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Re: OOC thread

Honestly I'm kinda partial to the modern setup (I'm assuming oWoD of course :p )

That said, a little less rigidity would be nice too. Yes, each clan greatly prefers a specific organization/path, but it's far from set in stone. Granted, as is, you CAN go against the grain, but it's still very rare. The way I see vampire is typically "a group of stereotypes trying to break free from a world of stereotypes". A straight example of a Ventrue, Lasombra, what have you is fun, sure, but as of late I find most of my new chars as "An X that should have been embraced Y." Marie is kind of one example, but in my in person group I'm getting ready to play a modern Brujah that might be better suited as a Ventrue, and have previously helped someone play a Camerilla Tzimisce, though the other GMs in the group who claim to be rather flexible were almost in shock at that idea :p

Overall, I like the factions we have, and if I was going to make a change I would define them more in terms of ideology, and let the clans flow free a bit more. Camerilla values safety through masquerade, Sabbat values power and seeks to eventually openly rule mortals, Anarchs don't give a damn, with a side of vampiric democracy. Probably a lot more individualized cults too, but localized. IIRC it's on page 195, but the golden rule of any White Wolf game is whatever works ;)
 
Re: OOC thread

Also Ronny I'm not quite sure what you're saying in my latest post. It sounds like you said both yes AND no to age mattering. I assume the explanation is more important but the first sentence has me confused because it kind of contradicts that.
 
Re: OOC thread

What OAMP says is true, but NWoD Vampire did that too, and it made it sort've weird to dilineate between Clan loyalty and covenant loyalty.

The former is a bigger thing in OWoD. Your family has an expectation of you. Other people majorly color their opinion of you by your vampire race.

In the NWoD, it always felt like the clan had very little importance compared to the ideologies. Which were more numerous, while clans were less numerous.

Any suggestions I have for the clans and their antitribues can be taken along the lines of general expectations given the stereotypes of those clans. Of course, an individual can be whatever they want, belong to any club that will have them. But I didn't want to lose that clan stereotyping, because I felt it had a certain feel to it that was good and made sense. Clan politics always seemed like a cool thing.
 
Re: OOC thread

I think a balance shouldn't be too hard. I go into it with the mentality of allowing players freedom. Emphasis can be placed where the player wants, through use of backstory, and the GM can do the same for NPCs/the adventure in general. It actually might make things a lot more interesting by providing more variety and more possible character motivation traits.

The way I see it on a personal level might be more akin to seeing clans as nationalities, metaphorically (which could serve as perhaps an interesting distinction for the modern era, as compared to a more traditional view for the middle ages revolving around family line). Old loyalties can die-hard, but even within a group, you have the sub groups. For example, while you can tell a lot about someone by what country someone grew up in and the culture they were exposed to, even then there's a big difference between an NYC socialite and a rural Iowa farmer. Both would come off strongly American to a visitor from Europe, but both would also be drastically different.

Some side notes to go with it. Anyone ever play Fiasco? I feel as if the complex relationships there might also give some insight into what I'm thinking about :p

Also I don't remember if I mentioned it, but I ran a campaign where the big bad was Hank Green of the vlog brothers ;) :p
 
Re: OOC thread

I've played Fiasco once. Just a three player game, but it was fun.

I think in OWoD, with clan sterotyping, you still have plenty of room for individuality. An individual from any clan could ally themselves to the two major sects or strike out as an anarch, independent, or what have you.

But to run with your nationality analogy, different people from the same nation are still going to face similar problems if that nation decides to go to war with another nation over some political ideology that isn't necessarily the same one that the individual has. But are you going to do your duty to your clan/nation and go the path that they do? Or do you 'commit' treason and declare for an opposing ideology?

That's what happened with the Cam/Sabbat, more or less. I'm sure there were some Lasombra that didn't think the Sabbat was all hype, but their bloodline was for the most part doing it, and if they didn't go along, they'd be ostracized, hunted, and quite possibly killed by the other side just for being a Lasombra anyway, so why take the risk?
 
Re: OOC thread

Blue, that's basically exactly what I said, but I was saying the subtle nuance doesn't get enough attention and that a lot of people like to bludgeon things into pigeon holes :p

I think there's a lot more individuality going on that most people give credit for, basically.
 
Re: OOC thread

I'm not disagreeing with you either, OAMP. :)
 
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I dunno, it just seems like you're trying to ask me a question or clarification and I'm not getting what it is :p ;) It's the customer service "can I help you?" loop so to speak, heh.

I just feel like this conversation heh.
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Re: OOC thread

I think we were talking at cross purposes.

I don't think I've noticed the same pigeon-holing that you have, but I'm not saying that it couldn't be a possibility.
 
Re: OOC thread

Well Ronny is very good about avoiding it, definitely. Absolutely nothing with what I've said should be taken as a complaint against Vampire here. Indeed, if anything, I'm saying don't change things because it's not broke :p

My in person group thought can be kind of an example. They like to think they're creative and free spirited, but typically it just's "hah, look at my original idea!" and then after that there's "one right way" to do things. It's not like they're a bad group, they just have their niche and stick with it, even if they don't see it themselves as stuck (they'd make a good group of Toreador IRL, legit :p ). As evidence I'd use the fact that they couldn't wrap their head around a Camerilla Tzimisce, as well as the fact that recently playing Shadowrun, my face character (someone who's specialty is diplomacy BS) kept running into railroading brickwalls even though not only was my IC RP BS rather great (if I do say so myself), I had the stats, and the rolls with success to back it up :p

Elsewhere on the net I've seen people get quite on their high horse about what a clan would or would not do, but granted without inserting myself into a given community more I wouldn't be able to judge what level familiarity they themselves might have and/or how serious they are. It could just be cases of people fanboying over a certain clan and putting down others, or it could be someone trying to enforce their own headcanon, it's hard to say.

Point being though, it's mostly how the players/GM handle it, and the vast majority of everyone can't handle it :p. We should consider ourselves very lucky though to have a GM who definitely "gets it", though, and puts player creativity first :)
 
Re: OOC thread

I like the idea of Lasombra not being part of the Sabbat. I've always thought that the two didn't really make sense together. I mean one tends to be snooty nobles that like to manipulate people from the shadows (or from their elaborate BDSM chambers ;) ). The other seems to be mostly a group of crazies that want to run around killing everything in their way, consequences be damned. Though that could be me projecting because I like Lasombra and not the Sabbat. I always thought that if Eliza was still around in the modern era (of course she is :) ), that she would 'masquerade' as a Toreador with an irrational phobia of mirrors and water. Either that or just kinda of have a mansion somewhere on her own. But then, I guess any vampire that was embraced in dark ages could probably safely not give a shit about sabbat toadies or anyone else.

For factions, I've always liked the idea of having small factions that rule within certain cities or countries. It's kind of like the Own the Night setting where we have the Baronies of Avalon, Courts of Love, Sea of Shadows, Fiefs of the Black Cross, etc. Each one has it's own distinctive flavour with different rivalries and certain clans and factions that have prominence there. It might be in one spot, that the Ventrue and Toreador are in control, but if you cross the border, better watch out because who knows what kind of faction politics you might be walking into. Like just imagine what sort of vampires might have been in power in the Soviet Union or Romania during the Cold War era. And North Korea? Totally Malkavian... Even though a coterie will probably never explore more than a couple countries during an adventure, I think it's still fun to think of things that way.
 
Re: OOC thread

@Oamp: I couldn't quite make out what the answer was myself, so I more or less rewrote your post. Hopefully it turned out making more sense this time around.

@Blue: I must say I like that idea, Blue. A lot of similarities to my current favorite to be honest with you. The only change I might suggest is instead of Nosferatu methuselahs who stole necromancy is using the Samedi. Of course that may be where you got the idea from in the first place.

@Everyone: In my opinion OWOD is a bit too rigid, where NWOD is a bit too loose with their delineations. I'm certainly not against either of them being used as they are though, so long as your willing to let your players be creative with their concept. I know OWOD much better than I do the NWOD so I tend to stick with them myself, though I'm not above stealing and idea or two.

Well there goes an hour spent watching Sesame Street. Though I have to say it was time well spent since the yip-yips are still hilarious after all these years.

I have to say it can be difficult at times not to bludgeon things into their holes though, at least as a GM. Of course I do have a lot more characters to run so it can be rather expedient to make the generic Toreador or Lasombra, and describe them as such. Personally the way I try to avoid it is the older the vampire the more stereotypical he tends to get. Which sort of goes along with the whole degeneration into a monster thing.

@Ranger: I don't quite agree that the Lasombra don't fit in the Sabbat. I think the problem was more that the Sabbat were trying to be too many things at the same time. You have a little bit of anarch, some religious fanaticism, some militarianism, some straight up evil, while trying to be similar to the Camarilla. Seriously the Camarilla are supposed to be the one's who accept anyone but it tends to be a lot harder to make a Lasombra antribu than it is to make a Ventrue antribu.

I also agree on the factions thing that Ranger mentions. One of the ideas I like best about the NWOD, is that it works better for local politics. Though i think OWOD did it better when it comes to world wide or region spanning politics. Once again somewhere in between the two is best in my opinion.
 
Re: OOC thread

@ronny: Yeah, Samedi. I couldn't recall the name at the time of writing things down.

I didn't really involve the Giovanni because i figure Clan Lasombra can already do the whole Crime Family-Sorcerers schtick to differentiate themselves from their Ventrue counterparts in the same Camirilla faction. Maybe all the Giovanni name comes down to is a Lasombra revenant family?

So maybe the Nosferatu who become Samedi are involved in some high level diablarie, or possibly go on a safari in the Underworld to steal their own Path of Mortis and in so doing they create the new bloodline? I like the idea of the Samedi in their top hats and masquerade masks, being major players in the Camirilla power structure while leaving the Nosferatu in the muck, causing some serious resentment. Also the Capaddocians probably hate the Samedi too.
 
Re: OOC thread

The problem with the Sabbat as is is that they just slip way to far into the "cartoon villainy" category. Granted, there's ways to justify it, and surely some individuals *are* that way, but it was just handled poorly. If the Sabbat were done "seriously", having the Lasombra pulling the strings would be perfect. They likely don't care about their subordinate's morals, as long as they jump when told. Problem is... they DON'T jump when told. They generally appear as if they do their own thing, make a big mess, and boggle the mind as to how in Cain's name they haven't been discovered yet by mortals.

Granted, in my experience, I've actually more or less ignored the Sabbat when designing adventures... A symptom of the disease I would say though, so to speak. I agree with Ronny's analysis in that regard. Maybe at the world spawning level it could work, but at the local level... the logistics of the operation (which I'm OCD about) just don't pan out most of the time. (Says the GM who sent the team on a red eye flight to Missoula, MT...)

I've also just ignored nWoD, more or less because I didn't like what seemed like a contraction in the number of options available. While I'm all for the freedom of roleplay, obviously, I still wanted tons of unique powers and such :p
 
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I like the nWoD rules streamlining. Wish it could have been somehow implemented with the old setting.

The new mechanics with a vampire's blood becoming more powerful over time were quite neat, and if the length of time increments for growing in power became longer and longer, it would still make diablerie a desirable and forbidden crime.

The reduction of clans to 5 was very sad, done entirely to achieve some kind of needless, convenient uniformity with all their other nWoD lines... five werewolf tribes, five mage traditions, 5 promethian origins, etc. And it completely watered down the the options, like OAMP says.
 
Re: OOC thread

@Blue: I do believe, canonically speaking, that a handful of the Giovanni family were embraced into the Lasombra before Augustus' embrace by the Cappadocians. Don't quote me on it though.

I do also like the idea of the Samedi doing that to those poor nossies, also as you pointed out leads to a bit more conflict with the covenant.

@Oamp: Agreed, they do have that cartoony villain bit down a bit too much.

I prefer less straight up evil villainy and more all the clans and sects being of a grey color. It's more interesting when the supposedly evil Lasombra isn't tentacle raping the party simply because that's what they may have originally been intended to do. Not that there's anything wrong with tentacle rape of course.
 
Re: OOC thread

Also since I didn't want to make too big a wall of text on the last post. This is the idea I had. Think of your general stereotype for each clan or bloodline, exceptions of course exist. This is also the European legacy of kindred, there is also the Laibon of Africa and the Wan-kuei in Asia. Same clans, different names, culture, outlook, and mythology. Followers of Set are the Laibon version of the Baali in this version.

The Camarilla: Pretty much what it has always been. The secret puppet masters hiding behind the masquerade and doing everything they can to make the others do the same. Largest amount of elder.

Ventrue, Lasombra, Toreador, Malkavian, and Ravnos are the main core of the sect. It should be noted that Ravnos have nothing to do with the Roma and though the Ventrue and Lasombra tend to take on the task of leadership, the others are just as common and important to upholding the masquerade.

Daughters of Cacaphony, Giovanni, and "True Brujah" (think DA Brujah) are also included. As bloodlines they are not considered equals with the clan though they are given a shared seat on the inner council and as primogen.

The Anarchs: Born out of the destruction of New Carthage during the fourth crusade. Rabble who's sole goal is to tear down the ante-diluvians and their pawns, by any means necessary. Almost no elders and disorganized.

Brujah and Nosferatu make up the bulk of this sect. The Brujah of course are the only known clan to have lost their antediluvian via diablerie, and the Nosferatu who are actively hunted by their antediluvian via the Nictuku.

Harbingers of Skulls, Tremere, most Antribu, and most Caitiff have also joined the cause of the anarchs for similar reasons as the others. Though the Harbingers and Tremere tend to be better organized.

The Inquisition: Essentially the same as Blue's Covenant. Perhaps a bit more balanced when it comes to the Salubri castes. Focusing on a balance between protecting humanity from their brethren and destroying the true enemy, the Baali.

Assamite judge and executioner castes, and Salubri healer and defender castes. Assamites have little to do with the middle east, though a number of their elders originated there.

Free Gargoyles. Finding difficulty fitting in among any other sect they have taken solace in aiding the few kindred who don't judge them as monsters.

The Sabbat: A lot less militaristic than Blue's Sabbat, instead focusing on infiltration and corruption of the other sects. Their goal being not quite so evil as is commonly thought by everyone else. They don't wish to destroy the world so much as free it from the corruption of the kindred.

Baali. Probably the most factional and least understood of the clans. They truly share the same end goal of their antediluvian Saulot. The protection of mankind.

Independents Preferring to avoid the conflicts of the other sects these clans tend to focus on their own individual goals. Though they are just as likely to be found in cities controlled by other sects.

Cappadocians prefer the quiet solitude of their crypts and necropoli where they continue to study death and the afterlife. Safely protected and represented by their Lamia bodyguards to the outer world they are perhaps the least seen of the clans.

Gangrel tend to either hunt alone or in packs of their own kind. Less concerned with politics and more with combating the threat of the werewolves and fae. Occasionally gathered into great meetings in the natural places protected by their pagan leaders, the Lhiannan.

Tzimisce might have become involved with one of the other sects if not for the great conflict dividing the clan. The Shtriga (old clan) created a monster long ago when they embraced a revenant family with the blood of kinfolk, wholesale. As always both are on the lookout for potential allies in their civil war.
 
Re: OOC thread

dmronny said:
It's more interesting when the supposedly evil Lasombra isn't tentacle raping the party simply because that's what they may have originally been intended to do. Not that there's anything wrong with tentacle rape of course.
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I don't care if the Lasombra are evilly tentacle raping or lovingly consentacling, so long as those tentacles are being used!


And I like your ideas and factions. When you say kinfolk regarding the Tzimisce civil war, do you mean fae?
 
Re: OOC thread

Agreed, tentacle rape for all it is.

I might be using the wrong term, but in this case kinfolk are the mortal descendants of werewolves. Kithain is the term I use for mortal descendants of the fae. Not sure if either one is actually correct.
 
Re: OOC thread

I thought of a great metaphor for how I see it generally. Dues Ex universe, Camerilla are like the (good) Illuminati and the Sabbat are more like the usurping Majestic 12. Fundamentally the same thing, but the difference between tradition and ambition. Not that there can't be ambition IN tradition, but it's the type of small difference that's fun to play with ;)

Also while I've been staying out of the comments regarding reorganization, I find them being put as a core Camerilla pretty funny, heh. I'd see them more as Anarch.
 
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