Lafate
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Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)
That is what I'm questioning. I mean if you are going to for a skill up sure ya, but... if not I'm not so sure of the efficiency of it.
Xovian
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Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)
I did a fair amount of testing with bronze units to determine if getting them to a specific level (when I use to run P. Gate for units before unlocking current farm maps), and found I always ended up spending more gold to level the units. This curve remains consistent even with higher end base units after certain levels (level of all units combined and being combined are 10 or below). Considering base units of 20 can be gotten, it serves no point to level them to 20 or higher as the cost becomes a deficit in both effort and gold cost.
All of my units, outside of Themis, have either had raw combines of units, of various rarities, or with a single unit and 3 fairies. Getting a consistent rate of 500+ exp per combine when using DH units or higher will be more worthwhile in the long run than lvling other units up for these combines.
The curve only gets higher, the higher the level the unit that is getting the combines is, the higher the total cost becomes. Sybilla at level 70 uses almost 12k gold per combine of 4. Units reach the 10k mark around level 55 per combine.
TL : DR - Only the earliest levels for both unit being combined and those prepped for the combine are even remotely worth the cost. Farmable maps will provided better cost ratios for combines then leveling units up for combines.
It's not efficient to level up units to feed into other units, regardless of rarity, as you end up with a net loss in gold that will be lower then the XP gain received. The exception to this is of course if used with x3 Fairies and a single unit, or if the unit in question is being used for skill up or CR.
I did a fair amount of testing with bronze units to determine if getting them to a specific level (when I use to run P. Gate for units before unlocking current farm maps), and found I always ended up spending more gold to level the units. This curve remains consistent even with higher end base units after certain levels (level of all units combined and being combined are 10 or below). Considering base units of 20 can be gotten, it serves no point to level them to 20 or higher as the cost becomes a deficit in both effort and gold cost.
All of my units, outside of Themis, have either had raw combines of units, of various rarities, or with a single unit and 3 fairies. Getting a consistent rate of 500+ exp per combine when using DH units or higher will be more worthwhile in the long run than lvling other units up for these combines.
The curve only gets higher, the higher the level the unit that is getting the combines is, the higher the total cost becomes. Sybilla at level 70 uses almost 12k gold per combine of 4. Units reach the 10k mark around level 55 per combine.
TL : DR - Only the earliest levels for both unit being combined and those prepped for the combine are even remotely worth the cost. Farmable maps will provided better cost ratios for combines then leveling units up for combines.
Lafate
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Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)
Well it is a single unit combined with three fairies who we are refering to. Which yields something like 9.1k for a male gold units at 30CC20. While it may not be efficient gold wise(which I personally wouldn't want to test). I'm wondering if leveling a gold unit from 1-30 to cc then 1-20 for the combined of it and 3 fairies... would yield as much as just feeding the raw units that made that one unit.
Xovian
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Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)
As you know I've recently done combines for both of my Sybilla.
The first time I leveled the extra Sybilla to level 25. This took 6 or 7 combines of x4 DH units. When I combined this Sybilla into my other with 3 black fairies I went from lvl 60 to 67 in one go. Now just a week or two ago I got a second one which I combined into my non-cr'ed Sybilla. I used her as a level 1 with 3 black fairies. Got her to 65. So 2 levels short of my original. However I did the same 6 combines and they are even level.
The difference was that gold cost wise I did spend more on the second. However, the amount of time and effort to get the first took longer, due to having to spend Cha to get enough units and gold to do the initial combines before the final took place. The amount of gold at the highest levels was a bigger hit than at low levels but it also cost me more then a day to accomplish. With lower rairites this is going to go down in efficiency.
Simply put due to other constraints other then gold, it's just not worth leveling units up by this method. It's cost is still not "cheap", and the time due to CHA regeneration and unit cost is exponentially higher, which makes something that could be steadily done, take far longer then needed. Gold is not hard to get in the game especially since everyone does Mondays (most people skip events for Monday dailies anyways).
Another test if you want a down and dirty experiment.
Take an archer from DH. Combine one of them with 4 others from the same map. Do this 4 time units and combine to an archer from the same map. In total you will have done 4 combines and used 16 units. You then combine the last unit with those 4 you prepped. See XP gain. Now use a new Archer, and just do combines to get to the same level. It will take you less units to get there. The gold cost will also be marginal as the units themselves are over level 10.
Edit*
The short and sweet, if you have a unit under level 10, you can use units to level them so they get to 10, as it's easy and the cost is fairly minor (typically no more than two full combine).
After this due to amount of units, you will start loosing efficiency due to cost and time needed to acquire the units, as well as the resources used to acquire them.
Alright, think I follow what you're asking a bit more. I'll give an example I did recently. Just cuase I thought the higher rarity would make a larger difference then just bronze units.
As you know I've recently done combines for both of my Sybilla.
The first time I leveled the extra Sybilla to level 25. This took 6 or 7 combines of x4 DH units. When I combined this Sybilla into my other with 3 black fairies I went from lvl 60 to 67 in one go. Now just a week or two ago I got a second one which I combined into my non-cr'ed Sybilla. I used her as a level 1 with 3 black fairies. Got her to 65. So 2 levels short of my original. However I did the same 6 combines and they are even level.
The difference was that gold cost wise I did spend more on the second. However, the amount of time and effort to get the first took longer, due to having to spend Cha to get enough units and gold to do the initial combines before the final took place. The amount of gold at the highest levels was a bigger hit than at low levels but it also cost me more then a day to accomplish. With lower rairites this is going to go down in efficiency.
Simply put due to other constraints other then gold, it's just not worth leveling units up by this method. It's cost is still not "cheap", and the time due to CHA regeneration and unit cost is exponentially higher, which makes something that could be steadily done, take far longer then needed. Gold is not hard to get in the game especially since everyone does Mondays (most people skip events for Monday dailies anyways).
Another test if you want a down and dirty experiment.
Take an archer from DH. Combine one of them with 4 others from the same map. Do this 4 time units and combine to an archer from the same map. In total you will have done 4 combines and used 16 units. You then combine the last unit with those 4 you prepped. See XP gain. Now use a new Archer, and just do combines to get to the same level. It will take you less units to get there. The gold cost will also be marginal as the units themselves are over level 10.
Edit*
The short and sweet, if you have a unit under level 10, you can use units to level them so they get to 10, as it's easy and the cost is fairly minor (typically no more than two full combine).
After this due to amount of units, you will start loosing efficiency due to cost and time needed to acquire the units, as well as the resources used to acquire them.
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Lafate
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Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)
Well I suppose it is still good advice when you have to CC something for a skill up.
EDIT: I have a CC conrad. I'll check the experience difference between 30CC10 and 30CC20 to confirm if it still worth the additional 10 levels.
Well I suppose it is still good advice when you have to CC something for a skill up.
EDIT: I have a CC conrad. I'll check the experience difference between 30CC10 and 30CC20 to confirm if it still worth the additional 10 levels.
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Xovian
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Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)
On a similar note, i did find the best units for combines when using units were the male mages. At level 1 they give over 600 a piece. Leveled to level 10, they gave over 700, so a decent boost when using fairies for the final combine. If used for raw feeding it would be pointless though. HA's like Garret were right behind them for XP gain.
Uzza
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Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)
Was going to CC a Mehlis as CR and skill fodder, so did some numbers while I was at it.
Base XP for mehlis is 250, with 7 added per lv. After CC XP is back at 250, but every level increases XP bonus by 20. So a lv 30CC20 Mehlis gives 630 XP.
Xp needed to level from 1 to 20 is 1733, and bonus XP after leveling is to 20 is in total then 380, or 3040 with x8 from fairies.
So in conclusion, if you're CCing anyway for skill feding, leveling up to 20 and then combining with fairies gives a net increase of 1307 from the units fed.
This is also on a female unit, so does not give as much bonus as a male one, though the bonus per level is probably the same.
Edit: Also, since each level after CC for gold units give 20 extra XP, this is 160 extra XP after fairies. Since leveling from 19-20 takes 150 XP, that's the last lv where you gain a net increase per lv.
Was going to CC a Mehlis as CR and skill fodder, so did some numbers while I was at it.
Base XP for mehlis is 250, with 7 added per lv. After CC XP is back at 250, but every level increases XP bonus by 20. So a lv 30CC20 Mehlis gives 630 XP.
Xp needed to level from 1 to 20 is 1733, and bonus XP after leveling is to 20 is in total then 380, or 3040 with x8 from fairies.
So in conclusion, if you're CCing anyway for skill feding, leveling up to 20 and then combining with fairies gives a net increase of 1307 from the units fed.
This is also on a female unit, so does not give as much bonus as a male one, though the bonus per level is probably the same.
Edit: Also, since each level after CC for gold units give 20 extra XP, this is 160 extra XP after fairies. Since leveling from 19-20 takes 150 XP, that's the last lv where you gain a net increase per lv.
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Lafate
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Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)
Alright here is the final numbers for the platinum amor+(can't do the minus since I don't have a spare female unit for exact numbers)
1 would provide 6k exp
10 would provide 6.5k(6504) exp
30CC1 would provide 6k exp
30CC10 would provide 7.4k(7440) exp, and took one combined of 3 bronze and 1 Iron from RtR
30CC20 would provide 9k(9040) exp, and took three combines of 4 Iron from RtR.
The difference betwen 10 and 30CC20 is 2.5k experience...
Going to look at the experience tables. The amount required for a unit to get from 10 to 30CC20 is somewhere around 5.6k(5633) experience... well that is horrible inefficient if a SU isn't involved... in which you are arguing 3.1k experience vs a skill up. The difference between 1 and 10 is 433 so the assumption of it being efficient is right there as well.
EDIT: the difference from 30CC10 to 30CC20 is 1.3 experience so... ya worth it there.
Alright here is the final numbers for the platinum amor+(can't do the minus since I don't have a spare female unit for exact numbers)
1 would provide 6k exp
10 would provide 6.5k(6504) exp
30CC1 would provide 6k exp
30CC10 would provide 7.4k(7440) exp, and took one combined of 3 bronze and 1 Iron from RtR
30CC20 would provide 9k(9040) exp, and took three combines of 4 Iron from RtR.
The difference betwen 10 and 30CC20 is 2.5k experience...
Going to look at the experience tables. The amount required for a unit to get from 10 to 30CC20 is somewhere around 5.6k(5633) experience... well that is horrible inefficient if a SU isn't involved... in which you are arguing 3.1k experience vs a skill up. The difference between 1 and 10 is 433 so the assumption of it being efficient is right there as well.
EDIT: the difference from 30CC10 to 30CC20 is 1.3 experience so... ya worth it there.
Xovian
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Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)
Things to think about when it comes to cost of combines:
1. Gold cost, which is actually the least worrisome of them all.
2. Amount of units needed.
3. Amount of time / energy required to get units for pre-combines.
4. Amount of resources used for achieving an XP gain (Cha / Sta, generally more aimed at event drops.)
4. Total XP they can give / gain (for give or receive) based on level.
5. Total XP they can give / gain (for give or receive) based on rarity.
6. Fairy use, Fairies obviously make doing specific combines better due to giving x8. With straight (RAW) combines, this quickly becomes a net loss regardless of rarity or level.
Things to think about when it comes to cost of combines:
1. Gold cost, which is actually the least worrisome of them all.
2. Amount of units needed.
3. Amount of time / energy required to get units for pre-combines.
4. Amount of resources used for achieving an XP gain (Cha / Sta, generally more aimed at event drops.)
4. Total XP they can give / gain (for give or receive) based on level.
5. Total XP they can give / gain (for give or receive) based on rarity.
6. Fairy use, Fairies obviously make doing specific combines better due to giving x8. With straight (RAW) combines, this quickly becomes a net loss regardless of rarity or level.
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Lafate
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Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)
I think the only thing people really care about is the efficieny of the experience gained.
Uzza
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Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)
Just checked all rarities above bronze, and they all follow the same pattern XP bonus wise, so you can draw the following conclusion:
Unit that is capable of CC give 7xp/lv in bonus.
After CC bonus is gone (since lv is now 1), but they now instead give 20xp/lv as a bonus.
This means that for absolutely any unit you CC to feed for a skillup, you should lv them up to lv 20 and then use them with three fairies.
This is probably very good info to have on the wiki.
Just checked all rarities above bronze, and they all follow the same pattern XP bonus wise, so you can draw the following conclusion:
Unit that is capable of CC give 7xp/lv in bonus.
After CC bonus is gone (since lv is now 1), but they now instead give 20xp/lv as a bonus.
This means that for absolutely any unit you CC to feed for a skillup, you should lv them up to lv 20 and then use them with three fairies.
This is probably very good info to have on the wiki.
Xovian
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Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)
However, as I stated before I found it overall not worth it in every instance. When it takes one-two days to accomplish something that could be completed in a day, that to me is a net loss. No matter how "efficient" something is.
I suppose in my case since I level units in groups, and do not just focus on a single unit, I'm more inclined to try to maximize all aspects and not just get the best one shot possible.
As stated for skill up use, there's no contest.
Fairy use is good, but only when you already have them available. If you are lacking them, well hopefully luck is with you.
Perhaps.
However, as I stated before I found it overall not worth it in every instance. When it takes one-two days to accomplish something that could be completed in a day, that to me is a net loss. No matter how "efficient" something is.
I suppose in my case since I level units in groups, and do not just focus on a single unit, I'm more inclined to try to maximize all aspects and not just get the best one shot possible.
As stated for skill up use, there's no contest.
Fairy use is good, but only when you already have them available. If you are lacking them, well hopefully luck is with you.
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Uzza
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Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)
For silvers and up, if you want to use them without CCing but with fairies, there is a gain, but it's small.
Since every level gives 7 bonus xp, that is 56xp after a fairy. On both silver and gold each level costs below 56 all the way to lv 10, after which it increases to over 100.
Platinums reach the cutoff at lv 8 however, and blacks even faster at lv 6.
It is probably not worth the effort though, since the gain is only between 22 and 104 xp depending on the rarity, and if you overshoot the xp gain past the cutoff levels, that directly reduces the gains.
In conclusion, if you need to CC a unit anyway before feeding then level it to CC20 and use with fairies, otherwise it's not worth it.
Edit: I should probably get in the habit of saving numbers in a document. Having 20 calculator windows open can be a bit confusing.
For silvers and up, if you want to use them without CCing but with fairies, there is a gain, but it's small.
Since every level gives 7 bonus xp, that is 56xp after a fairy. On both silver and gold each level costs below 56 all the way to lv 10, after which it increases to over 100.
Platinums reach the cutoff at lv 8 however, and blacks even faster at lv 6.
It is probably not worth the effort though, since the gain is only between 22 and 104 xp depending on the rarity, and if you overshoot the xp gain past the cutoff levels, that directly reduces the gains.
In conclusion, if you need to CC a unit anyway before feeding then level it to CC20 and use with fairies, otherwise it's not worth it.
Edit: I should probably get in the habit of saving numbers in a document. Having 20 calculator windows open can be a bit confusing.
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Xovian
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Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)
Agreed, and in golds case, they should be used for the actual awakening if they are a spare unit. That becomes their more efficient use as you don't have to level up and CC a silver for the same.
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Lafate
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Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)
There have been events where gold and above non-event* units will give increased experience. It is only applied to the base experience and not total experience. For example, Julian's base experience will grant 1,500 experience instead of 750 during a 2x male bonus exp event. Feed a CC22 Julian to another soldier and it's 2,000 exp (1500 + 420 + 80 (same class, gold quality)). During those event, it's one of the best times to feed a gold unit to one of your main units or main copy. Petite said it was 3x base experience for female units but I can't recall if it's 2x or 3x. Of course, we don't know when this type of event will happen for Nutaku, but it's something people should know about.
*Any unit that can be obtained from base or premium summons.
There have been events where gold and above non-event* units will give increased experience. It is only applied to the base experience and not total experience. For example, Julian's base experience will grant 1,500 experience instead of 750 during a 2x male bonus exp event. Feed a CC22 Julian to another soldier and it's 2,000 exp (1500 + 420 + 80 (same class, gold quality)). During those event, it's one of the best times to feed a gold unit to one of your main units or main copy. Petite said it was 3x base experience for female units but I can't recall if it's 2x or 3x. Of course, we don't know when this type of event will happen for Nutaku, but it's something people should know about.
*Any unit that can be obtained from base or premium summons.
Lafate
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Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)
Hmm I am fairly stuck between decided on Eliza, Figuneria, Adele, and Bellinda as my platinum witch choice. Thought hearing your guys input on each would help me decide on a choice. My other choice in witches... or at least those that can fit the role of a single target magic damage dealer that slows are Ryuryu(Lulu) a gold witch that is designed similarly to Cyrus in that when awakened she sacrifices range in order to attack faster. However her skill unlike Cyrus increases her range so the loss is less meaningful when you actually need that range. Her partner was suppose to be Cloris, but since we can't exactly CR her I went with someone else. Specifically Miko Kagura. She is a shaman which is a hybrid class of witch and healer. While her skill is active she heals, and while it isn't she act as a standard witch. Her awakened ability being that all proximity(melee slot) units get a 5% increase to their attack just by having her in the 'team'. Anyway on to the four witches I'm having trouble choosing one over the other in. Also I'm completely loving Eliza look to be honest.
Here is what they offer at the maximum potential. Note that pictures may not be accurate of current max(cost changes, balance changes, other things may have occurred).
HP: 1779
Atk: 493
Def: 101
MR: 10
Range: 210
Cost: 12
Skill: Increases her attack by 90% bringing it to 937 for 45 seconds. With an initial cooldown of 12.5 seconds, and cooldown of 25 seconds.
Awakened Ability: Every time she attacks her next attack will come quicker.
HP: 1706
Atk: 482
Def: 110
MR: 15
Range: 210
Cost: 12
Skill: Increases her attack by 90% bringing it to 916 for 45 seconds. With an initial cooldown of 12.5 seconds, and cooldown of 25 seconds.
Awakened Ability: Just by being in the 'team' she increases all units HP by 10%
HP: 1682
Atk: 510
Def: 109
MR: 10
Range: 210
Cost: 12
Skill: Increases her attack by 60% bringing it to 816 for 20 seconds. With an initial cooldown of 17.5 seconds, and cooldown of 35 seconds.
Awakened Ability: Make it so the snowstorm map modifiers do not affect her. In addition it increases attack gained by her affection by 10%. If you are doing a snowstorm map this is increased to 20% bringing her base attack to 522, and in turn having it at 835 during skill use.
HP: 1633
Atk: 531(496 without Awakened Ability)
Def: 111
MR: 10
Range: 210
Cost: 12
Skill: Increases her range by 70% bring it to 357 for 25 seconds. Initial cooldown of 15 seconds, and cooldown of 30 seconds.
Awakened Ability: Increase the attack of witches by 7%. Allows her to have the highest base attack of all the witches by herself.
Hmm I am fairly stuck between decided on Eliza, Figuneria, Adele, and Bellinda as my platinum witch choice. Thought hearing your guys input on each would help me decide on a choice. My other choice in witches... or at least those that can fit the role of a single target magic damage dealer that slows are Ryuryu(Lulu) a gold witch that is designed similarly to Cyrus in that when awakened she sacrifices range in order to attack faster. However her skill unlike Cyrus increases her range so the loss is less meaningful when you actually need that range. Her partner was suppose to be Cloris, but since we can't exactly CR her I went with someone else. Specifically Miko Kagura. She is a shaman which is a hybrid class of witch and healer. While her skill is active she heals, and while it isn't she act as a standard witch. Her awakened ability being that all proximity(melee slot) units get a 5% increase to their attack just by having her in the 'team'. Anyway on to the four witches I'm having trouble choosing one over the other in. Also I'm completely loving Eliza look to be honest.
Here is what they offer at the maximum potential. Note that pictures may not be accurate of current max(cost changes, balance changes, other things may have occurred).
You must be registered to see the links
HP: 1779
Atk: 493
Def: 101
MR: 10
Range: 210
Cost: 12
Skill: Increases her attack by 90% bringing it to 937 for 45 seconds. With an initial cooldown of 12.5 seconds, and cooldown of 25 seconds.
Awakened Ability: Every time she attacks her next attack will come quicker.
You must be registered to see the links
HP: 1706
Atk: 482
Def: 110
MR: 15
Range: 210
Cost: 12
Skill: Increases her attack by 90% bringing it to 916 for 45 seconds. With an initial cooldown of 12.5 seconds, and cooldown of 25 seconds.
Awakened Ability: Just by being in the 'team' she increases all units HP by 10%
You must be registered to see the links
HP: 1682
Atk: 510
Def: 109
MR: 10
Range: 210
Cost: 12
Skill: Increases her attack by 60% bringing it to 816 for 20 seconds. With an initial cooldown of 17.5 seconds, and cooldown of 35 seconds.
Awakened Ability: Make it so the snowstorm map modifiers do not affect her. In addition it increases attack gained by her affection by 10%. If you are doing a snowstorm map this is increased to 20% bringing her base attack to 522, and in turn having it at 835 during skill use.
You must be registered to see the links
HP: 1633
Atk: 531(496 without Awakened Ability)
Def: 111
MR: 10
Range: 210
Cost: 12
Skill: Increases her range by 70% bring it to 357 for 25 seconds. Initial cooldown of 15 seconds, and cooldown of 30 seconds.
Awakened Ability: Increase the attack of witches by 7%. Allows her to have the highest base attack of all the witches by herself.
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Xraagen
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Re: (Nutaku) Milenium War Aigis (English Version)
The reason I say Fig for yours is purely based off of stats. She is the strongest package between stats and skills, if deployed by herself. I think Belinda is great for War of Magic, but otherwise is better off replaced if you have access to regular premium summons (aka Adele or Despara). Free2Play accounts definitely will crutch on Bel-Bel though (also premium accounts with awful luck). Stats-wise, I think she is stronger than Eliza, making Bel-Bel a better pairing (if -3CR'd) with your premium witch of choice.
Hmm, out of the four, I would say (just based off stats and skills) Fig looks the strongest. For my own personal advanced team I am planning on Adele and Eliza paired together for my witch choices, with Belinda and Calliope as my benched back-ups. I chose Adele first of all because she's the sexiest-looking (to me) and I was lucky enough to get her in my premium summons. That, and she has a great skill combined with fantastic plat-level attack from affection. Eliza is purely for looks. She is damn sexy, but her skills are highly situational as to be ignorable after her event is done, I believe. Still, she's an event plat witch with good stats, and her charming looks get her the second slot in my team.
The reason I say Fig for yours is purely based off of stats. She is the strongest package between stats and skills, if deployed by herself. I think Belinda is great for War of Magic, but otherwise is better off replaced if you have access to regular premium summons (aka Adele or Despara). Free2Play accounts definitely will crutch on Bel-Bel though (also premium accounts with awful luck). Stats-wise, I think she is stronger than Eliza, making Bel-Bel a better pairing (if -3CR'd) with your premium witch of choice.