SIM [Old Huntsman] Jack-o-nine-tails [SLG]

[Alploochra]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

Nope, that's not how i treat the relevant slaves.

But that's how you're meant to do. It's a slaver game in a very grim dark setting (a city full of extreme mysoginistic cannibal slavers).
I know that a lot of players force the game to be some sort of dating princess trainer but it's being deliberately blind.
It's a game of the darkest slavery with dominance as main goal. And making profit and social ascendance of total human objectification.

Evenmore, people are intentionally biaising the simple fact that you're dealing with slaves - real slaves, not funplay sex slaves. It isn't Slave Maker and its really strange take on slavery, all consensual and all while still changing girls into dickgirls and devils without asking.

Jack_o slaves haven't signed any sort of contract with Mr Grey. They've been kidnapped, their lives destroyed, sometimes are even murderiously rebellious, and they don't want sex right now.

(You can drown them in aphrodisiacs, still)

Elephant in the room: Savegame compatibility
----------------------------------------------------

I think it would be incredibly difficult.
There's also the secondary fact that Jack_o isn't meant as a sandbox game (even the sandbox mode is a new game plus mode in facts), and that there is progression.

(Reworked) Slave work proposal:
----------------------------------------------

We're thinking of (or already working on) other work tasks, and other means to increase a slave's fame. Combining the two is a possibility spoken of.
In the case of your own proposition, what bothers me is that you're clicking past each second day. It's kind of boring and grindy.
I'd prefer a lot that you can send a slave on "fame mission", that doesn't cost you if successful (she pays for herself), and while she's away you can have another one in the active slot.

 

[rynak]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

But that's how you're meant to do. It's a slaver game in a very grim dark setting (a city full of extreme mysoginistic cannibal slavers).
I know that a lot of players force the game to be some sort of dating princess trainer but it's being deliberately blind.
It's a game of the darkest slavery with dominance as main goal. And making profit and social ascendance of total human objectification.

Evenmore, people are intentionally biaising the simple fact that you're dealing with slaves - real slaves, not funplay sex slaves. It isn't Slave Maker and its really strange take on slavery, all consensual and all while still changing girls into dickgirls and devils without asking.

With updates from the original author having stopped, that doesn't matter much anymore for the future. What matters are the current capabilities of the game and setting, as well as the goals of the now active devs.

And right now, ignoring some bugs and balance issues, the game is fit to allow for many different playstyles - different even per slave. That is a MAJOR reason i quitted slavemaker real quickly, while still playing this one: In slavemaker there seems to be ONE way "to do it right" for a given slave. In Jack9Tails, you have a bit of headroom in how you deal with a particular slave. That's very important for roleplay, because automated gamemechanics cannot account for the emergent and random nature of such a game. What i mean with this is the sequence of events, and the player's in-character response to those.... the game cannot take this into account and "rule" it.... if a series of events happen, and i then simply respond how i consider it right *given the sequence of events*.... how does the game judge if my response was right? It cannot.

Slavemaker simply ignores this issue - as a result, one is forced to play the game *technically*, instead of in-character. In Jack9Tails instead there is - within reasonable bounds - headroom and some degree of freedom. As a result, i can react in-character, and the game tolerates this.

If the current devs don't consider this part of their vision, that's of course their choice - just as it is the player's choice which version to play.

But to address your main argument directly: You're basically saying that an illogical working of gamemechanics is okay, because the setting doesn't expect it, yet the mechanics allow it. I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me.

If the gamemechanics would clearly discourage some playstyles, that do not fit the supposed "setting" - then your argument would make sense ("Why ADD support for something, that isn't in the scope of the game?").

But that is not the case: The game already has laid all the groundwork to treat a slave well IF she performs well. In fact, that just as the dark themes is a central topic in conversation and the reward-systems. So, at least mechanically, this is already an INTENDED feature of the game - it's not an accidental exploit used by players.

I mean, it comes down to this:

Player1: Well, that lust behavior makes sense - if they live a crap life, they're not much in the mood for sex. If they life a better life (which the game fully supports), they're more interested

Player2: That would make sense, but the later doesn't happen.

Player3: Oh well, that isn't part of the vision anyways. It's not a bug, it's a feature.

Wat?

EDIT: Or, to phrase it another way:

Player1: "So, it's basically stick an carrots - behave well and i reward you, behave bad and i punish you. If you're a skilled trainer, the slave will eventually behave well?"

Player2: "Yes."

Player1: "So, what happens on success?"

Player3: "That's not compatible with the supposed setting."

Player1: "Wait, so i'm supposed to fail, or punish when the game tells me i should reward?"

Problem?

 

[Darkstrain]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

all i see is someone that doesn't qualify as part of our guild, the licenses are being given for free it seems, remember the training you did, personal feelings shouldn't interfere with your work and your brand.

now in all seriousness, the game actually allows the playstyle you claim it doesn't. You can treat the slaves well if you don't ask for unreasonable trainings and they come to love you as well... and either they lust for you once you treat them well, or at least they don't dislike the sex. i don't really see the error in the gameplay elements, only things that could be expanded.

 

[rynak]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

all i see is someone that doesn't qualify as part of our guild, the licenses are being given for free it seems, remember the training you did, personal feelings shouldn't interfere with your work and your brand.

Neither fair treatment nor feelings interfere with my brand, as long as they are limited to my personal servants, and a mutual understanding exists that those benefits have to be constantly earned with excellent performance. A useful benefit is that i don't even have to spend precious time in ensuring they won't run away - they want to serve me.

Slaves in training for sales on the other hand, are a different matter.

now in all seriousness, the game actually allows the playstyle you claim it doesn't.

Quote please. Never said that.

i don't really see the error in the gameplay elements, only things that could be expanded.

Try the post above yours. The issue is that slave lust-accumulation happens in a very unintuitive and unplausible way, when a slave performs well and is rewarded accordingly. Performance, obedience and mood are interlocked, but lust doesn't seem to significally be affected by the circumstances - it's mechanics are static. As a result, no matter how much devotion a slave develops, no matter temperament and empathy... slaves aren't in the mood for sex unless you make them so.

 

[Alploochra]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

The basis of your point is that treating your slave well, which no one says it's impossible or against the rules or against the game, does have no use.
It's a false statement.
They do respond in kind.


What you WANT is that by being nice to your slave she'll become crazily horny.
That does just not happen. There's no reason.
But you CAN kindly give them vibes or aphrodisiacs so that happens.

So in facts, in your game, with your own vision of the thing, you can make horny slaves by being kind to them.

I don't see what needs to be changed.

Going deeper, what you really want is the possibility to make a slave Nymphomaniac. And that is a possibility we're working on also through the Conditioning Module.


Edit: It seems we're going in for an arousal increase once the slave goes really deep into slavery acceptance, for Stockholm's Syndrome (melded with a highly lustful environment) sake.

 

[stuntcock42]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

Performance, obedience and mood are interlocked, but lust doesn't seem to significally be affected by the circumstances - it's mechanics are static.

Lust actually is affected by circumstances; it's just numerically constrained so that a girl will never become especially sex-hungry. Here's the relevant code which runs during "end of day" processing:

slave_rate["arousal"] += slave["stamina"] + daily_bonus["arousal"] + slave["energy"] + slave["temper"] + slave["mood"] - 6 - slave["angst"] + arousal_modifier

Because QSP lacks floating-point variables, the slave_rate dictionary contains integers which store the missing data. Essentially, you can think of them as "fractions of a point" - when you accumulate enough of them, the visible "arousal" status will increase by one notch.

Assuming that your girl is healthy, is in perfect shape (athletically), and is being pampered (full happiness + fully rested), then she'll gain (5 + 0 + 5 + 5 + 5 - 6 - 0 + 0 = 14) points. A Nymphomaniac girl is eligible for an additional daily increment of up to 15 points. Sex toys and bondage gear (such as the vaginal balls) can provide daily bonuses of 2-3.

Orgasm denial can produce enormous (25+) increases in this arousal value, but this isn't really indicative of an increased appetite for (or acceptance of) sex. It shows, instead, a need for immediate relief and is accompanied by significant changes in mood and behaviour. If the rule is rescinded (or the girl breaks the rule and has an orgasm) then her arousal will return to normal.

By contrast, here's the code for the male character:

if master_excitement < 5: master_excitement += master_libido;

At standard libido values, the character will gain 20-40 points of arousal per day. A "perfect" girl can almost keep pace with the "normal" male libido if she does nothing else whatsoever. If she's undergoing regular training, or spending time on domestic activities (cooking, cleaning, shopping, etc) then she'll be too tired to share his enthusiasm for sex.

At maximum libido, the male character will gain 160 points of arousal per day. A maxed-out nympho girl in full bondage gear might reach 50.

Thus, the game mechanics don't really encourage you to setup a healthy "symmetric" sexual relationship in which two characters are attracted to each other and have similar sexual appetites. It's possible to do so (by choosing a Libido value of 1 during character creation) but most of the pregenerated characters have Libido values of 2 or 3.

The arousal mechanic thus ties into (and reinforces) the game's backstory and themes - inequality, privilege, objectification, and dominance.

• it's possible to satisfy your character's needs by keeping a pair of normal girls (slave + assistant) in your household and fucking them regularly. The girls will not "notice" this polygyny or become jealous; their role in the game's society is to be subservient to male sexuality.
• if your character's libido has been boosted (e.g. by a magical artifact) then a more exotic approach is needed - perhaps a harem of girls in cryostorage who get cycled out each day to be fucked and then shoved back into the tube.
• if you don't take any special precautions and simply initiate sex whenever your charcter is aroused, then your partner probably won't be aroused. She'll be participating because of [duty | conditioning | fear | affection | mindbroken submission] rather than passion.
  • The game does not distinguish among these factors. It doesn't care why a girl is cooperating, because the game's society does not.
  • The only significant outcomes are refusal (which leads to punishment) or open defiance (which leads to combat), because the game's society cares about disobedient slaves. It cares so much that it kills them in various gruesome ways, so as to encourage its slave population to remain docile.
• if you attempt to avoid sex with a non-aroused partner then you'll run into difficulty - the game's math is skewed against you.
  • you can boost her arousal via foreplay, but doing so expends additional resources (it's "punished" by the game mechanics). In a sense, this action indicates that your character is lavishing special attention on a slave-girl.
    • Perhaps this is being done to "soften up" a delicate girl (who might become emotionally scarred if she was abruptly dumped into sex-training). Thus, an act which seems to be affectionate is actually a cold-hearted business decision -- once the girl has been broken in, you'll drop the foreplay and proceed to training (and eventually sale!).
    • Perhaps this is being done as a special reward for a dutiful slave-girl who has performed a meritorious deed (e.g. arena championship). Again, this fits into the game's message - her victory has increased your fame, and you can afford to squander some resources on a celebration.
    • Perhaps this is done as a matter of course - a prelude to sex with a girl for whom you feel affection. In this case, you're playing against type (sort of like a Pacifist playthough of a shoot-em-up game). It's possible, but you can't really complain that the game mechanics are unfair.
  • you can artificially boost her arousal via aphrodisiacs, vaginal balls, bondage gear, and orgasm denial. It will now be possible to have frequent "passionate" sex (in which both partners are aroused) and to satisfy your character's needs with a single girl. But you're still exercising a lot of dominance - you've reshaped this girl's life so that she would become an ideal sexual partner.
• if you deliberately setup a low-libido scenario, avoid artificial stimulation (e.g. aphrodisiacs) and have sex with a girl only when she's aroused, then you'll find it takes a very long time to train her sex skills. Before you can find a buyer, she'll have eaten so much food that you'll take a significant loss on the transaction. This pattern of gameplay is unsustainable.
  • Hence, the game encourages you to emulate the customs of its society -- to see people as disposable objects and to mistreat them in order to extract maximum profit.
  • if you want to have a happy-princess-waifu-dating experience, then you'll need to do so using the profits that you've accumulated from cold-hearted slave trading. Or you can cheat
• the game gives you ways to expend your character's "surplus" arousal. For instance, you can visit a brothel or activate the Alarm Clock rule. But these activities still tie into the game's theme - male sexuality is the driving force, and women's behaviour will be adapted to satisfy it.

Edit: It seems we're going in for an arousal increase once the slave goes really deep into slavery acceptance, for Stockholm's Syndrome (melded with a highly lustful environment) sake.

Interesting - that would fit well into the game world. The other obvious approach would be an "influence" mechanic in which a girl's attitude to sex could be gradually increased by the presence of a lustful Assistant. But perhaps that's already covered by your "lustful environment" idea.

 

[rynak]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

Lust actually is affected by circumstances; it's just numerically constrained so that a girl will never become especially sex-hungry. Here's the relevant code which runs during "end of day" processing:

slave_rate["arousal"] += slave["stamina"] + daily_bonus["arousal"] + slave["energy"] + slave["temper"] + slave["mood"] - 6 - slave["angst"] + arousal_modifier

That's interesting to say the least. I'm a bit uncertain what "daily_bonus["arousal"]" is. Another interesting - but already known - aspect is energy. I'm not sure if tying energy into this formula is a good idea. Of course in terms of "simulation" it makes sense - ESPECIALLY for negative values. But for positive ones i'm not sure that's fair - there also might be unintended consequences. What for example happens for a girl with the hyperactive trait? The description makes it sound that the penalty is lack of enjoying free time - which on its own already has possible unintended sideeffects (what happens for the various free time bonuses - are they ALL zeroed, rather than just mood?).

In any case, my original argument remains - heck, we never actually disagreed on the matter, but had different expectations. My argument was: "Whatever natural lust gain there might be for a 'happy' slave, is insignificant"

As you showed, that indeed is the case because of the large disparity between genders. And that disparity does not significantly change based on conditioning and conditions. Sure, it does change, but the change is insignificant.

Here's the contradiction in arguments - not just made by you, but also others:

If you actually buy her some nice things, make her happy, and allow her to rest, then she'll eventually think positively about sex.

This claim is blatantly untrue. Because:

Assuming that your girl is healthy, is in perfect shape (athletically), and is being pampered (full happiness + fully rested), then she'll gain (5 + 0 + 5 + 5 + 5 - 6 - 0 + 0 = 14) points.

14 points for a slave that does NOTHING the whole day. 9 Points for a maxxed out slave that ends the day with 0 energy.

In comparison:

At standard libido values, the character will gain 20-40 points of arousal per day. A "perfect" girl can almost keep pace with the "normal" male libido if she does nothing else whatsoever. If she's undergoing regular training, or spending time on domestic activities (cooking, cleaning, shopping, etc) then she'll be too tired to share his enthusiasm for sex.

At maximum libido, the male character will gain 160 points of arousal per day. A maxed-out nympho girl in full bondage gear might reach 50.

See? Insignificant no matter what. Yes, there are some calcs to take into account conditions and conditioning, but they are restricted to such low values, that any sex-drive remains insignificant. Hence, for all practical considerations, all of my arguments remain true. What we disagree in instead simply is if that is DESIRABLE. We agree on the state of things, but disagree on how it ought to be.

EDIT: A comment about the vaginal beads, so that we go full-circle: I'm 99% certain that those do not merely grant a daily bonus, but also a hourly bonus. I think i remember that either their description, or the description for "vaginal vibe" rule also states this as being so. The result is what i observed: Vag vibe allows oneself to drastically raise female lust accumulation - in an optimal situation to such a high extend, that you can max her lust in a single day.

 

[rynak]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

It seems that some people believe that a fact (in this case, the state of things), becomes more or less true, by the intentions of the person who makes the argument.

It's a common behavior, though that doesn't make it more or less true.

Still, i'll play along.... here's what i think should be the case:

First, let's take a look at the daily calcs, which stuntcock thankfully provided:

The master depending on libido gains anywhere from 20 to over 100 lust per day.

Here's what slaves get daily:

slave_rate["arousal"] += slave["stamina"] + daily_bonus["arousal"] + slave["energy"] + slave["temper"] + slave["mood"] - 6 - slave["angst"] + arousal_modifier

The maximum for a "perfect" slave is 14 points, but ONLY if she sits idle and does nothing whatsoever the whole day. If instead she ends the day with 0 energy (so, not negative), a perfect slave gains.... 9 lust at day end.

The first thing i propose is to stop rewarding surplus energy, but punish negative energy TWICE. So in summary, a further slave lust nerf.

This we compensate by taking into account pride - which is in line with the game description.

Next we buff it with devotion. (up to +5)

Finally, we take the average of all sex skills and buff with that (again, up to +5)

Our new maximum daily lust gain for a "perfect" (now actually even more "perfect", since we now take into account pride, devotion and sexual experience) slave is 24, regardless of remaining energy (as long as it isn't negative).

Hence, highly obedient, devoted, prideless and sexually trained slaves, now gain more than twice as much lust daily, as was previously the case at 0 energy. For slaves that lack those qualities, everything mostly remains as it was before, though now pride matters while energy doesn't.

 

[Alploochra]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

Everything stuntcock said

My point, exactly. Thank you sir, I feel less lonely.

Interesting - that would fit well into the game world. The other obvious approach would be an "influence" mechanic in which a girl's attitude to sex could be gradually increased by the presence of a lustful Assistant. But perhaps that's already covered by your "lustful environment" idea.

The lustful environment I was refering to is the game one's at large - nearly everything has to do with sex in Rome's society, indoor, outdoor, ...
I personaly don't think that an arousal reform is needed, but I agree that a high Awareness high Devotion slave is basically a Stockholm Syndrome's Sexual Slave to the letter and for coherence I'm okay with them gaining additional arousal (among other things, it's too late in training to allow an entire training on it). I'm dead against them gaining as much than artificially/alchemicaly aroused ones because yes, that's no waifu trainer.
But it's Boney M's stand to code it in last place, so he decides.
I'm also an advocate of expanded possibilities around arousal, so I proposed a week ago more things about it in spells, potions, and special trainings, and a dedicated type of mind broken slaves due to sensual overdose.

See? Insignificant no matter what. Yes, there are some calcs to take into account conditions and conditioning, but they are restricted to such low values, that any sex-drive remains insignificant. Hence, for all practical considerations, all of my arguments remain true. What we disagree in instead simply is if that is DESIRABLE. We agree on the state of things, but disagree on how it ought to be.

They are insignificant compared to the slaver's pulsions. A happy fit slave is okay for a lot of romping per day already. It's the slaver that is abnormal.
Stuntcock42 just explained that it's in essence the whole point of the game. You're litterally putting the game upside down. It's like adding collectible chinpokomons. Pray see the Old Hunter's design behind all this.

 

[rynak]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

A happy fit slave is okay for a lot of romping per day already.

Bullshit. You're in denial. Stuntcock, whom you agree with so much posted the cold hard maths.

Stop it with the lies, and just admit you want the current state of matters, instead of claiming things were otherwise. I can deal with different tastes, but i cannot stand hypocrites.

You're litterally putting the game upside down.

Another lie and sign you're in denial. Read my post.

The master gains 20-160 lust per day. A slave gains 0-9 lust per day at 0 energy.

I propose that a highly conditioned and sexually trained slave gains 24 lust per day, at 0 energy.

How is that putting things "upside down"? Do you understand the mathematical operation of "lower than"?

 

[Alploochra]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

Yeah, you're just ignoring 95% of his post and i'm in denial. And stupid, too, as you say. And apparently hidding that i'm okay with how it is, after saying it word for word three times.

Good day to you.

 

[rynak]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

Yeah, you're just ignoring 95% of his post and i'm in denial. And stupid, too, as you say. And apparently hidding that i'm okay with how it is, after saying it word for word three times.

Good day to you.

Go to hell, hypocrite.

 

[Alploochra]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[NaoSoul]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

This is getting out of hand. It stopped being a discussion and you are just insulting each other.

I strongly suggest that you either leave the topic or cease answering each other to stop this from escalating any further and forcing a mod to either punish you or close the topic. I don't care for the former, but it would be a shame to have this topic closed.

But then again, I am not a mod, just a guy.

On a different note, something actually related to the topic:

I can't use the version 4 of the trainer, the latest one. I can use the previous ones just fine, but when I try the program crashes as soon as I execute it. I tried running it as admin, running in compatbility mode. Nothing. Anyone got a solution for this?

 

[PaganWarlord]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

I can't use the version 4 of the trainer, the latest one. I can use the previous ones just fine, but when I try the program crashes as soon as I execute it. I tried running it as admin, running in compatbility mode. Nothing. Anyone got a solution for this?

If I recall correctly from trainer version 3 to 4 newer net framework was used.
Try installing/reinstalling net framework 4.5 and see if it helps.

 

[rynak]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

If I recall correctly from trainer version 3 to 4 newer net framework was used.
Try installing/reinstalling net framework 4.5 and see if it helps.

NET 4.5 is not available for XP, IIRC.

 

[Idian30]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

On a different note, something actually related to the topic:

I can't use the version 4 of the trainer, the latest one. I can use the previous ones just fine, but when I try the program crashes as soon as I execute it. I tried running it as admin, running in compatbility mode. Nothing. Anyone got a solution for this?

Did you copy the jack.qsp to game folder yet ?

 

[NaoSoul]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

Reinstalling Framework 4.5 worked. Many thanks, Pagan.

 

[Alploochra]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

Many thanks for your bug reports.

You must be registered to see the links

See you soon.

 

[PaganWarlord]

Re: [SLG] Jack-o-nine-tails

Looks like guys over at HF are digging hard into this games code in attempt to make something like framework for easy modding.
Pretty much WIP with a lot of speculations still, but if it works out it will be freaking epic and will mean an outburst of new content.

So just letting you guys know to keep this game from being forgotten.