Your Class

[Hentaispider]

Re: Your Class

About Cleric: Flamestrike and Mass Harm/Heal. Both of them do more damage than Wizard spells of similar levels, and are much more difficult to resist. Unlike Fighters, they can use buff spells on themselves, and unlike arcane casters they can wear armor while doing it, meaning they can actually survive melee fights. With their buffs Clerics do more damage and hit more often than Paladins of similar level, while being able to buff allies, use some offensive spells, debuff enemies, summon help, banish outsiders, and patch the injured party members back together.

And the Arcane Disciple class variant allows them to pick an arcane spell of their choice to add to their divine spell list, so long as it's at least a level below their max spell level, AND they get a wizards bonus feats. And all you give up is turn undead, the largely useless domains, and the completely useless spell conversion.

Though shalt not belittle the true servants of the gods!

Where did you find mass harm? There is no such spell(at least not in the PHB). As for being more difficult to resist, no they're not. The saving throws are calculated with same formula, so they're exactly as difficult. Except wizards have more feats and wealth to spare on improving them. The same goes for spell resistance. Not to mention that when casting 9th level spells direct damage is hardly the most effective way for a spell caster to act.

 

[Alias]

Re: Your Class

I'm pretty sure there's a mass harm in the NWN version of D&D though it's the only version I've played so I don't know if it 'actually' exists. Also, if spontaneous conversion exists in tabletop like it does in NWN (which I think I remember reading somewhere that it does), wouldn't you be able to just convert a mass heal spell?

 

[Tassadar]

Re: Your Class

Where did you find mass harm? There is no such spell(at least not in the PHB). As for being more difficult to resist, no they're not. The saving throws are calculated with same formula, so they're exactly as difficult. Except wizards have more feats and wealth to spare on improving them. The same goes for spell resistance. Not to mention that when casting 9th level spells direct damage is hardly the most effective way for a spell caster to act.

If there's a Mass Heal, then there's a Mass Harm.
And I didn't mean the saving throws, I meant direct resistance. Unless you're a Paladin or another Cleric, it's hard to get negative energy resistance without being undead. And half of flamestrike outright ignores all resistances and damage reduction.
@Arcane casters high level spells: Death and disintegration spells are useless, I've never seen a relevant monster fail their save for any of them, since it's pointless to use them on weak monsters and powerful ones just shrug it off and rip your 4HD characters head off. Wish isn't worth the 5000xp cost for doing anything you can't already do with other spells unless you're fighting a tarrasque, and Time Stop just lets you cast a few more spells before the enemy gets their turn. Unless you want to Gate them into Hell or hide behind a prismatic wall, arcane casters don't have a lot of options besides direct damage in combat.

That's kind of the only advantage arcane casters are supposed to have over divine casters, high damage spells. I'm not saying divine casters do more damage per turn, because they don't, but Clerics aren't useless if you've got someone who actually knows how to use one, rather than just sitting back and healing the fighters.

 

[Pheonix Alugere]

Re: Your Class

About Cleric: Flamestrike(1) and Mass Harm/Heal(2). Both of them do more damage than Wizard spells of similar levels, and are much more difficult to resist.

(1)Flamestrike deals 1d6 per CL up to 15d6, is a level 5 spell, has an area of effect with a ten foot radius, has to deal with spell resistance (Although half of it penetrates fire resistance) and a reflex roll halves the damage.

Conversely, any of the five 'orb' spells (Orb of Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, or Sound) are level 4 spells, deal 1d6 per CL up to 15d6 of their respective elements, are single target spells that require a ranged touch attack, completely ignore spell resistance, and require a fortitude check only allows the negation of a minor side effect.

Also: Vitrolic Sphere deals 1d4 acid damage per CL on the first round, is a level 5 spell, has an area of effect with a ten foot radius, ignores spell resistance, allows a reflex roll to take half damage and avoid secondary and tertiary damage, allows a reflex roll to negate a secondary 6d4 acid damage on the second round and avoid tertiary damage, allows a reflex roll to negate 3d4 acid damage on the third round.

And don't even make me pull out Burning Blood's description.

(2) I don't know what mass harm does, but for something that one ups Harm: (If Mass Harm does exist, then I can just pull out the most fun 9th level spell I know of Transmute rock to lava)

Harm:::::::::::::::::::::::::::Transfix
LvL6::::::::::::::::::::::::::::LvL6
Touch:::::::::::::::::::::::::::medium range, 10 ft radius (Humanoids only)
SR Yes::::::::::::::::::::::::::SR Yes
Instantaneous::::::::::::::::::1 hour/level
Will Half(And can't kill):::::::::Will Negates (Can recheck 1/hour)
Deals 10dmg/CL::::::::::::::aralyzes Targets until Conditions are met(Conditions are allowed to be impossible)






I like my arcane spells...

 

[Pheonix Alugere]

Re: Your Class

Double post to bring a new fact up: I did some searching and the only reference to a "Mass Harm" spell is that it once appeared in Dragon magazine as an addition to D&D 3.0 (I believe it is supposed to be on page 34 of issue 304). Given that it isn't in the 3.5 phb, it's safe to say that the Wizards of the Coast decided that it was too overpowered to have as a real spell.

 

[Alias]

Re: Your Class

Again, what I know about D&D is only from the ports to the PC, but I'm pretty sure that healing acts like harm on undead in the p/p version too. So... cast mass heal on undead = 'Mass Harm' spell. So even if there's no literal 'Mass Harm' spell (and I'm not saying there's not, I don't know one way or the other), you can still make one as long as you have undead.

 

[Hentaispider]

Re: Your Class

If there's a Mass Heal, then there's a Mass Harm.
And I didn't mean the saving throws, I meant direct resistance. Unless you're a Paladin or another Cleric, it's hard to get negative energy resistance without being undead. And half of flamestrike outright ignores all resistances and damage reduction.
@Arcane casters high level spells: Death and disintegration spells are useless, I've never seen a relevant monster fail their save for any of them, since it's pointless to use them on weak monsters and powerful ones just shrug it off and rip your 4HD characters head off. Wish isn't worth the 5000xp cost for doing anything you can't already do with other spells unless you're fighting a tarrasque, and Time Stop just lets you cast a few more spells before the enemy gets their turn. Unless you want to Gate them into Hell or hide behind a prismatic wall, arcane casters don't have a lot of options besides direct damage in combat.

That's kind of the only advantage arcane casters are supposed to have over divine casters, high damage spells. I'm not saying divine casters do more damage per turn, because they don't, but Clerics aren't useless if you've got someone who actually knows how to use one, rather than just sitting back and healing the fighters.

How about polymorph any object? Or Energy drain? Or summon monster spells? Wizards also have tons of spell that weaken the enemy otherwise.

I didn't mean that divine casters are useless, far from it. But arcane casters have more powerful and more offensive options unless fighting against undead.
A cleric can buff himself and other party members and enter melee if he wants, for example. Or he can stay as a spell-slinger in the back. Healing in the middle of the combat is far from the best option the cleric has, unless it's absolutely critical.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: Your Class

Summon Monster 9 and Energy Drain are both in the Cleric Spell List, right in the players handbook. And as for offensive spells: Storm of Vengeance and Implosion. Polymorph any object is exclusive to arcane, but again they aren't all that useful unless you get creative (like turning the balcony they're standing on into a swarm of fiddler crabs), since powerful monsters almost always make the save. :/

I agree, arcane casters DO have a lot more spells for damaging enemies. I'm just trying to say that the power gap isn't all that wide.

 

[Pheonix Alugere]

Re: Your Class

Summon Monster 9 and Energy Drain are both in the Cleric Spell List, right in the players handbook. And as for offensive spells: Storm of Vengeance and Implosion. Polymorph any object is exclusive to arcane, but again they aren't all that useful unless you get creative (like turning the balcony they're standing on into a swarm of fiddler crabs), since powerful monsters almost always make the save. :/

I agree, arcane casters DO have a lot more spells for damaging enemies. I'm just trying to say that the power gap isn't all that wide.

First of all: Polymorph any object (Dragon to Sandwich).

Second of all, there are more arcane damage spells that circumvent spell resistance and quite a few utility spells as well. Additionally, arcane caster have access to a wide variety of buffing spells. For example:

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or

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(Yes clerics can cast it if they have the right domains, but you can still only cast it once a day or so if I know how domains work).

Also:
I meet your

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with a

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and

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(A spell which must be cast using the middle finger for metagaming reasons)

As for

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, I counter with the fact that you have to be over 360ft away (72 squares) or be affected by your own spell making this spell extremely limited in use. Hell, if you're within the area of your spell's affect, your own storm will disrupt your casting.

Of course, I can always block that spell with

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.


Personally, I say the cleric is only better than an arcane spell caster in three aspects: healing, undead combat, wearing clothes.

 

[Shrike7]

Re: Your Class

You seem to be ignoring one of Tassadar's biggest points Phoenix: The fact that any monster worth casting the biggest spells against will most probably (almost definitely) make their save. Take your Dragon to Sandwich example. An Old Red Dragon has an Average Fortitude save of 33, and a minimum of 24. Chances are, your wasting a spell casting against that, nevermind the four age catergories above that.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: Your Class

You're going to try to beat a DRAGONS fortitude save? Good luck with that.

Wail of the Banshee is good for getting rid of a good number mid-tier monsters, but Finger of Death is mostly useless because it only targets one creature, and if you're going to single out one creature it's probably either going to spell turn, spell resist, or make the save. That, and Clerics get Destruction 2 levels sooner. Implosion can potentially kill more monsters than WotB, it just takes longer.

As for buffs, Transformation still leaves you with the d4 hit points per level, and bonuses not much better than a cleric gets from Holy Aura or Greater Visage of the Deity, and unlike an arcane caster the cleric still gets to cast spells.

Personally, I say the arcane caster is only better than the divine at one thing: area of effect damage spells. Divine gets more buffs, many of which affect more than just themselves, and they get about as many utility spells. Even at that, they aren't all that much better. Yes they get more acid spells, and therefore more that ignores SR, but things that have high resistance are rare and usually can be easily beaten to death anyway. The only things I can think of off the top of my head are devils, demons, and drow, all of which tend to make the saves and ignore half/all of a spell anyway.

 

[Kusanagi]

Re: Your Class

Personally, I say the cleric is only better than an arcane spell caster in three aspects: healing, undead combat, wearing clothes.

Nekkid Arcane Spell Caster 4tw?

XD XD XD XD XD

 

[Pheonix Alugere]

Re: Your Class

First: the PAO (DtS) was only mentioned because sometimes dragons roll ones. (Funny battle)

Second: The two spells I used to counter implosion have it to where one has the same potential deaths, and the other (Finger of Death) still deals damage if the save is made. Not to mention that if I go back to the 'Orb' spells I mentioned in my post yesterday don't allow saves for half damage, they only allow saves to prevent a one round secondary effect (And given that at the point where you have access to 9th level spells the orbs spells deal 15d6 damage, they are still good).

Third: the 9th level spells that do deal damage still deal partial.

Fourth: Most 9th level spells aren't attack spells.



When it comes down to it, the point about monsters making saves is invalid, because in combat, 9th level spells aren't as useful as lower level spells.



(Not to mention... odd phrase that. You say not to mention only to go ahead and mention what you aren't going to mention.)



Edit: I guess

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is rather useful because it will keep the target grappled.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: Your Class

You seem to be ignoring one of Tassadar's biggest points Phoenix: The fact that any monster worth casting the biggest spells against will most probably (almost definitely) make their save. Take your Dragon to Sandwich example. An Old Red Dragon has an Average Fortitude save of 33, and a minimum of 24. Chances are, your wasting a spell casting against that, nevermind the four age catergories above that.

THIS!!!!

And if you think turning it into a sandwich is funny, I should tell you about dragon-squirrel....

 

[Kusanagi]

Re: Your Class

THIS
pretty much sums up how many of the battles I fought with my friends when we played D&D wound up:

Every time I got to one HP, I always saved our asses. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. One HP cleric 4tw

 

[Pheonix Alugere]

Re: Your Class

Nekkid Arcane Spell Caster 4tw?

XD XD XD XD XD

I wear rings and cloaks. I have no reason to wear pants.

Implosion can potentially kill more monsters than WotB, it just takes longer.

How is 4 creatures more than 18?

Edit:

The only things I can think of off the top of my head are devils, demons, and drow, all of which tend to make the saves and ignore half/all of a spell anyway.

Once again, I go back to my lovely level 4 orb spells: saving doesn't change the amount of damage the target takes.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: Your Class

Having forgotten the 4 round limit on it, my argument for Implosion holds considerably less weight.

Yes, but the orb spells also do a max of 15d6 damage, and except for sonic and force resistances to all of the available elements are common. And they're short range, 25 ft +5 ft per 2 levels, putting you in charge range.

 

[Pheonix Alugere]

Re: Your Class

... The normal orb spells (Not the lesser versions) require a sorcerer to be at least eighth level to cast them. That means that in their weakest form, they have a range of 65ft putting them on the edge of range for a medium sized creatures charge (And given that most combat situations at this level won't have the caster exposed directly for an enemy, this would probably be enough during that time). Going back to the point where players can cast 9th level spells, the range is 115ft making a charge with a base speed of 57.5 (Essentially 60ft) needed to cover that range. Effectively, monks, barbarians, and mounted enemies can charge the caster at this point if they want to let the warriors have attack of opportunities against them.

Now then, on the topic of ranges:

Short range is ideal for:
Caves, dungeons, interiors of structures, forests, any point in time where you don't have vast amounts of open space.

Medium ranges are good for:
Open plains, defending castles from enemy sieges, large amounts of open space.

Long Ranges are good for:
Boat to Boat combat, ranges so long that melee warriors are completely useless, attacking targets who are far enough away that they can't fight back.

How is being a short range spell actually bad? Especially when a good portion of cleric healing or buffing spells are Touch range spells. (Speaking of which, you share a large number of your buffs with arcane casters. Especially of note, are the entire animal's whatever series.)

 

[Tassadar]

Re: Your Class

Short range spell is bad because arcane casters have no AC and no hit points. Even with False Life, Stoneskin, and the upgraded Mage Armor, you're lucky to get durability comparable to an unbuffed Cleric, since they can wear full plate and have the d8 hit point. The one hickup in that is that besides Dexterity and their spellcasting stat, arcane casters have a lot more leeway to put points into, while Clerics need Wisdom, Charisma, and probably Strength and Dexterity to be get their full combat potential, so clerics might have less constitution than an arcane caster, depending o how stats are done.

 

[thetwo]

Re: Your Class

depending o how stats are done.

Stats should always be point-buy. Or at the least (and only if you're in person) "accept your first roll or point-buy".