much charisma for platinum or black spirits, i. e. don't run any spirit daily unless you want rainbow faries.

 

[Ericridge]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

One run of Spirit rescue H will give you 0.52 Plat Spirits. In other words it'll take you ~11.5 Stamina and 115 Charisma to get one platinum spirit.
Phalanx 2 will give you one platinum spirit every 15 Stamina, costs no charisma, gives additional affection items and is available every day.
In general it's not worth it wasting so much charisma for platinum or black spirits, i. e. don't run any spirit daily unless you want rainbow faries.

I see.. however I have horrifically bad luck in Phalanx 2 though. Its been pissing me off for months now. I usually see only 1-2 platinum fairies after a week of farming phalanx 2. Though today's 3 platinum spirit drops after four runs was extremely unusual.

Plus I"ll get a single SC for 3*ing Spirit rescue H.

 

[Fayne]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

I can only tell you my experiences from back when I started playing and regularly ran Spirit H. For me it was much more frustrating spending a whole day worth of Stamina and half a day of charisma on 4 gold spirits and nothing else. Which happened to me on average every two out of 3 weeks.

But you are free to make your own experiences of course^^ And 3staring it at least once for the SC is always a good idea. I don't recommend leveling silver soldiers for it though. Your two main soldiers (Katie + X, I assume) and two or three min cost bronze soldiers should be enough.

 

[Dragonpaladin]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

Let's use the Lv15 Majin events as such example.

Furfur: 10 (that one's just a nightmare for me)
Amon: 15 3* (Cleared without Corne/BIris/Aisha)

You must be registered to see the links

Vesper: 15 2* (Cleared without Corne/Aisha, BIris got me through 11~15 2*, got Ashera/Vivian now, waiting for revival to get the last star)

You must be registered to see the links

Bifrons: 15 3* (Cleared without Corne/Aisha)

You must be registered to see the links

Agares: 10 (Was busy with work, waiting for revival)

You must be registered to see the links

Both Aisha and BIris are on broken tier (back on the old tier list, broken > top > high > low) so I am not going to bother comparing which one's better.

Speaking strictly from a majin end game point of view, BIris enables more content due to Vesper and Agare's aoe. It also makes Amon's ant rush significantly easier to handle with a sweeper.
Aisha alternatively, makes a whale team noticeably stronger as aggressive support. She does a lot of things (5 target nuke, 30% cdr, 14% hp, etc) including trivializing content outside of Majin. If you need a little more to pass the next level, she will give you a lot more.
Personally speaking, Aisha's stronger, BIris enables more content. But I can argue either way and stuffed both of them into Broken.

I don't talk about DMM plays in ulmf. I have non-English communities for that.

I am sorry that most of the veterans on Aigis are hiding on Discord. But as one of the old veteran who still plays, I am going to have to say you don't have the e-peen? to disregard DMM thread on ULMF.

There's quite a few of us enjoying Aigis due to taking only 10 minutes per day for farming and a few hours of 'having a bad time' in majin. (It's friendly to those who have a busy job) So over the years, you have players like me as well.

Spoiler

It's a long list of images, hence I used double spoilers. I don't know what you consider as 'good at a game' but I probably qualify.
The 'no life/whale' tag applies here too, though I have a stable job and just recently brought a house. Hey, I earn my pay-cheque and waste part of it on gaming. I found it to be good stress relief and challenge outside of work.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

I can probably grab a few more from channel, but that disdain is 'probably' uncalled for. I mean, in Aigis at least, I can say the same to you no?

 

[alpha10th]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

I can probably grab a few more from channel, but that disdain is 'probably' uncalled for. I mean, in Aigis at least, I can say the same to you no?

I did not disdain ulmf. If it sounded like that, then there was a misunderstanding.
Therefore, I will correct myself and just say "I have my fair share of exposure to DMM Aigis elsewhere, though you do not see me in ulmf DMM thread."
Hopefully that takes care of that.

As for the rest, I agree with most of what you said.
Both are broken, the argument is purely for the sake of argument, any proper whale should have and use both.

There's just more reasons for me to score Aisha (just barely) higher per my and other's data.
I consider this important. You, me, that guy are nothing more than a single player; with experiences of own, and entitled to each own's opinion.
But when you are trying to convince someone else, I expect some research.


EDIT: I had to look up what e-peen meant...lolol

 

[Ericridge]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

I can only tell you my experiences from back when I started playing and regularly ran Spirit H. For me it was much more frustrating spending a whole day worth of Stamina and half a day of charisma on 4 gold spirits and nothing else. Which happened to me on average every two out of 3 weeks.

But you are free to make your own experiences of course^^ And 3staring it at least once for the SC is always a good idea. I don't recommend leveling silver soldiers for it though. Your two main soldiers (Katie + X, I assume) and two or three min cost bronze soldiers should be enough.

Yeah my main soldiers is Katie + Phyllis. I'm slightly OCD about fielding duplicates which means I have only one of each named bronze soldiers. Leo and Hector. I don't have hashim and others yet. While I have Crave, Assal, Gustav, and Rosalie. All of them been sitting at base 30 for ages and I've been wanting to see their events for long time now. And I have two level 1 Gadoras to boot.

Side benefit of this soldier training drive is that I'll be able to do harder all male only quests because it'll bring more Silver males I have into the fold.

Plus Silver Fairies drop far more reliably than Platinum fairy curse I've been suffering form for long time. My gustav is already level 40+

 

[Dragonpaladin]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

Therefore, I will correct myself and just say "I have my fair share of exposure to DMM Aigis elsewhere, though you do not see me in ulmf DMM thread."

Glad that understanding is cleared up.

I consider this important. You, me, that guy are nothing more than a single player; with experiences of own, and entitled to each own's opinion.

Probably a bad habit we picked up from discord, call it elitism if you will. (we are bad orz) Veteran player's (whale in this case?) opinion with the actual units and can tackle majin are weighted more there. New player opinion (and veteran without the unit) are taken into consideration as opposed to a deciding factor.

Kar's owned both Aisha (min-costed when time fairy was introduced the 2nd time ... while I min-costed Jerome instead) and BIris for a long time, so he's opinion's (usually) pretty spot on. I know it's kinda silly to take the weight of a person's opinion over actual data, but we are kinda the players the data takes on in the first place.

On the other hand, research and numbers are always facts. I like facts and numbers since they make comparison easy. Then there's in game accomplishment serving as fact, and that's part of research as well.

(PS: Aisha's been on the broken tier forever, BIris was only added after Vesper. Majin is nice in that they open up a lot of options when it comes to black units. Even Sue, who's low tier performed like a top-tier in Bifrons.)

 

[alpha10th]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

Kar's owned both Aisha (min-costed when time fairy was introduced the 2nd time ... while I min-costed Jerome instead) and BIris for a long time, so he's opinion's (usually) pretty spot on. I know it's kinda silly to take the weight of a person's opinion over actual data, but we are kinda the players the data takes on in the first place.

I do consider "collection of opinions" as proper data.
Especially valid ones, such as you two's.

So this actually intrigues me now, since I never visit the DMM thread here.
(The only reason I'm here is b/c I can't talk about MWA with my other group T_T)

Is the general consensus here (and Discord) that B Iris scores higher than Aisha?
Curious b/c I can definitely say the opposite for my other group.

 

[Karsuman]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

It's not so much about being better:worse. It's that B Iris opens far more gameplay pathways.

By that I mean, say that recent black ticket...

The general recommendation was very heavy on 'pick B Iris' for every player that didn't have her, because B Iris WILL enable higher level content.

Aisha is certainly effective and a good choice too, but we considered her a worse choice because she simply won't get you as far in a vacuum. She is stronger with other already powerful units.

B Iris = better regardless of team.

Aisha = better because of an already strong team.

Edit: sorry about hijacking this thread folks, lol.

 

[Dragonpaladin]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

Is the general opinion here (and Discord) that B Iris scores higher than Aisha?
Curious b/c I can definitely say other way for my other group.

Opinion is pretty specific. (ops, Kar posted before me - just more of the same)

In a new player's team (due to black ticket) BIris is ranked the higher over Aisha.
In a whale team with lots of blacks. Aisha is ranked the higher over BIris.

Otherwise than that, it varies. In tier they are the same, but Aisha's held the broken tier forever while BIris was top tier defense/healer.

After the introduction of Vesper (and later Agares) it was an unanimous decision that BIris was moved to Broken tier and Rinne taking the healer top tier. This is why Kar says that BIris enables more content, though I argue with him that Aisha's stronger outside of majin 11 and gives a bigger boost if you can already clear furfur/amon/bifrons. (hence why I say it goes both ways at that point)

Discord wise:

You must be registered to see the links

feel free to drop by

 

[Xovian]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

Kar's owned both Aisha (min-costed when time fairy was introduced the 2nd time ... while I min-costed Jerome instead) and BIris for a long time, so he's opinion's (usually) pretty spot on. I know it's kinda silly to take the weight of a person's opinion over actual data, but we are kinda the players the data takes on in the first place.

On the other hand, research and numbers are always facts. I like facts and numbers since they make comparison easy. Then there's in game accomplishment serving as fact, and that's part of research as well.

I'd say it's largely the opposite here.
In the past at least, numbers have always trumped "player experience" by and large unless that player was you or similar long time player (Petite Soeur comes to mind) of DMM's version. Only then did opinions tend to carry much weight. People are often less kind to whales here on the whole, so opinions can vary greatly for that alone. Least it's a bit less argumentative then it use to be.

I just play nowa days for the most part, probably missed a couple events, but still enjoy the game when i do log in.

Edit: Just realized i haven't updated my team (sig) since May. I'll change it eventually.

 

[alpha10th]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

Very interesting.
Here is the survey we did on "Who would you use the ticket on?"

Spoiler

(Not gonna translate everything b/c I'm lazy, but you can probably tell the top two is Aisha/Iris when I post this)

Though it's just one pic, and is not really "list the black tier's in order",
but that overloaded top two pretty much represents the general flow for us.
(Ofc some idiots voted for lulz. SRSLY? Farne???)

 

[Dragonpaladin]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

(Ofc some idiots voted for lulz. SRSLY? Farne???)

Kar ranked Farne in her own bracket for his 'who to ticket' bracket? (it's a tier *cough*) Q&A.
And not in a good way, so I laughed as well at that comment. Hope it's not Kar's fault though, *continues my laugh*

Here is the survey we did on "Who would you use the ticket on?"

We didn't do a proper survey, just announced 'who you got' as part of the list. Highest was BIris and Rinne was high as well. Aisha in comparison was lower but still popular. We also had a fluffy tail faction so Kayou (who's currently top tier magical damage) was also picked quite a bit.

Note: Our active pop's around 15~20 people. (or 110 regulars - who chatted at least once/visited in last 7 days) so it's quite a small sample.
Most active pop are of the working population and played more than a year though, hence veterans.

In the past at least, numbers have always trumped "player experience" by and large unless that player was you or similar long time player (Petite Soeur comes to mind) of DMM's version. Only then did opinions tend to carry much weight. People are often less kind to whales here on the whole, so opinions can vary greatly for that alone. Least it's a bit less argumentative then it use to be.

Just me, Ashurmen, and Petite who can do that now. Kar's one of the older players (1.5~2 years and counting) so he's one of the veterans.
Also +one on whales in general. We pounce on people (and more so for whales who we use harpoons for) who doesn't raise their units and use them effectively. (Despite being whales ourselves - I miss my Dolphin ._. )

 

[exkale]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

DMM player here as well, and these are my core units. By some standards, I am still at the Dolphin level. Definitely not a whale, despite the kind of units I have.

I have not used Dina once. She's going to the trash as soon as I can claim a cost fairy and a dupe copy of her.

Most of these units were essential for me to be able to clear level 10 Majins (minus Furfur) flawlessly without any assistance from viewing other videos. The only Majin event I can actually clear up to level 15 is Amon, which also happens to boast the most variety of units that can be brought into the map, but still has a hefty healing requirement at higher levels. I have a fairly good understanding of the capabilities and the limits of my team. Because of this and watching a bunch of level 11~15 videos extensively, I have come to understand that I need B.Iris more than Aisha. Aisha does nothing for my team, while B.Iris enables my team to challenge content I had no hopes of being able to clear. There are many ways to clear enemies and people can workaround that. You can't work around events where it is balanced around having B.Iris because her utility just can't be replaced by any other unit in the game. This is why I came to the conclusion that B.Iris was always essential because of the way the game is being designed now.

There are many more points as to why Aisha could be picked more. Frequency of appearance in the gacha should be slightly less than B.Iris. B.Iris also has had a long showing since she has existed since the game began. We don't know all the reasons why Aisha was picked. Using Majin appearances alone as a sole contributor to the pick selection holds little weight because Kikyou also makes an appearance just as much as Aisha, but is picked far less than her.

Most people know what their team needs. Some people need guidance. A few people just don't know what to get.

 

[khawk016]

Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)

I have not used Dina once. She's going to the trash as soon as I can claim a cost fairy and a dupe copy of her.

2nd aw could make dina amazing