RPG Unknown/Hiatus Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

[CrazyPerson]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

"More to the point, all H-attacks are imposed on the characters, while the characters themselves lack the ability to perform their own H-attacks. Basically, the only type of sex that is acceptable in this game as a consequence is non-consensual, which is an uninspiring decision at best and an inability to think creatively about sex at all at worst."

I assume they don't have H-attacks because they aren't really looking for sex they are trying to do whatever missions they are in the area to do (although a corruption system could possibly add this)

But you can't necessarily argue "but the alternative wouldn't make sense in the setting" against a criticism of game features.
The setting is created by the developer for the sole purpose of the game - it's not like it's trying to be historically accurate or something. It can be changed.
So we can't say their criticism is completely invalid - there's a point in there somewhere.

Overall, the game does focus on struggle/reluctance a fair amount - fifty shades of grey, anyone?
You could argue that they knowingly and willingly entered the sex dungeon, but still -
at least as far as characterization goes right now, characters like professorbot are the perverted ones,
the heroines are more "oh no, please don't". Which is probably part of the turn-on factor for many, so it may not be a thing to change..
However, I could also see how some people may be upset: The fact that struggles get less effective when horny, and that horniness increases by getting drugged by enemies...
It reinforces the classic "females can't genuinely want sex, it's all about making them want it" stereotype, a somewhat problematic one.

And I guess things could be made less asymmetric - there could be a "jack off" move that stuns enemies or at least makes them less likely to use H-attacks,
there could be non-combat events where the heroines could willingly do sex things - perhaps to reduce horniness, or just - because they feel like it?

That all said, I suppose the overarching theme of the game does lean more towards dystopia/desperation/reluctance where characters seek survival,
as opposed to a cheerful sex-positive world of euphoria/planning/enthusiasm where characters seek wish-fulfillment.
So in the grand scheme of things, this game is always going to be too dark for some people.
In the vein of my earlier argument - nobody knows quite why fantasies of struggle are turn-ons to some, just that they are.
It won't be the right thing for everyone, but as long as they stay fantasies, no skin off my back, right?

 

[EcchiExpress]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

Hey guys!

Affect3D has done a project feature piece on Malise and the Machine that you can check out here:

You must be registered to see the links

I have to say I'm sort of taken aback at how they seem to treat the fact that it's a heavily ryona based game as a flaw. What do you guys think?

Feels like a largely out of touch article that dislikes game over rape games which is one of the most popular if not the most popular genre for h games. I wouldn't take this article seriously nor anyone that actually agrees with it

 

[Eromancer]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

...ryona is a tag for the game that doesn't even work for it. Nobody gets bruised or beaten or dismembered, etc.

I'm under the impression that the term ryona emphasizes the situation as opposed to any physical injury (as opposed to guro).

Splitting hairs over terms aside, I think it's the best way to describe what seems to me to be the core of most combat oriented Japanese hentai games.

Just because I gave my best to fight the enemies, losing a battle to see a rape scene is no fun for me (even taking a beating during the fight is bad, so I try to avoid that as well).

You never have to lose to see the H content. The point is that you're going to naturally encounter the H content while trying to overcome the challenges the game presents.

This statement makes it seem as though you'd rather not be presented with battles that are challenging. If you remove that, then why not just make it a visual novel where you can see the H content at your leisure? Making the game an accessible but persistent challenge throughout is as much a goal as the H content, and has been advertised as such from the start.

A hole that's easy to fall into is to try to make an assessment of the game's mechanics while playing at the lowest level. Consider hypothetically that this was an MMO and you'd see the flaw with that judgment. The opportunities for survivability are more limited, and that doesn't necessarily reflect how the majority of the game will be balanced.

 

[stoper]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

You never have to lose to see the H content. The point is that you're going to naturally encounter the H content while trying to overcome the challenges the game presents.

This statement makes it seem as though you'd rather not be presented with battles that are challenging. If you remove that, then why not just make it a visual novel where you can see the H content at your leisure? Making the game an accessible but persistent challenge throughout is as much a goal as the H content, and has been advertised as such from the start.

A hole that's easy to fall into is to try to make an assessment of the game's mechanics while playing at the lowest level. Consider hypothetically that this was an MMO and you'd see the flaw with that judgment. The opportunities for survivability are more limited, and that doesn't necessarily reflect how the majority of the game will be balanced.

I wrote 'losing' in general for HRPGs. I just think your version of it is not that different - you get the h-content by not doing well during battles, that was my point. The content comes naturally, but it comes as a result of my partial inability to overcome the challenge, not as a reward for playing well.

I definitely don't mean removing the challenge. I'm just saying that I would've enjoyed it more if there was a reward for players who are doing well during the fights (pointing out that I saw little to no h-content, just because I was able to fight well and avoid being overcome by the enemies).

I understand your point about the low level challenge. As the game progresses I may encounter more difficult fights and not be able to avoid the rape attacks. But that won't make me enjoy them any more than I do now. When I play a game and my character gets a punch in the face, I'm not like - 'yeah, cool'. But rather - 'damn, if only I was better at this game I could've avoided that'. There is an instinct in me as a player to give my best at 'beating' the game and I get no joy at failing (whether completely or partially).

 

[nguyentri666force]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

Saying that it being heavily ryona based as a flaw is a pretty biased statement. Some people like it and some people don't. Same thing with guro, it's just a fetish that only some will enjoy. Hell even female rape can't be enjoyed by every single person.

 

[Eromancer]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

The content comes naturally, but it comes as a result of my partial inability to overcome the challenge, not as a reward for playing well.

...

I definitely don't mean removing the challenge. I'm just saying that I would've enjoyed it more if there was a reward for players who are doing well during the fights...

Ah I like how you formulated that, and I think that may have been what the author of the piece was trying to get at.

In defense, I'll say that to maximize that idea would be better suited for the BF genre, where the player is on the "giving" end instead of the "receiving" end.

I often use the example of the Dark Souls games to describe the core philosophy present in MATM. The slogan for that game is "Prepare to Die", and guess what: in Dark Souls, you're gonna die. For people that enjoy that play style, getting sidelined by the challenges and facing the trial and error is part of the fun. I'll let you come up with the matching slogan for MATM on your own, but it's very much why I used the choice words "In this game, you are rewarded with H-content by surviving" as opposed to "you are rewarded with H-content by winning" when I wrote the original Patreon description.

I want to add though without saying too much (and I'll point again to what was made mention to earlier about jumping the gun on assessing the game based on what's available at low levels), that the lust system has a whole lot of flexibility and possibilities, and we do intend to utilize it.

 

[stoper]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

...
I want to add though without saying too much (and I'll point again to what was made mention to earlier about jumping the gun on assessing the game based on what's available at low levels), that the lust system has a whole lot of flexibility and possibilities, and we do intend to utilize it.

I'm definitely looking forward to it. And if there happens to be something in it that suits my taste - all the better.
But I see your point. And judging by the comments, from people who like the genre more than I do, you're hitting home so far. So just keep it up

 

[Ayra]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

I feel the article is mostly fair, except for maybe some of the "author lacks creativity" points. They present some things like the survival aspect or the "try not to get raped" as wrong, when I feel it's just a preference and not every game has the same focus and goal.

Would I prefer if the game was about the girls liking monster sex and seducing them out to win? Personally, yes. I prefer consensual, and I do tend to enjoy games where you can do that. But this game doesn't seem to be designed for it, and that's totally fine. I'm not going to request the game to be changed to something I prefer if it's not according to the creator's vision for it.

And I mean, the whole "try to survive" and pushing forward even though the characters had to get through some horrible situations is appealing. Got "impaled" by ugly monsters, but recover and keep going on to accomplish the mission. That's pretty interesting too, and can be just as creative if done well. I'll admit that in the demo you had to pretty much intentionally get grabbed and held to get a midfight situation (or at the very least avoid the repair/lust reducing station), but it's just an early demo of an early part of the game. To me it shows tremendous promise for what the battle system can do, so I'm happy with it. And in my book the scene you get for beating the demo is a plus: Neon gets in a really bad spot, but (presumably) manages to push through it and move on despite the bad things. Mental fortitude and coming out from real adversity like that I admire and like, so a scene like that works fine for me even though my main preference is the fluffier stuff.

 

[Slam Sector]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

Ah I like how you formulated that, and I think that may have been what the author of the piece was trying to get at.

In defense, I'll say that to maximize that idea would be better suited for the BF genre, where the player is on the "giving" end instead of the "receiving" end.

I often use the example of the Dark Souls games to describe the core philosophy present in MATM. The slogan for that game is "Prepare to Die", and guess what: in Dark Souls, you're gonna die. For people that enjoy that play style, getting sidelined by the challenges and facing the trial and error is part of the fun. I'll let you come up with the matching slogan for MATM on your own, but it's very much why I used the choice words "In this game, you are rewarded with H-content by surviving" as opposed to "you are rewarded with H-content by winning" when I wrote the original Patreon description.

I want to add though without saying too much (and I'll point again to what was made mention to earlier about jumping the gun on assessing the game based on what's available at low levels), that the lust system has a whole lot of flexibility and possibilities, and we do intend to utilize it.

You may not see it that way, but this is definitely going to be one of those games where you enjoy the h-content by intentionally doing poorly in fights. I predict a lot of the porn sessions being "save the game, then let the enemies throw my heroines around for a semi-randomized sex scene, but remember to use heals periodically or the 'scene' cuts out."

That review seems to go on the assumption that sex games should be like virtual doll houses, though, and not porn versions of action games or RPGs, so he's(?) reviewing from a very different viewpoint than your target audience. I do think it's pretty cool that you seem to be so interested in a viewpoint you haven't considered before, though. Maybe this will help you create a better final product?

 

[Eromancer]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

You may not see it that way, but this is definitely going to be one of those games where you enjoy the h-content by intentionally doing poorly in fights. I predict a lot of the porn sessions being "save the game, then let the enemies throw my heroines around for a semi-randomized sex scene, but remember to use heals periodically or the 'scene' cuts out."

Ultimately new H content is still unlocked by progressing. Games with exclusively GOR content however require that you interrupt that momentum of progression in order to lose and see content.

There's definitely not anything to stop someone from playing the game like a GOR game in the sense that they can try to get an enemy in a favorable situation and coax H attacks out, but a major goal of the battle system is to enable the player the freedom to progress while still enjoying the H content throughout. As someone who had some obsessive compulsive tendencies when I was younger, I found out that there's almost always a way to play any game in such a way so that it just isn't fun. Removing these cases isn't necessarily the objective, as much as it is making it so they aren't the requirement for a reward.

If the final game was balanced in such a way where you have to intentionally do poorly in battle to actually see the content, then that would be a real problem to me. This is of course why balancing it properly is important, as well as allowing the player some flexibility through settings if they feel the need to adjust the pace of battle to enjoy the game (Note: I definitely had the wrong attitude about this for this particular project before V0.01).

I'm not arguing that it's a perfect system, but I do think it's too early to put holes in it before it can be fully realized.

 

[Anon17564]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

Ultimately new H content is still unlocked by progressing. Games with exclusively GOR content however require that you interrupt that momentum of progression in order to lose and see content.

There's definitely not anything to stop someone from playing the game like a GOR game in the sense that they can try to get an enemy in a favorable situation and coax H attacks out, but a major goal of the battle system is to enable the player the freedom to progress while still enjoying the H content throughout. As someone who had some obsessive compulsive tendencies when I was younger, I found out that there's almost always a way to play any game in such a way so that it just isn't fun. Removing these cases isn't necessarily the objective, as much as it is making it so they aren't the requirement for a reward.

If the final game was balanced in such a way where you have to intentionally do poorly in battle to actually see the content, then that would be a real problem to me. This is of course why balancing it properly is important, as well as allowing the player some flexibility through settings if they feel the need to adjust the pace of battle to enjoy the game (Note: I definitely had the wrong attitude about this for this particular project before V0.01).

I'm not arguing that it's a perfect system, but I do think it's too early to put holes in it before it can be fully realized.

For what it's worth, I think that the combat system you've gone for is certainly innovative and, for my part, really fun to work with. It does seem that the main consequences of being hit with a sex attack are just the mutual stun for now though, will being caught be more intrinsically detrimental later on?

 

[afa]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

Personally I like the struggling and non consensual aspect of H game, but that's a very personal preference.
Therefore by default I tend to play h games that feature h scenes that play when the characters are doing poorly and subsequently is encouraging the player to play poorly.
The survival vs winning aspect I guess is a matter of balancing or perhaps require some background sleight of hand.

Yes I agree that for the player to view the sex content the game has to offer the player is require to survive and keep going, but how fine and tight does the balance have to be if you are asking for the player to perform their very best but at the same time will still ensure all the sex scenes play? Essentially you are asking the player to do their best while the game is challenging enough to put characters in a (at least temporary) losing situation.

What happens when a player is performing slightly less than the very best? Will it be impossible to win then?
Or is that left to chance by random dice rolls? which is difficult to account for.

Is there some background assist vs penalty (read: the system is slightly rigged) to make sure the characters will always be on the verge of defeat at least once, but will then be favored by the rng gods again as a counter balance?

 

[CrazyPerson]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

In my experience, "difficulty" in this game very much depends on the arousal levels.
So if you keep running back to the ARIS unit every chance you get, things are relatively easy, to the point where you won't see most scenes (since some require armor break)
If you keep going "nah, we can get one more loop" you'll have a harder (hurr, hurr) time.
Generally, if you have a supply of mana and/or items it still won't be gameover-levels, though - besides, running away generally helps if you need to get back to restore on low resources.

For me, with battle wait enabled, difficulty is just right: I can avoid dying when I want to,
but running around without healing arousal generally gets me most scenes without taking too much time.
Of course, this is different in this demo than the original 0.01/0.02 - there was no ARIS unit in that level,
so it ended up a question of "do enemies drop more items than they cost resources to defeat?"
Which still worked, but it really biased against running away, and towards MP restores for healing.

 

[Eromancer]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

So if you keep running back to the ARIS unit every chance you get, things are relatively easy, to the point where you won't see most scenes (since some require armor break)
If you keep going "nah, we can get one more loop" you'll have a harder (hurr, hurr) time.

This is something I was aware of, but am thinking more seriously about it now. Ideally I guess this should be a factor of the map/event design, and is something I will consider more from here on out.

In the Access Tunnels you're always kind of near the ARIS unit since there's backtracking involved. This of course means you can complete a small task and return with no problems. This probably shouldn't be the case for areas intended to be more difficult. The easiest way to do this (speaking in the most general terms possible) would be to design things in such a way where progress toward an objective or the next ARIS unit is reset if you choose to backtrack and use an ARIS unit.

 

[AExMachina]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

This is something I was aware of, but am thinking more seriously about it now. Ideally I guess this should be a factor of the map/event design, and is something I will consider more from here on out.

In the Access Tunnels you're always kind of near the ARIS unit since there's backtracking involved. This of course means you can complete a small task and return with no problems. This probably shouldn't be the case for areas intended to be more difficult. The easiest way to do this (speaking in the most general terms possible) would be to design things in such a way where progress toward an objective or the next ARIS unit is reset if you choose to backtrack and use an ARIS unit.

Is it really a problem? If people want to run to the ARIS unit every time they get a scratch on their armor that's on them, I'd imagine most of us want to see some skin and rather rush forward than run back and forth. I'm a big fan of leaving some sort of control of the difficulty to the players, especially since putting artificial counters to cheesing can often be annoying to people who aren't trying to cheese the game. Especially in a game where the H-content is the big deal and not necessarily how challenging it is.

That said, the balance is pretty good right now so I'm not overly worried what you do with it.

 

[Stranger]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

Good ol' grinding helps alleviate the difficulty. Game too hard - grind some.

Besides, don't forget, this is demo version. There will be gameplay changes in the future in the sense of outfits, skills, weapons etc. Which will change the difficulty in ways we don't even know.
The demo is awesome. I have complete faith in Eromancer.

 

[Sithri]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

This is something I was aware of, but am thinking more seriously about it now. Ideally I guess this should be a factor of the map/event design, and is something I will consider more from here on out.

In the Access Tunnels you're always kind of near the ARIS unit since there's backtracking involved. This of course means you can complete a small task and return with no problems. This probably shouldn't be the case for areas intended to be more difficult. The easiest way to do this (speaking in the most general terms possible) would be to design things in such a way where progress toward an objective or the next ARIS unit is reset if you choose to backtrack and use an ARIS unit.

you could always try to make areas involve unlocking shortcuts and pathways around the map back to nearby ARIS units as resetting progress just because you need to go back to heal sounds a bit punishing to the player for no real reason except difficulty's sake

you could also use this as a way to not have to involve just shoving ARIS units everywhere unless the player makes considerable progress to a far away area or a different locale

 

[yuriski]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

Actually, I find the game much easier if both characters have high lust. After all, an enemy that does a sex attack doesn't do damage, and your characters heal their hp and sp when blocking.

 

[Wuumaster]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

This is something I was aware of, but am thinking more seriously about it now. Ideally I guess this should be a factor of the map/event design, and is something I will consider more from here on out.

In the Access Tunnels you're always kind of near the ARIS unit since there's backtracking involved. This of course means you can complete a small task and return with no problems. This probably shouldn't be the case for areas intended to be more difficult. The easiest way to do this (speaking in the most general terms possible) would be to design things in such a way where progress toward an objective or the next ARIS unit is reset if you choose to backtrack and use an ARIS unit.

you could always try to make areas involve unlocking shortcuts and pathways around the map back to nearby ARIS units

I like this approach. Allows for a difficult non-boss section without getting a feeling of dread of 'Holy crap now I have to fight a boss after all that shit!?'.

I would also suggest an item that lowers Lust by ~1/3, but only allow the girls to carry 2 on hand at any time. Consider it a way to avoid having players think 'This looks like boss territory, better hit the ARIS unit and try to run away from anything on the way back.'

 

[Natali]

Re: Malise and the Machine - Public Demo Available Now!

How long has this game been developed?