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How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and others

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    #16
    Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

    Originally posted by MrMe View Post
    Does anyone else think the majority of games these days treat rape too tamely?
    Yes.

    Honestly, I wonder why it's in a lot of these games. Sure, it's a turn on to some including me within certain boundaries (I've participated in BDSM rape scenes, but that was also a situation where the woman knew what was going to happen beforehand and could end the scene if she needed to), but especially in a corruption game, isn't the idea for the female protagonist to allow her own corruption to rise, not force it on her? More often than not, it's a turn off in these types of games.

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      #17
      Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

      Originally posted by voyeurkind View Post
      Yes.

      Honestly, I wonder why it's in a lot of these games. Sure, it's a turn on to some including me within certain boundaries (I've participated in BDSM rape scenes, but that was also a situation where the woman knew what was going to happen beforehand and could end the scene if she needed to), but especially in a corruption game, isn't the idea for the female protagonist to allow her own corruption to rise, not force it on her? More often than not, it's a turn off in these types of games.
      So much this. I love well-done corruption, but the combination of weird rape logic and grinding for points is a huge boner kill. There are better ways.

      Like I love how seeds of corruption is doing it, where the demon twins want you corrupted and so they seduce and give you a slippery slope. downside is that it's slow to develop the paths.

      But if you won't do that, Crisis Cell did it really well, where the corruption is justified by drugs and brainwashing, and you just automatically get a bunch of hot scenes for playing, and all of them if you win. No bullshit where you have to lose 20 times to unlock scenes.

      Or like era games erasq and eretoho k, where it's the whole game and you pick the pace of corruption, and usually need to convince the girls first. It's like yeah, if you're a sex demon who can give a girl 30 orgasms a night it's a lot more believable. and push too hard and they'll hate you, they even get 「hate seals」 to show it. Which by the way, does anyone else think more games should use tattoos or seals of corruption? That and holy shit Kuzunoha! You corrupt her from shy refined fox noble to perfect lewd waifu <3

      So yeah, lot of potential out there.

      If it doesn't fit the characters tho, I'm fine with not. 100% support you Nomo and Sierra, it's much hotter to have Sabia and Simon fuck on their own terms.

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        #18
        Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

        Originally posted by habisain View Post
        The overall sentiment of this paragraph is something I would strongly disagree with. Immersion isn't something that can be boiled down to simple if/else statements for a start. And there is a kind of absolute arrogance to saying "that's only writing" - the implication being that you do not consider writing to be an asset in a game. If we're talking immersion, writing is critical.

        I mean, take my VPM translation. Is my English version more immersive for an English player than the Japanese version? Yes - and the only thing that's changed is the writing. And to be quite blunt, nothing much happens in most of the H-scenes; I could've replaced the text in the H-scenes with just simple statements like "Brigit got fucked by tentacles. Brigit came because she was fucked.", which is still writing, but not immersive.

        And you even state that it would be a "considerably large" amount of writing. Well, to do writing well, it takes time! When do you want the H-game - in a reasonable amount of time, or far, far into the future?

        If you're going to try and do an immersive game, the programming and the writing are as much assets as the art, music and world building. You've come across as someone who fundamentally does not understand game development - and perhaps as someone who hasn't really considered how one might actually plan a large scale project such as a game.
        The time it takes for me to write 4 variations of a scene based on previous actions of a character that I've stored on 4 different variables in my game, vs making the illustrations, recording/finding sound clips, and maybe animation if we're talking about that kind of game, is comparatively low. It takes perhaps 1-2 hours to write based off of the existing product specification ( the draft that you do when you first plan out your game), vs it can take days to do well done drawings.

        So yes, that's the difference. Maybe English isn't your first language, but it sure as hell doesn't take me a day to write a few paragraphs. The iterations and "nods" to past events don't even need to be essays. They can be done as simple as 3 sentences to add immersion. To make the player feel like that their actions matter, that the game is not a sequence of scenes, but rather one big story about your character.

        I'm not aware of your VPM translation, but your work is not what I'm talking about. All you did was reskin the existing scene without adding logic. I'm talking about storing past events, having a mechanic like Akubar to store "memories" of what's unprecedented to the MC in order to add immersion. Such as writing something like "the last time the orcs beat me until I passed out when I bit one of them". But it acts that much more immersion, and divulges more about the MC's train of thought.

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          #19
          Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

          Originally posted by MrMe View Post
          Does anyone else think the majority of games these days treat rape too tamely?

          It's meant to be a pretty horrible devastating thing to happen to a woman, yet most recent games depict rape as causing the woman to moan like a cheap whore who gets off on being violated and used.

          When the chick goes "Oh, why does does this feel soooo good, oooh" it kinda ruins the illusion.
          Especially as most corruption games start off with this weak personality.
          Despair Labyrinth is one of the few games that does pure maidens right. (its a real shame Takimaru stopped dev on it)


          Its especially weird in games like DiCK where if you loose you get <s>raped</s> surprise sexed and if you win you... have the option to sex the attacker.
          Thats not a rape element, thats a fight for who gets to go on top.
          That's what I mean. Rape is an extremely traumatic experience. Just imagine, not a woman, but a man. Imagine this hunk, general, charistmatic guy getting fucked by these ugly, fat, disgusting women. What would he do in that situation. What would he think?

          I think he would do everything in his power to gtfo. Even if the odds seem bad, even if he's cornered. He's the fucking general of an army ffs. He laughs in the face of adversity.

          Now, you CAN do the opposite route where the MC breaks from the trauma, or at least is affected somehow by it. But in games, and KoD as an example, they don't show it! Where's the reference to the gang rape? It should not be a matter of fact thing. It should be a thing that the character constantly refers to (until it's no longer an extraordinary thing to be gang banged, you know, where she sucks dick for 8 gold?). That's the kind of immersion that I'd like people to do.

          Devs need to research more on how people act in face of terror. How people react after it. How people rationalize their suffering. If a game dev manages to do that. Oh boy. That game will be great even if their art is mediocre.

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            #20
            Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

            Originally posted by xvolverk View Post
            So much this. I love well-done corruption, but the combination of weird rape logic and grinding for points is a huge boner kill. There are better ways.

            Like I love how seeds of corruption is doing it, where the demon twins want you corrupted and so they seduce and give you a slippery slope. downside is that it's slow to develop the paths.

            But if you won't do that, Crisis Cell did it really well, where the corruption is justified by drugs and brainwashing, and you just automatically get a bunch of hot scenes for playing, and all of them if you win. No bullshit where you have to lose 20 times to unlock scenes.

            Or like era games erasq and eretoho k, where it's the whole game and you pick the pace of corruption, and usually need to convince the girls first. It's like yeah, if you're a sex demon who can give a girl 30 orgasms a night it's a lot more believable. and push too hard and they'll hate you, they even get 「hate seals」 to show it. Which by the way, does anyone else think more games should use tattoos or seals of corruption? That and holy shit Kuzunoha! You corrupt her from shy refined fox noble to perfect lewd waifu <3

            So yeah, lot of potential out there.

            If it doesn't fit the characters tho, I'm fine with not. 100% support you Nomo and Sierra, it's much hotter to have Sabia and Simon fuck on their own terms.
            A game that I really like, is Virgin Island. The main character is someone called Rifi and she's kind of a bad ass. She's not a general by any means, but she's a strong adventurer. She doesn't go from a cock sucking slut in 2-3 scenes. When she breaks, it's usually a game over scene (which I'm ok with because they're done really really well). I honestly haven't seen another game like that and I've played both translated and untranslated.

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              #21
              Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

              Originally posted by Cleanfeel View Post
              The time it takes for me to write 4 variations of a scene based on previous actions of a character that I've stored on 4 different variables in my game, vs making the illustrations, recording/finding sound clips, and maybe animation if we're talking about that kind of game, is comparatively low. It takes perhaps 1-2 hours to write based off of the existing product specification ( the draft that you do when you first plan out your game), vs it can take days to do well done drawings.

              So yes, that's the difference. Maybe English isn't your first language, but it sure as hell doesn't take me a day to write a few paragraphs. The iterations and "nods" to past events don't even need to be essays. They can be done as simple as 3 sentences to add immersion. To make the player feel like that their actions matter, that the game is not a sequence of scenes, but rather one big story about your character.

              I'm not aware of your VPM translation, but your work is not what I'm talking about. All you did was reskin the existing scene without adding logic. I'm talking about storing past events, having a mechanic like Akubar to store "memories" of what's unprecedented to the MC in order to add immersion. Such as writing something like "the last time the orcs beat me until I passed out when I bit one of them". But it acts that much more immersion, and divulges more about the MC's train of thought.
              I only used my VPM translation as an example of where only changing the writing improves immersion. As I said, my main concern of what you're saying is that you don't think writing or programming is much of an asset in comparison to "images/music/world building", and as far as I can tell the reason is simply because you believe that you (and hence anyone) can do these tasks.

              What you seem to be saying is that you can boil down extra immersion to a few extra logic conditionals and some extra lines of text, and you think that this is easy to do because it is something that you believe you can do quickly - which is kind of a crap argument. You could also easily improve immersion by adding variants on images, for example, which are also quick and easy to do. However, it seems that because you don't believe you have the skills to do this kind of work, you place a much higher premium on it, and seem to be implying that it's hence more important that writing.

              Similarly, just because you think you could add conditional logic and a few sentences to a scene quickly, it doesn't mean all people can (and incidentally, writing isn't something I struggle with personally - as you seem to imply). Further, adding additional complexity to the code in order to implement these features will increase the burden on testing, and for some developers these features are not going to be a priority that justifies the extra work.

              Hence it would behove you to realise that not all people have what you believe is your skillset, and not all developers have your priorities. To make an immersive game will require a lot of work, probably by multiple people, and all features are important.
              Last edited by habisain; 14th October 2017, 19:45.
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                #22
                Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

                I am only going to comment on topic of rape and corruption a little.
                What do we know about rape victims? Depression, PTSD, suicidal thoughts, disconnection from reality and such. I don't think this could work for MC that should get corrupted. In games like trainers? Sure, because player see this heroine from third perspective of MC and not going too much into head of the female slave/harlot. But it's related to slightly different fetish.
                So, without twisting how it really is, seems like it's just going to be a boner killer. Unless someone gets off to "..." and MC wanting to slit their own throat.
                What a bummer, right? Not exactly.
                Why? Because despite what I just wrote, sexual traumatization can cause hypersexuality (we dropped term nymphomania some time ago). I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but that's an actual thing. Problem is at what age it happened and to whom it happened.
                Now, if we ignore that last sentence so it works for a game, having a heroine turned into a sex maniac, after getting raped many times, isn't that far off.
                And if we don't wanna deal with child abuse and time skip but keep it real? Well, we could go for excessive alcohol/drug usage, some kind of addiction, family issues, mental problems... Even masturbation or sex can get additive and be a cause here.
                How often those things are recurring themes in corruption games, but simplified?

                Same with having a strong, female soldier, that gets captured and starts using her own body to gain something also isn't that far off, even stretching those gains for pure pleasure. Still can be explained by different causes.

                But, corruption games can be better with even a little bit of research, rather than just being progress bar for unlocking scenes.
                Giving a feel of a character, when we have background music, dialogues and CGs that show expressions and simple body language is enough to show what's going on with heroine of a game. It's just an extra work.
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                  #23
                  Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

                  This thread is getting more stupid by the minute. Now youre talking about PTSD after rape in a fucking hentai game...
                  Nobody wants a realistic depiction of rape in these games ffs. They are just an easy way to fullfill erotic fantasies in a safe environment and thats it.

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                    #24
                    Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

                    Originally posted by hugo77 View Post
                    This thread is getting more stupid by the minute. Now youre talking about PTSD after rape in a fucking hentai game...
                    Nobody wants a realistic depiction of rape in these games ffs. They are just an easy way to fullfill erotic fantasies in a safe environment and thats it.
                    Exactly, no one wants that.
                    I should probably be more clear what my intention here was xD
                    So let me try doing that now.
                    There is already a lot of irl related stuff in hentai games, but super simplified, probably without devs realizing that they aren't that far off.

                    A little bit of research on topic would be great when going into heroine's mind, but going too far will just turn it into a boner killer.
                    You can still keep mood swings, but take away shit like depression, make it more sexual and it is good. Rest will depend on writing.
                    So it's actually twisting what we know on the topic, to get that corrupted, sex addicted heroine

                    And for fuck sake, please devs [in general, not specific ones], don't try to explain in-game why it's happening to heroine's mind to make it more "realistic". Use stuff knowing why it's happening, but don't explain it, there is no need xD

                    Again, can make corruption games better, not a requirement. Especially not for people who want to jerk it off to images and just skip dialogues.
                    Last edited by Yoshiiki; 14th October 2017, 21:32.
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                      #25
                      Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

                      I liked the corruption system in
                      http://www.dlsite.com/maniax/work/=/.../RJ088540.html

                      It takes a "few hours" to be fully corrupted. There is no 0 to 60 in 5 seconds raped 3 times and she becomes a slut or whatever. Its not a linear game to where you are forced to become a slut, you have some choice and for the most part can go virgin through the game if you wanted to and never be corrupted.

                      Although in this game it can take hours to be fully corrupted, it has "stages" of corruption.

                      1st part traumatized by rape, and faints.
                      2nd part can sort of shrug off advances but will faint.
                      3rd can withstand prolonged rape but will give up after awhile.
                      4th she can handle one on one for awhile, but a gang bang is too much
                      5th starts to like having sex
                      6th dosen't mind being raped anymore
                      7th looks forward to having sex
                      8th actively provokes others to messing with her in public


                      Its one of those games, that has a decent amount of "altered" lines of text, GoR rape, battle rape, event rape etc etc scenes... that it doesn't bother you too much to "level up" your characters corruption. Its not anywhere as boring as grinding levels, when your grinding corruption, its interesting to see her expression change, and corruption levels rise.

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                        #26
                        Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

                        Originally posted by hugo77 View Post
                        This thread is getting more stupid by the minute. Now youre talking about PTSD after rape in a fucking hentai game...
                        Nobody wants a realistic depiction of rape in these games ffs. They are just an easy way to fullfill erotic fantasies in a safe environment and thats it.
                        Speak for yourself.
                        Rape fantasy is actually one of the most common fetishes about, both on the receiving and dominating ends.


                        And some games have done it well, like some of the earlier builds of VH had Nanako be emotionally devastated for days after the loosing at the onsen.
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                          #27
                          Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

                          Originally posted by MrMe View Post
                          Speak for yourself.
                          Rape fantasy is actually one of the most common fetishes about, both on the receiving and dominating ends.


                          And some games have done it well, like some of the earlier builds of VH had Nanako be emotionally devastated for days after the loosing at the onsen.
                          Well, rape fantasy is a pretty broad fetish. Judging by 90% of hentai games with rape the demand falls into the "woman starts to like it after a few minutes" category.

                          If people were buying games where dicks get bitten off and the woman gets severely beaten, has PTSD and turns literally insane then that would be supplied. But it's not because authentic depictions of rape aren't what most people want.

                          So this thread is just pointless. Kingdom of Deception is not trying to be realistic. It's not trying to make sense. Saying what Sabia "should" do is ridiculous.

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                            #28
                            Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

                            Perhaps rape is forbidden in society, thus we sought out to fantasy to fullfill the desire.

                            But I agree in general developers should put more thoughts into the world and their characters. I don't play the game, though creators should use the art style and the beginning of the story to send their messages about the work they are making, eg more cartoony style for casual plots, realistic style for well...dark/serious stories.
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                              #29
                              Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

                              Originally posted by MrMe View Post
                              Speak for yourself.
                              Rape fantasy is actually one of the most common fetishes about, both on the receiving and dominating ends.


                              And some games have done it well, like some of the earlier builds of VH had Nanako be emotionally devastated for days after the loosing at the onsen.
                              Rape fantasty is less about actually being raped and more about the dominance/helpless.

                              I may speak for myself but when ever I get into a game that has the female characters completely hate the act I get completely turned off, it gets too uncomfortable.

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                                #30
                                Re: How to make a better corruption game: open letter to Kingdom of Deception and oth

                                Originally posted by xvolverk View Post
                                Like I love how seeds of corruption is doing it, where the demon twins want you corrupted and so they seduce and give you a slippery slope. downside is that it's slow to develop the paths.
                                Seeds of Chaos do you mean?
                                Looks like an interesting game either way, rare you get to play the bad guy.
                                My avatar is from Viper RSR

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