Dark Gate OOC Thread
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Sponge
Tentacle God
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Re: PbP Interest Check
Yay! I've been waiting patiently for this, and I LOVE making up stories and such as things go on. I honestly relish in this kinda stuff. It's kinda like two different authors making a book page by page, alternating.
Yay! I've been waiting patiently for this, and I LOVE making up stories and such as things go on. I honestly relish in this kinda stuff. It's kinda like two different authors making a book page by page, alternating.
TentanariX
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Re: PbP Interest Check
SIGH. I can understand if he's got RL crap going on, but BG hasn't been on in a fair while; and in my own RL crap, Ill be out of my apartment and without internetz for an unspecified amount of time next week. Which means when he does come back on my thread will be more or less frozen or slowest moving since my internet access will be occasional to say the least.
SIGH. I can understand if he's got RL crap going on, but BG hasn't been on in a fair while; and in my own RL crap, Ill be out of my apartment and without internetz for an unspecified amount of time next week. Which means when he does come back on my thread will be more or less frozen or slowest moving since my internet access will be occasional to say the least.
OP
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Re: PbP Interest Check
I'd like to apologize to everyone about the long delay a week ago, I think it took my like 2 or 3 weeks before I got around to posting again. I won't say more than that I was busy about it though, so don't ask.
After I finish posting tonight, I plan on finally ironing out the finished rules for DG2. It shouldn't take me too long, but I'm not sure if/when I'm actually going to go about implementing them.
I'd like to apologize to everyone about the long delay a week ago, I think it took my like 2 or 3 weeks before I got around to posting again. I won't say more than that I was busy about it though, so don't ask.
After I finish posting tonight, I plan on finally ironing out the finished rules for DG2. It shouldn't take me too long, but I'm not sure if/when I'm actually going to go about implementing them.
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Re: PbP Interest Check
Well, I suppose it depends on just how extensive the changes are... if it's just a major refinement of existing rules the thing to do would probably be to start a "revised character thread" and just have everyone update their sheet to the new system before they get another update. If it's something more fundamental (to the point where there aren't 3 main stats anymore, for example) a full restart might be required.
Personally I think I'd prefer the former. Or you could just close applications, wind down existing stories, and then start v2.
Well, I suppose it depends on just how extensive the changes are... if it's just a major refinement of existing rules the thing to do would probably be to start a "revised character thread" and just have everyone update their sheet to the new system before they get another update. If it's something more fundamental (to the point where there aren't 3 main stats anymore, for example) a full restart might be required.
Personally I think I'd prefer the former. Or you could just close applications, wind down existing stories, and then start v2.
OP
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Re: PbP Interest Check
We'll see, though I think it should be easy to manage a conversion. I am closing off applications as of now though. The main storyline is mostly finished with at this point anyway. Well, 2/3s finished, at least.
We'll see, though I think it should be easy to manage a conversion. I am closing off applications as of now though. The main storyline is mostly finished with at this point anyway. Well, 2/3s finished, at least.
OP
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Re: PbP Interest Check
Also, I'd like to make this known now: Any ideas that anyone has for how I should change things, feel free to speak up. I particularly want to change how dodge works, but I'm not giving it a roll of its own under any circumstances.
Also, I'd like to make this known now: Any ideas that anyone has for how I should change things, feel free to speak up. I particularly want to change how dodge works, but I'm not giving it a roll of its own under any circumstances.
OP
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Re: PbP Interest Check
Yes. And if, for whatever reason, I do do a reset, I will personally help people bring their old characters up to date. It shouldn't be very hard though, so far the only big changes I've written out are a change in the character sheet, and that you start with 5 Talents instead of 4.
Anything that worked in DG1 will work in DG2. Probably.
Yes. And if, for whatever reason, I do do a reset, I will personally help people bring their old characters up to date. It shouldn't be very hard though, so far the only big changes I've written out are a change in the character sheet, and that you start with 5 Talents instead of 4.
Anything that worked in DG1 will work in DG2. Probably.
Re: PbP Interest Check
I think your largest problem with dodge is the -1/+2 adjust rate makes it too easy to simply call out pulling a perfect dodge for a 20% (or lower) chance to hit, making battles take forever to complete, but assuring a win if the player is smart enough to glance through your numbers.
Potential fixes:
1) Lessen how easy it is to gain to-hit and dodge rating, making only the toughest of characters and enemies have boosts there. (remove the -1/+2)
2) Have scaled dodging(/grappling/resistance checks). Similar to how the spell-scale adjusted on casting difficulty from 1 through 5, have a scaled dodging.
Give the characters an "attack value" instead of a direct "to hit roll" modifier.
If the character still wants to rely on defensive fighting/dodging, have a flat adjust to the roll or stats to reflect on this, rather than allowing unlimited adjusts. With this approach, even facing off against a MUCH stronger enemy, won't simply force players to either have magic, or be totally boned.
(Stat sampling.)
Eh, some rambling on magic balancing after having reviewed the fights with Matthias/Sable/Elea.
Just some random ideas... as always. These ideas were entirely inspired by our recent fight and methods of balancing.
I think your largest problem with dodge is the -1/+2 adjust rate makes it too easy to simply call out pulling a perfect dodge for a 20% (or lower) chance to hit, making battles take forever to complete, but assuring a win if the player is smart enough to glance through your numbers.
Potential fixes:
1) Lessen how easy it is to gain to-hit and dodge rating, making only the toughest of characters and enemies have boosts there. (remove the -1/+2)
2) Have scaled dodging(/grappling/resistance checks). Similar to how the spell-scale adjusted on casting difficulty from 1 through 5, have a scaled dodging.
Give the characters an "attack value" instead of a direct "to hit roll" modifier.
If the character still wants to rely on defensive fighting/dodging, have a flat adjust to the roll or stats to reflect on this, rather than allowing unlimited adjusts. With this approach, even facing off against a MUCH stronger enemy, won't simply force players to either have magic, or be totally boned.
(Stat sampling.)
Sample concept: If 11 is a hit, and 10 is a miss on the base roll (using a d20)
Dodge is 41+ lower = +7 to hit. (Only misses on a 3 or worse.)
Dodge is 32-40 lower = +6 to hit.
Dodge is 24-31 lower = +5 to hit.
Dodge is 17-23 lower = +4 to hit.
Dodge is 11-16 lower = +3 to hit.
Dodge is 6-10 lower = +2 to hit.
Dodge is 2-5 lower = +1 to hit.
Dodge and Hit Values are even (-1 to +1 range) = No adjust.
Dodge is 2-5 higher = -1 to hit.
Dodge is 6-10 higher = -2 to hit.
Dodge is 11-16 higher = -3 to hit.
Dodge is 17-23 higher = -4 to hit.
Dodge is 24-31 higher = -5 to hit.
Dodge is 32-40 higher = -6 to hit.
Dodge is 41+ higher = -7 to hit. (only hits on 18 or better.)
This scale could be useful in adjusts for resistance checks, to prevent the 'perm stun' of some spells. Or in grapple checks (same reason). So characters who're weak in a stat don't find themselves at an automatic-loss when entering certain encounters, though still at a clear disadvantage.
Dodge is 41+ lower = +7 to hit. (Only misses on a 3 or worse.)
Dodge is 32-40 lower = +6 to hit.
Dodge is 24-31 lower = +5 to hit.
Dodge is 17-23 lower = +4 to hit.
Dodge is 11-16 lower = +3 to hit.
Dodge is 6-10 lower = +2 to hit.
Dodge is 2-5 lower = +1 to hit.
Dodge and Hit Values are even (-1 to +1 range) = No adjust.
Dodge is 2-5 higher = -1 to hit.
Dodge is 6-10 higher = -2 to hit.
Dodge is 11-16 higher = -3 to hit.
Dodge is 17-23 higher = -4 to hit.
Dodge is 24-31 higher = -5 to hit.
Dodge is 32-40 higher = -6 to hit.
Dodge is 41+ higher = -7 to hit. (only hits on 18 or better.)
This scale could be useful in adjusts for resistance checks, to prevent the 'perm stun' of some spells. Or in grapple checks (same reason). So characters who're weak in a stat don't find themselves at an automatic-loss when entering certain encounters, though still at a clear disadvantage.
Eh, some rambling on magic balancing after having reviewed the fights with Matthias/Sable/Elea.
Beyond that... I'd say Magic needs retuning overall. Characters who rely on magic seem to have a major advantage in many encounters, and few drawbacks in needing some rest.
Weapons and magic in general need to be re-scaled so that the two classes are more even. Magic reliant characters are barely ever pushed to that infamous limit that finally topples them. As seen in Sable/Elea's conflict, our catgirl sorceress wiped out 10 of your elite units and further continued to thrash through two more LARGE wave encounters almost single handedly, and though a lot of the fluff is cute, if two warrior types were faced with a similar group of foes, I'm pretty sure both would be tits in the dirt and asses stuffed by now, waiting for Mattias to come rescue them.
While it's true that Sable is rather sharply specialized in magic and has other drawbacks as a result, it still doesn't feel very balanced, and I'm sure Xiv would've enjoyed participating in that 2nd wave instead of being stun-locked.
This is always going to be under debate though, as if magic is too weak, no one will rely on it.
A quick suggestion there may be to make 'natural' magic qualities be free-cast as we're doing, and weaken them to around 1/2 their weapon based counterparts in damage, then have spell-based equipment (wands, staves, focus-crystals, etc.) which are held and used by casters instead of weapons. These focus items 'unlocking' higher level spells, rather than taking a perk for it (so to speak).
Then instead of giving large magic multipliers, keep magic multipliers on par with weapon multipliers, and simply have spells do more base damage, relative to their mana costs.
Such a system could drop the focus-roll for basic spells, as characters are deemed able to cast by instinct no matter what, letting magic wielders have an "unarmed" attack via magic, while focus rolls and the rest would rely entirely on spell objects.
... In this method, a character's spell-list becomes what items they have, just like a warrior may swap between a bow for first round of combat, to a sword, etc.
This would also prevent the situation where you need to send unit-spam of 10+ enemies to handle a caster, and likely have the caster win anyhow, while 3 of the same enemy easily rapes a warrior, since it would re-balance magic users as a different form of combat.
The biggest flaw of this is that it may feel like it starts to lose it's individuality, but this aspect should rely on the RPer's skills, not a twinkable system. A further suggestion may be to approach it as a Rock Paper Scissors style system. Spirit Trumps Magic, Magic Trumps Fight, Fight Trumps Spirit. This would encourage characters to think more strategically about a fight, and avoid battles where they know they have a disadvantage. Or even abandon their primary weapon to try to pull an edge over certain enemies. (In this example, Sable would stop using magic and rely on her rifle to take on a spirit enemy.)
Weapons and magic in general need to be re-scaled so that the two classes are more even. Magic reliant characters are barely ever pushed to that infamous limit that finally topples them. As seen in Sable/Elea's conflict, our catgirl sorceress wiped out 10 of your elite units and further continued to thrash through two more LARGE wave encounters almost single handedly, and though a lot of the fluff is cute, if two warrior types were faced with a similar group of foes, I'm pretty sure both would be tits in the dirt and asses stuffed by now, waiting for Mattias to come rescue them.
While it's true that Sable is rather sharply specialized in magic and has other drawbacks as a result, it still doesn't feel very balanced, and I'm sure Xiv would've enjoyed participating in that 2nd wave instead of being stun-locked.
This is always going to be under debate though, as if magic is too weak, no one will rely on it.
A quick suggestion there may be to make 'natural' magic qualities be free-cast as we're doing, and weaken them to around 1/2 their weapon based counterparts in damage, then have spell-based equipment (wands, staves, focus-crystals, etc.) which are held and used by casters instead of weapons. These focus items 'unlocking' higher level spells, rather than taking a perk for it (so to speak).
Then instead of giving large magic multipliers, keep magic multipliers on par with weapon multipliers, and simply have spells do more base damage, relative to their mana costs.
Such a system could drop the focus-roll for basic spells, as characters are deemed able to cast by instinct no matter what, letting magic wielders have an "unarmed" attack via magic, while focus rolls and the rest would rely entirely on spell objects.
... In this method, a character's spell-list becomes what items they have, just like a warrior may swap between a bow for first round of combat, to a sword, etc.
This would also prevent the situation where you need to send unit-spam of 10+ enemies to handle a caster, and likely have the caster win anyhow, while 3 of the same enemy easily rapes a warrior, since it would re-balance magic users as a different form of combat.
The biggest flaw of this is that it may feel like it starts to lose it's individuality, but this aspect should rely on the RPer's skills, not a twinkable system. A further suggestion may be to approach it as a Rock Paper Scissors style system. Spirit Trumps Magic, Magic Trumps Fight, Fight Trumps Spirit. This would encourage characters to think more strategically about a fight, and avoid battles where they know they have a disadvantage. Or even abandon their primary weapon to try to pull an edge over certain enemies. (In this example, Sable would stop using magic and rely on her rifle to take on a spirit enemy.)
Just some random ideas... as always. These ideas were entirely inspired by our recent fight and methods of balancing.
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Re: PbP Interest Check
Mages are balanced the way they have always been balanced - as glass cannons. Sure, they can shred through elite troops with ease... with two caveats, which I will explain through example:
1.) Running out of MP leaves you as a warrior without any talents (as the best case). This isn't going to happen in a single encounter, but if someone does something stupid (like walking through a portal and ending up in the heart of demon lands, then maintaining a buff that disallows MP regen) it will happen eventually. Or tassador could decide that demons are going to attack quickly and often enough that regen doesn't happen for a long period of time.
2.) Ashley encountered two ogres just before making it back through the gate. She defeated them with a single spell. But if she hadn't - if one managed to sneak up on her, or they were too far apart, or if she was fighting something else, or if she underestimated how much HP they had - and one managed to get within grabbing distance... well, that would pretty much be that. One chance to kill them while she's just grappled, then I'd have to wait for a string of natural 20's, or mathias.
A warrior surely has a different balance - less effective against large groups, but less hit/miss against small numbers of enemies. And that's just fine, especially since PC's aren't competing against each other. (Which is good, since two magic-using PC's fighting would pretty much come down to "who attacks first".)
Now, that isn't to say that mages couldn't use more balancing (though it's probably silly to talk about it when there are V2 rules we haven't seen yet) but I don't think it's quite as bad as you make out. Maybe tweak MP pool, cost, and regen to encourage conservation of MP a little more?
Mages are balanced the way they have always been balanced - as glass cannons. Sure, they can shred through elite troops with ease... with two caveats, which I will explain through example:
1.) Running out of MP leaves you as a warrior without any talents (as the best case). This isn't going to happen in a single encounter, but if someone does something stupid (like walking through a portal and ending up in the heart of demon lands, then maintaining a buff that disallows MP regen) it will happen eventually. Or tassador could decide that demons are going to attack quickly and often enough that regen doesn't happen for a long period of time.
2.) Ashley encountered two ogres just before making it back through the gate. She defeated them with a single spell. But if she hadn't - if one managed to sneak up on her, or they were too far apart, or if she was fighting something else, or if she underestimated how much HP they had - and one managed to get within grabbing distance... well, that would pretty much be that. One chance to kill them while she's just grappled, then I'd have to wait for a string of natural 20's, or mathias.
A warrior surely has a different balance - less effective against large groups, but less hit/miss against small numbers of enemies. And that's just fine, especially since PC's aren't competing against each other. (Which is good, since two magic-using PC's fighting would pretty much come down to "who attacks first".)
Now, that isn't to say that mages couldn't use more balancing (though it's probably silly to talk about it when there are V2 rules we haven't seen yet) but I don't think it's quite as bad as you make out. Maybe tweak MP pool, cost, and regen to encourage conservation of MP a little more?
Re: PbP Interest Check
@TheTwo:
You're accurate about mages running out of power eventually, but you need to compare this against a warrior.
If a Warrior runs into 10 black armored knights (high level baddies), she's fucked.
My mage: Casts one Chain Lightning and that's that.
If a Warrior encounters a string of small squads of stalkers. She's gradually disarmed and molested, barring the "unbreakable armor" situation from before the update to armor, if an enemy can damage/penetrate, they'll eventually roll high enough from multiple waves of encounters, to shred her armor and take her. Her easy escape: Flee combat and repair armor/heal, before going at it again.
If a mage encounters the same string of stalkers. She has little chance of injury against the first few, simply expending her magic to kill the same number of them as the warrior, until realizing that it's time to take a break. Her easy escape: Flee combat and regen mana.
What I see here is that lengthy encounters play out the same way as mage or warrior, eventually the character is worn down and beaten. Which is fair.
The "problem" that I'm trying to correct, is the first situation described above. The mage's ability to utterly destroy enemies from a situation the warrior would be rape-fodder in.
@TheTwo:
You're accurate about mages running out of power eventually, but you need to compare this against a warrior.
If a Warrior runs into 10 black armored knights (high level baddies), she's fucked.
My mage: Casts one Chain Lightning and that's that.
If a Warrior encounters a string of small squads of stalkers. She's gradually disarmed and molested, barring the "unbreakable armor" situation from before the update to armor, if an enemy can damage/penetrate, they'll eventually roll high enough from multiple waves of encounters, to shred her armor and take her. Her easy escape: Flee combat and repair armor/heal, before going at it again.
If a mage encounters the same string of stalkers. She has little chance of injury against the first few, simply expending her magic to kill the same number of them as the warrior, until realizing that it's time to take a break. Her easy escape: Flee combat and regen mana.
What I see here is that lengthy encounters play out the same way as mage or warrior, eventually the character is worn down and beaten. Which is fair.
The "problem" that I'm trying to correct, is the first situation described above. The mage's ability to utterly destroy enemies from a situation the warrior would be rape-fodder in.
the_taken
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Re: PbP Interest Check
While I agree there needs to be a bit more balancing, you're going about it in the wrong direction. Mages need to be toned down a notch to be on the same level of as warriors. Every character is supposed to be rape fodder here.
Re: PbP Interest Check
... but that's what I said! I'm trying to take away a mage's ability to not be rape fodder XDWhile I agree there needs to be a bit more balancing, you're going about it in the wrong direction. Mages need to be toned down a notch to be on the same level of as warriors. Every character is supposed to be rape fodder here.
Re: PbP Interest Check
I think mages are fairly well-balanced as-is. A lot of how they play is dependent on how imaginative the player is. I've been trying to play Alisa more-or-less as a mage, and she hasn't pulled off any mass-kills. Granted, she's a Nature-caster, which is a support element, rather than a direct-damage caster.
For dodge, I don't think the change from a direct scale to an indirect scale is a good idea. One of the principles of design is "Keep It Simple", and that makes the system more complicated. There's a couple possibilities... hide the enemy rolls (forcing people to guess, instead of calculate), take a hit to Stamina for dodge-adjustment (probably just a point or so each turn you use it), or change the attack-to-dodge ratio (1-to-1 sounds better to me).
I think mages are fairly well-balanced as-is. A lot of how they play is dependent on how imaginative the player is. I've been trying to play Alisa more-or-less as a mage, and she hasn't pulled off any mass-kills. Granted, she's a Nature-caster, which is a support element, rather than a direct-damage caster.
For dodge, I don't think the change from a direct scale to an indirect scale is a good idea. One of the principles of design is "Keep It Simple", and that makes the system more complicated. There's a couple possibilities... hide the enemy rolls (forcing people to guess, instead of calculate), take a hit to Stamina for dodge-adjustment (probably just a point or so each turn you use it), or change the attack-to-dodge ratio (1-to-1 sounds better to me).
Unknown Squid
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Re: PbP Interest Check
Whilst the balance concerns are plenty valid, I kind of like/don't mind the idea of magic actually being something more powerful and special than simple muscle and martial skill. I see it a bit like the way game systems try to balance the strengths of guns and melee, which in reality frankly isn't balanced in the slightest. I've always had this minor niggle about balance in roleplaying games. How everyone is balanced into levels, and even blatantly superior races receive things like "level adjustment". In some of my own games before I have actually removed such features and had the game play out just fine. I wanted to have a game where mages were genuinely rare and powerful, and another where a certain race weren't globally low level noobs just because they were 10ft tall. Not at all saying we shouldn't try to improve balance in the system. Unbalanced games need a particular player base and style. Just thought I'd say that since the subject came up.
Whilst the balance concerns are plenty valid, I kind of like/don't mind the idea of magic actually being something more powerful and special than simple muscle and martial skill. I see it a bit like the way game systems try to balance the strengths of guns and melee, which in reality frankly isn't balanced in the slightest. I've always had this minor niggle about balance in roleplaying games. How everyone is balanced into levels, and even blatantly superior races receive things like "level adjustment". In some of my own games before I have actually removed such features and had the game play out just fine. I wanted to have a game where mages were genuinely rare and powerful, and another where a certain race weren't globally low level noobs just because they were 10ft tall. Not at all saying we shouldn't try to improve balance in the system. Unbalanced games need a particular player base and style. Just thought I'd say that since the subject came up.
