A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

[Pheonix Alugere]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

On a side note, I now have a separate dungeon available that doesn't branch off of TMOY.

 

[Kathy]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Kathy, I actually had a question for you. Have you thought about multi-player dungeons at all?

I'm asking because the logical follow up to my current one would make much more sense as multi rather than single player.

I'd think the biggest things that'd need to be spelled out would be:
Ways for the players to protect one another, i.e. if one player beats a challenge and the other doesn't could the winner voluntarily take some of the loser's damage, or would you total up the girl's skills and have everyone succeed or fail as a group?
If it's the former what happens in the event of fighting a min-boss or final boss?
And how many extra points would the villain get per extra player?

Multiplayer dungeons were still being balanced. I actually had some recent discussions about how higher level dungeons aren't entirely balanced and seem to favor players already.

If you'd like to attempt multiplayer dungeons, there's a few approaches I have in mind. But this one is the one I'm going to submit for now...


WARNING!
This system is EXTREMELY untested, and is only being added so that someone can toy with it and see how it works out in practice. Good luck to anyone who tries it.

Spoiler

The dungeon's total point value is doubled (This includes all effects, such as higher levels, and any dungeon modifiers, but individual stage modifiers (like encampment) are NOT effected by the doubling effect) and there are 3 paths per stage instead of 2 paths per stage. All limits are 50% higher (rounded up). There is a -1 Challenge Rating for all players for each additional adventurer attempting the same path. (So 3 players on a path gives everyone a -2 difficulty.)

EDIT!
Thanks to Tass for pointing out my need to clarify.

The 50% higher limits means:
Instead of 5 primary for any type, you may have up to 8 primary of each type.
Instead of 3 secondary of any type, you may have up to 5 secondary of each type.
Instead of 5 (+1 per level) maximum modifiers on any challenge, you have (5 + 1 per level) x 150% limit. (8 at level 0, just add +1 per level if you're not sure >.>)

The dungeon also gains +1 level (for the villain to use) for each player joining it after the second one.
(Example: A level 3 dungeon is created using these rules.
2 players going in may both enter at level 3.
3 players may enter going in at level 2 each.
4 players can all go after it at level 1.
Or 5 players can attempt the dungeon all at level 0.)


Custom traits for multiplayer dungeons:


Stage Modifier: Different Objectives

Spoiler

Triggers: Pre-Stage
Cost to Set: 10 energy. (Cannot be hidden.) Cost is 10 energy for the entire stage.
Modifying: Costs an additional 5 energy per level of dungeon. (15 at level 1, 20 at level 2, etc.) - Note, if more adventurers (of lower level) enter a dungeon, the cost remains the same, as the dungeon's level is unchanged.

Description: Different Objectives may be used on any stage except for the final stage. If active, then the adventurers MUST attempt to split up and take different stages. (If there are more adventurers than paths, then extra adventurers may choose the same paths again if it's the path with the fewest, or tied with the fewest, adventurers attempting it... Example, a 5 adventurer run, with 3 paths... Once all three paths are taken, player 4 may choose any path again... But then, player 5 may NOT choose player 4's path, since it has 2 adventurer's on it (making the other two paths have fewer players again).

Challenge modifier: Harder as a Team

Spoiler

Triggers: Per path.
Cost to Set: 10 energy. (5 to make hidden.)
Modifying: May be applied multiple times, but will be listed as such unless hidden.
Usage notes:
This ability is best used on challenges that are already very hard and have many secondary modifiers, as the penalty/bonus of teamwork applies to both the primary AND secondary challenges. Instead of using 10 energy on a challenge with only a primary, you can simply add +1 rating for a cost of 3 instead, while challenges with many modifier costs and multipliers will often cost quite a lot more to boost without this.

Description: Using this a single time negates the -1 challenge rating benefit for multiple Adventurers attempting a challenge. Every time this effect is placed on a challenge after the first, it gives an additional +1 challenge rating for each additional Adventurer attempting the challenge. This affects both the primary and secondary challenges. (So a challenge 4 adventurers attempt to go through, with x3 Harder as a Team, would (instead of having a -3 challenge difficulty) have a +6 challenge difficulty applied.

(x3 turns it from -1 to +2. And 4 players is 3 times the effect. +2 x 3 = +6)

Stage Modifier: Teamwork

Spoiler

Triggers: When Adventurers take different paths.
Cost to Set: Gain 5 base + x1 modifier energy. (Hidden cost: 10 per path it affects.)
Modifier: Gain 5 base + x1 modifier energy to give the target challenge an additional -1 difficulty.

Description: Used for challenges where splitting up and completing challenges separately would give a greater bonus than doing a challenge together for the -1 bonus. This effect is applied on one option to give a different option a -2 difficulty, and an additional -1 further for each modifier you place on it.

Stage Modifier: Conflict

Spoiler

Triggers: When Adventurers take different paths.
Cost to Set: Cost 5 base + x1 modifier energy. (Hidden cost: 10 per path it affects.)
Modifier: Cost 5 base + x1 modifier energy to give the target challenge an additional +1 difficulty.

Description: Used for challenges where one adventurer's actions will hinder certain other actions. This effect is applied on one option to give a different option a +1 difficulty, and an additional +1 further for each modifier you place on it.

Example of use, Teamwork and Conflict:

Spoiler

Adventurers arrive at a stage where the objective is to defeat a very large, very vicious demon, the only think keeping him from escaping are the half-finished runes of containment. (This stage disallows backtracking.)

Option 1: Finish scribing the runes of trapping around the demon. The runes already in place keep him from escaping, but they're incomplete, finishing the runes will stop him instantly, but he's likely to keep attacking you while you try this.
Spirit(Combat) Teamwork-Option 2. Conflict-Option 3.

Option 2: Take on the demon directly, battling the seemingly unstoppable beast head on in an attempt to weaken him until the unfinished runes are powerful enough to contain him.
Combat(Combat) Teamwork-Option 1. Conflict-Option 3.

Option 3: Attempt to make a deal with the demon to let you pass rather than be forced to battle him, offering your magical energy to him.
Spirit(Spirit+Naughty), Encampment x2. Conflict-Option 3.

With this approach to the stage, you see that a pair of adventurers who work together will easily pass by boosting each other with Option 1 and Option 2. OR, if one of them gets greedy, they can take Option 3, which causes huge hassle to everyone else trying to clear the stage. But WORSE, if multiple Adventurers get greedy, then all of them start to suffer very, very badly from the triple challenge in Option 3, since each additional heroine taking option 3 causes everyone to take a larger penalty. It's a costly effect, but can cause a HUGE penalty, as each adventurer striking a deal with the demon would only make him stronger.

Note: In the event of more than 2 adventurers going into a dungeon, these bonuses are additive, and apply to all other adventurers. So if 2 adventurers take a "teamwork" option with -3. It will give the girl who goes on the target challenge a -6 to the challenge rating, making the challenge extremely easy to pass. While in this same example, if all 3 girls attempt Option 3, then each other girl attempting it causes a penalty to the other two. (Teamwork/Conflict can only effect other Adventurers, not the one who triggers it.)

 

[Kathy]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Brief update on the system because a few things were ignored in creating the multiplayer dungeon rules.


The "double value" is double energy. The challenge ratings and all other traits are the same, but you do NOT get extra points for the extra path challenge for the 3rd path, since this is part of the modified dungeon. (Though if you add more paths after the 3rd, you still get more energy for it.)

Minibosses that are fought will still get the -1 challenge rating per adventurer attempting it, but the -2 per attempt is individual per Adventurer.

The End Boss (stage 6) will ALSO have 3 parts instead of 2 parts. Multiple Adventurers DO get the -1 challenge rating bonus for attempting it, since all adventurers (who make it this far) must fight the End Boss together, HOWEVER! This also makes it so the end-boss is the only stage in the dungeon that may NOT! Have the "Harder as a Team" bonus, since this could make some End-Bosses unwinnable by larger teams.

Note: The adventurers go after the dungeon together, this does NOT necessarily mean they're going to finish it together. Although the rules for rescuing someone are listed below, this doesn't mean you NEED to rescue a fallen girl. A dungeon is not over until all of the girls have either defeated the end boss, or gameovered, OR! If the ones who have defeated the end-boss don't want to go back to rescue the gameovered girls anymore.


Similar to the way adventurers must beat both challenges (though not in the same attempt) to win in a normal dungeon End Boss, the Adventurers must now beat all three challenges (also, does not need to be in the same attempt) to defeat the End Boss. (Example, if Adventurer A beats Part 1, then fails Part 2 and Part 3 on her first roll... Then Fails Part 1, but beats Part 2 and Part 3 on her second roll, she wins. Since she's beaten all 3 parts (even if not on the same attempt).)


"Rescuing". Defeated Adventurers may be rescued by those still active, by one of the adventurers who has passed the stage using the Backtracking ability to go attempt the challenge that an Adventurer ally lost in. This attempt is at +4 Challenge Rating. Note: This includes on the End Boss, for ALL challenges included in it, Rescuing against the End Boss especially is designed to be very, very hard.

Failure means the adventurer attempting to rescue her ally takes damage accordingly, but as long as she is not defeated in the attempt, the rescue is still successful (Note, unless against a miniboss, where the only way to finish the challenge is to beat it).

Rescued Adventurers will keep their stats from when they were defeated (including zero Willpower), but may continue through the dungeon anyhow until losing a challenge that causes at least 1 willpower of damage. The challenge they were rescued from is considered passed.

Extra note: Rescuing girls from the End-Boss is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT. All three stat rolls must be made, and all at +4 challenge rating, as if it was the first time you were fighting the boss (Your previous -2 per attempt stacking bonus is immediately erased each time you re-attempt a miniboss or boss fight, although you can build this up again), while the adventurer attempting the rescue will take full damage from everything. However, in a rescue attempt, only ONE roll needs to pass in order for it to be successful.

Why the leniency on only requiring one pass? Because unlike other rescues where the rescued girl is dragged past the challenge, with the End-Boss she must still defeat him. All of her previous bonuses are kept (-2 per attempt), PLUS a -2 from the attempt she failed (not an extra -2, just the one she's get normally), but (here's the kicker) since her stats are so low, any damage done to her through her continued failures now damage the rescuer first.

(Example: A Combat (24) challenge is failed by 8 points. The Rescued girl has only 2/20 hp left, and 0 willpower (naturally). However, the girl who rescued her has 12/30 hp and 3/12 willpower. From this roll, the girl who rescued her now takes 8 points of HP damage, and neither of them gameover.

On the next roll though, when she fails by another 12 points, (2 hp / 0 will Rescued Girl. 4 hp / 3 will Rescuer. = 9 points) And the pair only has 9 points to resist the attack together, BOTH of them gameover together.


Giving a Hand. Adventurers may sacrifice 1 willpower to inspire their fellows in one specific stat, recovering 1 point of any non-willpower stat for the adventurer of her choice. Or she may sacrifice 3 points of any other stat to restore 1 willpower. (Yes, this is expensive. It's not designed to be easily used to "cash in" your weak stat to buff others, but still cheap enough so that teams can benefit if one character is well ahead of the others and wants to help out.)


Edit: changed my mind on the end-boss. It makes sense the Adventurers should get a bonus for how many make it to the end. Clarification on the way to defeat an End-Boss.
Edit2: Clarified a few more things.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Well, I've got a test for the multyplayer system up, and I still need at least one more person. Any takers?

 

[Archer]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Life is a bit less hectic now, open to helping test out the system I've enjoyed so much

 

[FireoftheMonkey]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Ok I'll bring this forward here because the more I look at it the more I do think this is mainly just a variant of this system. I understand you guys were looking for a way to make dungeons able to be more stages than just six without breaking the system, and making it impossible for the heroin to win.

As such here is my suggestion on that, it is variant and if you don't think it's balance-able that is cool, hell I am not sure I have it balanced or can figure out how to solo. Anyways the change up is HP, Mana, Lewd, and Stamina, instead of them being a rpg sytle hp system, shift them to a warhammer style wound system. Now of course it would be impossible to keep this balanced with character creation as it stands, so I think if you keep the points the same, either have the wounds be 1 for 1 on the four main, but 2 for 1 in will power. Or simply take out the ability to put points into them, and instead the hp values for these things is the stat divided by 2 rounded up. thus if you have 7 combat you have 4 wounds worth of HP. Will power still starts at 1, and I honestly have no idea how one would increase it, which is the main issue I'm seeing with this variant idea as it stands.

Anyways that is just an idea that popped into my head, like it, hate it, it's all good. I just have one other question, which this is more for Kathy than anyone else.

What do you think to letting characters pick their combat and utility skill, I realize combat is something everyone needs to mess with, and magic is able to be avoided, but if the character can pick them. Meaning a mage can have two types of magic in there, then we have fewer characters with 0's in any stat. Which I think is better for their ability to actually complete dungeons. This being said the four as they stand right now are extremely good and vague so you can make most any character with them, I just think that would add to the ability for players to be creative in how their character fights and deals with situations. And I think creativity and new interesting ideas to deal with problems is a lot more interesting to read and play than just mechanics grinding (I am sorry for giving the impression you guys are not creative. That is not what I mean, I just couldn't think of another way to describe it, It's just I saw one where a character had 0-2 magic and because of the story would still try spells. And I sat there going, hmm that seems odd and really if the character does not know magic at all why would they even try. thus this idea.)

Anyways it's an understandably long post because I put out a couple of ideas. Also I think I'm going to go edit my dungeon post, see you guys around.

 

[Zenath]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

As such here is my suggestion on that, it is variant and if you don't think it's balance-able that is cool, hell I am not sure I have it balanced or can figure out how to solo. Anyways the change up is HP, Mana, Lewd, and Stamina, instead of them being a rpg sytle hp system, shift them to a warhammer style wound system. Now of course it would be impossible to keep this balanced with character creation as it stands, so I think if you keep the points the same, either have the wounds be 1 for 1 on the four main, but 2 for 1 in will power. Or simply take out the ability to put points into them, and instead the hp values for these things is the stat divided by 2 rounded up. thus if you have 7 combat you have 4 wounds worth of HP. Will power still starts at 1, and I honestly have no idea how one would increase it, which is the main issue I'm seeing with this variant idea as it stands.

Anyways that is just an idea that popped into my head, like it, hate it, it's all good. I just have one other question, which this is more for Kathy than anyone else.

What do you think to letting characters pick their combat and utility skill, I realize combat is something everyone needs to mess with, and magic is able to be avoided, but if the character can pick them. Meaning a mage can have two types of magic in there, then we have fewer characters with 0's in any stat. Which I think is better for their ability to actually complete dungeons. This being said the four as they stand right now are extremely good and vague so you can make most any character with them, I just think that would add to the ability for players to be creative in how their character fights and deals with situations. And I think creativity and new interesting ideas to deal with problems is a lot more interesting to read and play than just mechanics grinding (I am sorry for giving the impression you guys are not creative. That is not what I mean, I just couldn't think of another way to describe it, It's just I saw one where a character had 0-2 magic and because of the story would still try spells. And I sat there going, hmm that seems odd and really if the character does not know magic at all why would they even try. thus this idea.)

Changing to a wound system would be simultaneously harsh and easy - suddenly, failing a minor challenge becomes a big deal, whereas losing a boss roll would become par for the course. The current system's variability in damage and effect allows for a lot more suspense and creativity with setting up rooms, I think. The dungeon rules would have to be largely built up from scratch, too. There is something to be said for the Warhammer system, but I'm not sure it's so good for a roleplaying system as opposed to grand wargaming.

To my knowledge, there's only one mainstream roleplaying system which uses that kind of wounds system (Dark Heresy) - but that makes every wound precious, as if damage slips past your armour, it hurts.

That could work as an expansion for longer games, actually - instead of having 'health' for each stat, you instead of 'resistance', that is, the amount subtracted from any damage you take. The remaining damage is set straight to willpower. Of course, that'd need rebalancing, with larger amounts of will and smaller resistances. But it wouldn't require much change to the current dungeon rules. Possibly make two 'pass' thresholds for challenges; the first is how much you need to beat the challenge, the second is used for calculating damage. So it's possible to beat a challenge but still take damage - which your resists will then (hopefully) take care of.

As to the stats quibble, my concern with that is the issue of translating stuff from the player into the dungeon. So long as you take a loose approach to the definitions of 'combat' and 'magic'/'tech' and your player gives you something to work with for whatever they specialise in, I don't see a problem. Hell, maybe even be a little flexible with which stat you test based on what they come up with? LH/Archer's Pyramid round, with the Combat test being switched for a Spirit one on the final boss, is a perfect example.

I think that largely, it comes down to roleplaying. A rose by any other name and all that. If the player communicates and the villain puts a little thought into it, anything else is just quibbling.

Also, hi folks. Newish person. Dungeon posted, Kathy apparently found it very impressive >>

 

[Kathy]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

@Fire:
-----
Okay... first thing I can think of asking is...
What do you mean by a wound system?

I have no idea WHAT you're talking about when you keep refering to that.

The reason I gave characters so many points was a matter of balance. When I generated the system with 6 stages, I created it with the idea that a perfectly balanced dungeon, the heroine should win just over half the time.

This is then complimented with customization, heroines make certain stats preferred and use them more, villains make certain challenges weaker to cause extra damage. All in all, it balances out. For a while there at first, either everyone was winning, then everyone was losing, and both times I double-checked the system and came back to the same conclusion. The system (generally) works.


I can see why you'd think characters with low magic wouldn't try to use it, but that's why I call everything so vaguely and leave it up to the Villain to make the story. If a character walks into a dungeon that requires magic, there's thousands of ways to explain why she may have SOME ability, even if her stats are zero. It could just be a naturally magic-rich dungeon, or it could be less a trial of spellcasting, and rather simply using natural power to open something... Or hell, since items are not actually counted in the system (something I did on purpose), the heroine could simply say she has a magic-thingy that lets her attempt certain tasks, conveniently enough, exactly like the one she ran into.


It all comes down to this. If YOU want to change your mechanics some. I've added more than enough ways to do it. The reason most people go with it "as is" is because they seem to agree, the balance I've created is fairly good.


Your last suggestion also eludes me. Could you try to explain this better. "letting characters pick their combat and utility skill"? Also, how would characters picking a skill make them have fewer zero stats? Zero stats are there for a balancing factor, if someone has a zero, it means their other stats are notably higher.



@Zenath
-----
Although a damage system where you can "pass" and still take damage makes sense overall, it doesn't fit the system balance as it stands. This could be a creative addition for dungeons though, and if you wrote up some idea of how it could work, we could give it a whirl.

As it stands, the test system's primary challenge is mostly to decide a pass/fail, while secondaries are often used to dish out the heavy damage after a failure. Your idea would be a fun way to give Primary challenges a bit more bite. I may add this in a bit.


As for flexibility like Archer's boss. I generally frown upon using this option because it starts to unbalance and the heroine can 'cop out' by using her stronger stat constantly. If every stage had a dual-option like this, any heroine with one overwhelmingly high stat could breeze through virtually anything thrown at her. HOWEVER. In limited usage, this is more than allowed, and I (think I) gave Archer the final go-ahead to use this because of the way he explained his boss to me.

The system is here for a reason. That reason... It's "easy". Compared to all of the complicated, messy, over the top, full-time GM position systems that people launch, only to burn out badly after a few days and let it fall by the wayside... This system allows for everyone to get in on the action and REALLY enjoy the act of roleplaying out, both the typical "GM" role (Villain) and the player role (Adventurer).

So although I try to keep everyone on the guidelines of the system, when people actually have something really in mind for manipulating something special (more than just "I want to win" or simply mis-counting and making a dungeon way too strong without realizing it), I usually let it slide without a second thought.


This is actually one reason I used such specific values as "spirit" and "combat" instead of "strength" and "magic". Since I didn't want someone randomly always saying, "Well if it's combat, I can use magic to throw a fireball at the thing." Instead, "Combat" becomes just that. If you're a mage with low combat score, it means, quite literally, that not only do you not have physical talent at fighting, but you ALSO lack good spells for fighting. While a mage with a high combat could simply step in and blow up enemies with fireballs.


This system is meant to be very, very open-ended, and roleplay oriented. So take advantage of it and have fun!

(p.s. Yes, I do check my PMs and this thread daily (as long as I can get to my computer), and although I neglect the awards thread a bit, since it requires reading through full RPs, I make it a point to keep on top of new ideas and approving dungeons.

And just for good measure to add: Zenath's dungeon was one of the best formats I've seen submitted, and it's a wonderfully well built idea. We've got a natural GM here in terms of story and system usage, and if Zenath RPs even half as good, then we've got an awesome villain in the works.)

 

[Tassadar]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

@Wound System: The idea is, instead of using the current hp systems, the characters would lose 1 point of willpower or whichever stat the roll is based on whenever they fail to meet a roll. these stats would be reduced to account for this, so instead of, say, 60 hp, you'd have 6.

 

[Zenath]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

@Zenath
-----
Although a damage system where you can "pass" and still take damage makes sense overall, it doesn't fit the system balance as it stands. This could be a creative addition for dungeons though, and if you wrote up some idea of how it could work, we could give it a whirl.

As it stands, the test system's primary challenge is mostly to decide a pass/fail, while secondaries are often used to dish out the heavy damage after a failure. Your idea would be a fun way to give Primary challenges a bit more bite. I may add this in a bit.

System works perfectly as is, I was just throwing that out there as a possible alternative system to allow for more longevity. Because of the use of resistances instead of 'health', you'd have to fail quite badly to actually take damage. Lemme give a couple of examples.

Say you have an average challenge, something that would be Challenge 16 under current rules. Under the alternate rules, that might become Pass 14/Clean 18. Assuming a Skill of 5 and a Resist of 5, if the Heroine rolls 7 or less, she fails and takes damage (7+5 = 12, fails check. 18-12 -5 = 1, one point of damage.) A roll of 8 fails but inflicts no damage. 9 passes.

Now, although it'd require some balancing, this helps elongate the dungeon. A horrific roll will still inflict damage, but if well balanced (or luckily chosen), the heroine will get by fine.

Now let's look at a boss challenge. Say Skill of 5, Resist of 5 again. This check, which might be 20 under current rules, becomes 18/25. It's easier to pass the check and thus defeat the boss, but you have to roll really well to avoid damage.

This system has two implications - one, you can differentiate between 'everyday' obstacles and really dramatic ones; let's face it, getting a Game Over from failing to open a door is not everyone's hope and dream, while going up against a Succubus is another matter. So there's a bit of a roleplay attraction to it.

The other is that it helps to increase the longevity of the game. If a room is less likely to do damage, then you can afford to put more of them in.

I'm simply throwing it out as a possible way of expanding. Still just the one roll has to be made for each challenge, and potentially it allows for a longer dungeon. That said, I don't think it's necessary for the current system - though having the pass/clean pass check as an alternative to the basic primary roll could have an interesting spice to it

 

[Pheonix Alugere]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

• Bosses deal damage by having people fail against them multiple times.
• If you fail a challenge aside from a mini-boss or boss challenge, you still get past it, so I don't understand how you would take damage from something you succeeded on.
• why would you ever have any points in damage resistance instead of having everything in the skill itself. I mean, your example effectively has the person with 5 skill/ 5 resistance having a roll at +5 to beat the challenge and +10 to avoid the damage. It would be nonsensical to not have 10 skill and 0 resistance.

 

[Kathy]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Although it's not fun to lose against opening a door, that's one reason why early challenges aren't often lost against, once the character gets past a few steps, it starts to get tougher.

Health in other stats doesn't recover (unless using an encampment or other bonus), which is why the system is generally balanced.

Resistances are a potential option. But it's one of those things that would take a bit of balancing. Plus I don't see how it would help dungeons become longer.

 

[FireoftheMonkey]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Wound system like in Warhammer 40 K. Pretty much here is the easy break down, you have wounds, if you fail a test no matter how badly you lose one wound. Wether or not you move forward is determined by the challenger the what exactly the lost wound did to you. Understandably it's different and not many games use it, the only one is really warhammer, and it's constituents. Anyways that is just what popped into my head when thinking one bored night about how to make dungeons longer without making it unpassable by heroins. It is a weird suggestion that probably wouldn't work but eh I figure it's better to say the suggestion and get chewed out for it then keep a possibly good suggestion to yourself.

And honestly the last one, after thinking about it it's just something that I honestly have little to no idea what I mean by it. So just forget it, the base idea was that a mage could enter combat and not fight with a sword, he would fight with a fireball or offensive spell of that kind. So thus 'combat' the skill could be replaced with offensive magic or what ever you wanna name that. utility would take the place of 'spirit' which from what I see peopel using it for isn't really spell casting so much as, hmm I need to think up some interesting way to get past this casm or trap without just breaking the dumb thing. It was just an idea, it gives a completely rouge character with no magic the ability to use something like lockpicking/theivery towards those tasks instead of just magic. after thinking about it I really can't think of any way to really impliment it at all so it is kinda a moot point.

 

[Kathy]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Don't consider this chewing out. Discussion of your idea shows interest. What I'm really doing is poking at your idea from a few different angles and seeing if it holds water in this system.

Although you could simply change the system like that, so failing causes a "wound", all you're really doing is condensing the HP counter so instead of taking 5 or so damage from a fail, you take 1 damage that you then rename as a "wound". Really, I see no benefit in this. Sorry.


As for your second idea, yeah. It's not really able to be added since you want to rip out the Villain's ability to create a dungeon and just free-give skills to heroines.

With my previous post, I already explained. "Combat" isn't necessarily fist to fist. "Combat" also implies combat magic. Offensive spells the heroine may know. A high level mage may, for example, have a very low Spirit score because she's focused all her time and effort into learning attack magic. Or she may falter on explore because she doesn't know any spells to help her moving around.

The problem is that the villain's dungeon must always be created centered around the skills in question. So specifying skills too much renders most dungeons unplayable.

But if you plan on launching custom dungeons yourself, try changing skills up! Here's some examples of how you can change skills to create yourself a custom world. Simply replace Combat, Spirit, Explore, and Naughty with...

Mage Skillset

Spoiler

Offensive Spells, Utility Spells, Travel Magic, and (random XXX skill.)
A fairly straightforward skillset, spells and magic, with a final XXX option, here some variants for that even:

Variant 1 - Just keep Naughty. A sexually abused mage is as badly beaten as a sexually abused any other adventurer.
Variant 2 - Replace Naughty with "Shame". Instead of just allowing sexual actions to violate her, have anything embarrassing or shameful (including "naughty" things) spread around like rumors. Who wants a mage to come to town that's got THAT reputation, after all? If her shame gets too high, she'll lose her position as an adventurer and hide away rather than be publicly taunted further.
Variant 3 - Could create a world where only virgins can wield magic and her Naughty is replaced by "defensive magic" specifically regarding protecting her precious virginity, making a GO sequence lead to her being violated and losing her power.

Superheroine Skillset

Spoiler

Wrecking (destroy giant robots, break through walls, etc.),
Endurance (all heros have some villain that pushes them to their physical limits),
Injury Protection (Be it body armor and badass ballistic ballet, or just being tough as superman),
and Secret Identity (Aha! Something new!)

Always assume the heroine CAN take out her opponents, it's just a matter of reaching them. For example, if thrown into combat against a giant walking spider with a minigun, she's faced with Wrecking(Injury Protection). A success will cause an awesome Batman-style throwing an exploding pellet at it's weak point and making it explode. Or Superman-esque rushing up behind it and crushing it with a single punch. While failing the primary and moving to injury protection would mean it's minigun trains in on you... And then we still have the Batman approach, of dodging it's gunfire until he can take it out, or Superman's usual approach of getting shot at until he simply resists the bullets, rushes up and punches it anyhow XD

Naughty attacks can still occur as a variant of the other stats (or a fifth stat if you insist), but since the heroine is only going to get pissed off at it, it's not likely a useful move. Instead, when that Rape-Bot-5000 is busy plugging her ass with her pussy on display for the city... casually let it reach up and tug at that mask a bit. Because even if she eventually "wins" the day, if every villain in Gotham/Metropolis suddenly knows her secret identity, her victory will be very short-lived, to say the least, as the newly upgraded Rape-Bot-6000 suddenly bursts into her apartment every night to stretch that ass to it's breaking point!


Variant!
Make a custom super-villain with some kind of special power that he can use against the heroine. Discuss it with the Adventurer ahead of time to decide what this will be as her fifth stat. It could be as simple as Kryptonite, or as fun as Hypnosis. And suddenly instead of just being exposed, our heroine is now happily flying around the city in her new "costume", bare breasted, mask off, and the emblem of the villain tattooed on her ass as she helps him keep his oppressive reign over the world, mwahahaha!

Legend of Zelda Skillset (just since the Zelda CYOA was so popular. Meh, I really should update that.)

Spoiler

Hearts (And fairies!), Mana, One-Shot items, Triforce Essence (or read variants)

Another simple one. Hearts are combat based, mana for special spells. One-Shots include bombs, arrows, deku sticks, whatever. Then have the plot setup that Ganon's minions are out to not merely rape our femmy link, but actually steal her triforce essence as they ravage her body, so if they succeed enough, they'll not only drag Link's (well fucked) body to their king, but her piece of the triforce to boot.

Alternately, The Legend of Zelda 2 plot is an aftermath of the first game, where Link has sealed Ganon away, and his followers are now hunting Link down, trying to kill him (her) so that Ganon can be released. It isn't a very large stretch of the imagination to give this a number of variants. But just for good measure, here's a couple:

Variant 1: Ganon's Seal. An obvious one, Link's precious willpower holds Ganon at bay, and raping her to destroy her will should be an easy idea, since the monsters have long since learned Link always carries a few extra fairies around with her, making a clean kill nearly impossible.

Variant 2: Pregnancy/Rebirth of Ganon. Monsters attempt to impregnate Link with what will be reborn as Ganon's new body, knocking her up with a spell of protection over the newborn that would force Link to care for it, even knowing what it will become. A very degrading defeat to have the king of evil Link fought so hard to defeat reborn through her womb and suckling at her motherly breasts.

What's that? More? You still don't have enough ideas on variations of the system!

Fallout 3 skillset! (Didn't expect this, did ya?)

Spoiler

Weapons/Ammo, Clothes/Armor, Rations/Stimpacks, Contamination

Notice no HP, we can assume our heroine can get through most light scrapes without worry thanks to one hour full-heal power-naps, instead rations and stimpacks become her biggest concern. Although you can feel free to adapt this however you'd like with stat variations and changes. This system would center around the idea of our noble heroine having already become famous and traveling through a dangerous area to complete some task while keeping her natural fame. Running out of ammo/weapons would make it impossible to reach the end, burning out of rations/stimpacks would leave her vulnerable in larger fights where that tiny health buff does wonders, showing up to the meeting naked would obviously undermine her position as a wasteland heroine (or badass, depending on your approach to play) and make the entire trip worthless, and then... Contamination. I think based on this forum, we all know some "fun" ways to give a heroine in FO3 a nice dose of radiation, don't we?

And, of course, as always, these stats can be changed and adapted however you see fit to work your own game. So be creative!

More you say? How about a silly one.

Mario Skillset

Spoiler

Powerups!, Run and Jump!, Stomping Power! (hammer/punch/etc available depending on gameworld setting), EEEEEEEEK! (aka, Kidnap/Naughty)

The Princess is at it again! Or perhaps princesses? Or hell, a lone koopa girl out against all of her brethren? ... or a yoshi cutie freshly broken free from her shell and trying to find her fellows? ... ... or just an everyday toadette caught in the middle of bad stuff? ... ... ... Or a genderswapped Mario and Luigi out for another grand adventure? ... ... ... ... ... ... ... or genderswapped Bowser?

It doesn't matter! Bwahahaha! All that matters is making a plot and deciding which kinds of characters you'll allow.

Better yet! Use the "hidden path" rule to generate custom challenge options for different characters.

Maybe a certain enemy type only Yoshis can defeat, by swallowing them and egging them (oviposition), or something that only a goomba/toad could be small enough to crawl through, or an enemy a koopa-girl could get naked by sliding her shell off and kick it at the thing *snickers*. What about a wild Princess Fan that's got all of the collectables and trading cards of them, who'll help a gal out in exchange for a dirty picture or three?

The options go on and on, and it's all about how the Villain makes the dungeon!

Get the idea yet that this system was specifically made to NOT need to rely on constantly coming up with specific stats for every little possible occurance? The generic stat method of throwing a challenge together to fit the RP, then running it with fairly generic character-creation was entirely meant to let anyone run anything as a kind of GM-Lite. Less hassle, more RP. Play down the specifics like "well can I cast another fireball without running out of mana?" or "what do I roll to hit?" Or the hideously over-seen "Yeah, I know this is the FIFTH PAGE OF FIGHTING THE SAME MONSTER."


In fact: If you have an RP idea but don't know what stats to use, post it here, and either I, or someone else here, will make something up for you!

 

[FireoftheMonkey]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

OK new suggestion. Looking at the dungeon stuff how about some way to get the ability to attack willpower, without needing to drain another stat to zero. I understand this sound broken as hell right off the bat so just hear me out real quick.

Secondary attack, functions as normal for this type of secondary challenge but it damage will power directly. Here is where the balance thing comes in, it starts dealing the damage divided by 4, to a minimum of one. The math looks like this (damage done / 4) understandably that doesn't need to be stated as such but I figure it's better to have it in both English and math. Anyways point cost terms it should probably be the same, or only like five points extra. That is where I have no idea, what to do with it, I have this idea for a dungeon but in it I wanna have a challenge that can directly damage their will power without dealing damage to the other stat. Think a nectar or poison that does not hurt your body, just effects how effective you are at fighting off control, aka will power. If you guys don't think this is balance able that is cool, just kinda sitting here working on my next dungeon and figured I can manage it without but it would be cool if I could do that. Another possible balance option is giving it a dungeon level requirement. Like you can do this but only if your dungeon is level 3 or higher.

Secondary suggestion, the ability to make the primary chalange for one of hte two paths selectable. Pretty much there is a primary that you can use either combat or spirit to deal with, then there is a second one that might not have that option. This actually weakens the challenge, from a villian stand point, mainly becasue it makes it more likely the heroin will have a good stat to fight off this challenge. So my only thought on this one is why not have it give some points back. Not a lot of points because then that can be abused, but like five or ten points I think wouldn't be too crazy.

These are my two newest suggestions, just two things that inside the mechanics are not really covered. Thus I was wondering if we could brainstorm some ways to get this stuff in, because I think both of these make the dungeons for interesting to make from a villain standpoint, and I would assume more interesting to play from a heroin stand point. having not played a heroin I can not really say...that and I only have one person doing my dungeon atm. So exp is not something I have in spades right now.

 

[Kathy]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

The entire point of willpower was to create a "catch all" against the other attacks. Creating a way to attack it directly would break balance. By forcing Adventurers to need to buff willpower just to avoid losing from a couple willpower challenges placed at the wrong time, it makes the concept of the stat useless. Willpower exists to give characters a choice, 100% for a stat that may not be attacked, or 60% for a stat that will always work as a last resort. Even with your suggestion of dropping it's damage so low, it still hurts the Adventurer's options and the system unnecessarily.

As for your second idea, I already made comment to this effect. The Villain should have their options fairly well defined when creating the dungeon, and if you want to insert a multiple option for your primary, it's at your own loss. If you want to make options without such a loss, add path options and generate more points from that.

 

[Zenath]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

After having played through most of Ghosts of the Storm, I'm forced to conclude that my original arguments here don't actually apply all that well. No matter, no harm in throwing stuff out there, right? ^^

 

[Kathy]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

After having played through most of Ghosts of the Storm, I'm forced to conclude that my original arguments here don't actually apply all that well. No matter, no harm in throwing stuff out there, right? ^^

I kinda like your "resistance" idea for making games longer, as I've thought of ways to let it restore HP too potentially. Not going to add it right away, but my idea would be boost the challenge ratings by a few points, then add a "resistance" gap, where characters can get hit, but still take no damage. Depending on resistance, characters may avoid taking primary damage, only to take massive secondary damage then. Or even get hit with primary, and block secondary.

This would also potentially open up that particularly high rolls may heal characters in longer dungeons.

I'll work out some stats later, but please, feel free to keep offering suggestions. You never know when you're sitting on a gem of an idea.

 

[Zenath]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Something I came up with that could be interesting as a variant boss challenge (though it would have to be quite expensive) - a 'PvP'-style challenge. That is, instead of a fixed difficulty, the boss has two particular stats, same as the heroine. For example, say we've got our plucky knight heroine going up against an ogre mage with Spirit and Combat.

Let's say that our heroine has 10 combat and 2 spirit, and the ogre has 6 of each. Then, instead of a standard roll against a fixed challenge, you'd have:

Combat - Knight (2+10 = 12) vs Ogre (1+6 = 7), Knight wins
Spirit - Knight (9+2 = 11) vs Ogre (20+6 = 26), Ogre wins

I'm not sure how well it would work in practice; it's something I came up with during a somewhat unusual endboss scenario for Hunting of the Wolf that felt like it would make a little more sense than the usual. I imagine it would be damn hard to balance, and it does stray a little towards the 'endless rolls' zone that BSOA is trying to avoid, but I figured I'd throw it out there for consideration anyway... no harm in brainstorming, eh?

 

[Kathy]

Re: A little OOC and open suggestions for Both Sides. (Ask questions here too.)

Hmm... So what you're aiming for is, if I understand this...

A "boss" or "miniboss" type, that instead of just re-rolls until the heroine succeeds, it has a certain amount of hit points that the heroine must defeat it by.

So if it had 10 hp, then the heroine must win by 10, or win multiple times that add up to 10.

Which... If we allowed this, could actually create PvP scenarios between girls who reach certain checkpoints or the end of missions. Perhaps even allow an end-dungeon where the result is the girls PvP each other to decide the winner?

I like it.

Send me some PMs on your ideas for balancing, and we'll see about adding it to the system.