Kimochi shutting down

[YummyTiger]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

I'd say good riddance, but...

They said something about April 1st...

I call shenanigans and tomfoolery

I'm truly confused, why on Earth would you WANT a English game distribution system to fail? Do you not like playing English h-games? DLSite is mediocre at best, and competition would only force them to improve.

 

[Omnikuken]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

^ Not trying to play the devil-douche-advocate, but I doubt Dlsite would improve their service if an english distributor came out. They got a good chunk of both japanese and english doujin h-games market already. There's also like 5-6+ distributors in japanese only, do you see them bending over to us (consumers) trying to appeal to our every needs ? Nope. They in fact empower more censorship (latest Umemaro "game" was delayed ~2 weeks between DMM and Dlsite for the sole reason Dlsite didn't like the [light] censorship used, while DMM didn't [at least not as much as to delay]), probably still take more % of sales than many others and the whole "screw murica 'cause it's not japan" mentality ........

/stillnotarantthoughitsureseemslikeone

 

[YummyTiger]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

^ Not trying to play the devil-douche-advocate, but I doubt Dlsite would improve their service if an english distributor came out. They got a good chunk of both japanese and english doujin h-games market already. There's also like 5-6+ distributors in japanese only, do you see them bending over to us (consumers) trying to appeal to our every needs ? Nope. They in fact empower more censorship (latest Umemaro "game" was delayed ~2 weeks between DMM and Dlsite for the sole reason Dlsite didn't like the [light] censorship used, while DMM didn't [at least not as much as to delay]), probably still take more % of sales than many others and the whole "screw murica 'cause it's not japan" mentality ........

/stillnotarantthoughitsureseemslikeone

That only seems to support the need for a better English distribution system. Again, it seems like it makes no sense to have wanted Kimochi to fail. I ask because I must be missing something, everything about Kimochi seemed like they had good intentions. They made a number of mistakes, but the intentions behind the system seemed like it would only help/improve the English market.

 

[Deleted member 143735]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

It would have made sense if they had more experience in software as a service/paas before trying to make their first one and dragging a niche community down with them. Anybody can look at what transfer rates and costs are for web services. If they are shutting down because of transfer costs, they should be taking a proportionate cut from sales for the bandwidth consumer. For example: you put a 4gb game on their platform and only 1 person buys it versus 100 people buying a 40mb game both at the same price. Obviously the more popular game will pay for itself and the big unpopular game will 1) shit up the marketplace and 2) shit up your bandwidth costs. This is just a part of the lack of oversight that we are seeing and I am sure there are other issues that haven't reared their head yet. Visual quality does not mean actual product quality for all intensive purposes.

My suggestion for anybody trying to sell their game outside of dlsite is to host a majority of the game (as a demo without all of the content) on a low or no cost hosting site. Use a pay system to automate sending of the remainder of the game content as an unlock file or whatever you pick. If you have no idea what I am talking about, then consider hiring a consultant or a professional like me
Also it looks like patreon has made an API available as of late november '15. It is a little slim on features but it *does* include "A "fetch me my patron's info plz" endpoint
Get back a list of every patron currently pledging to you, along with how much they're pledging, etc." which means that if somebody writes you a program to use the API, it can automate your user interactions to an extent.

 

[BlueBurn]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

I don't see anything wrong with DLsite. I know some of you think they take too large of a cut from the developers. However, that is how publishing works. Publishing the product is a financial risk so the only way you can sustain these risks is by having a decent financial return from the ones that are successful. It's the same with any publishing industry. Go look at any of them.

As for the western H game market, I think there just isn't enough talent in the development scene. It's not nice to say, but it's the truth. It's just the level that things are currently at. The Japanese scene does have a lot of trash games but it also has a lot of very good ones and each one that gets translated gives the western devs something they currently struggle to compete with.

In my opinion, currently the most efficient way to grow the western market is to focus on translation because there are so many good Japanese H games and translating those is easier than developing something of similar quality.

 

[YummyTiger]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

As for the western H game market, I think there just isn't enough talent in the development scene. It's not nice to say, but it's the truth. It's just the level that things are currently at. The Japanese scene does have a lot of trash games but it also has a lot of very good ones and each one that gets translated gives the western devs something they currently struggle to compete with.

In my opinion, currently the most efficient way to grow the western market is to focus on translation because there are so many good Japanese H games and translating those is easier than developing something of similar quality.

That's just silly. With the population pool you are talking about, there is plenty of talent there. Translations have their place, without a doubt, but so does original content.

There are a lot of good Japanese games, but the vast majority of poor to mediocre, or, if they are good, they are quite short. Go ahead and translate, but I feel you're doing a disservice to yourself (if you like h-games) by pushing a translation first mentality. Original English games would surpass Japanese for a western audience if the market grew large enough. If for no other reason than Japanese games a reliant on Japanese culture in many ways, so to properly understand them, you have to also understand that culture. Some people like that, some don't.

As for talent, just look on this board, there is already talent in place. Patreon is ensuring that more and more move into the game development scene. Sure, some will be weak/mediocre, but that is no different than the Japanese market. I've picked apart nearly every game I've played in RPG Maker, and I can tell you, the Japanese are not doing things any better for the most part than English devs. If you'd like more details on why, I can PM you specifics.

At least now though, I kind of grasp the resistance to Kimochi in your case. I don't agree, but I can see it. Also, in today's world, the "publisher" stance you talk about it not necessarily appropriate. I'd personally never use DLSite, because as an English author, it is a poor marketplace at best. In no way worth the sizable chunk they are taking. If you sell to Japanese, then maybe.

 

[BlueBurn]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

At least now though, I kind of grasp the resistance to Kimochi in your case. I don't agree, but I can see it. Also, in today's world, the "publisher" stance you talk about it not necessarily appropriate. I'd personally never use DLSite, because as an English author, it is a poor marketplace at best. In no way worth the sizable chunk they are taking. If you sell to Japanese, then maybe.

I don't have any resistance to it. I was just saying that the grievances I've seen with DLsite aren't really valid due to the financial realities of their business.

 

[bigjimslade]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

That's just silly. With the population pool you are talking about, there is plenty of talent there. Translations have their place, without a doubt, but so does original content.

There are a lot of good Japanese games, but the vast majority of poor to mediocre, or, if they are good, they are quite short. Go ahead and translate, but I feel you're doing a disservice to yourself (if you like h-games) by pushing a translation first mentality. Original English games would surpass Japanese for a western audience if the market grew large enough. If for no other reason than Japanese games a reliant on Japanese culture in many ways, so to properly understand them, you have to also understand that culture. Some people like that, some don't.

Well, it seems that it's up to us to tip the tides of 'lack of talent'. Think we'll start by making a western-based h game

 

[Sourjelly]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

I don't see anything wrong with DLsite. I know some of you think they take too large of a cut from the developers. However, that is how publishing works.

Well you are right, publisher doing nothing wrong.
but that's why NA developers want a new market for their own.

You know the DLsite, only takes 50 - 15% of profits from developers when the developer is live-in-japan person. but if the developer lives outside japan, DLsite takes 75% - 40% of profits from developers.

For example, here's the 1548 yen doujin game. If the developer is Japanese, he gets 1024 yen as a profit. but the developer live outside of japan, he get (775 yen - money exchange&transfer cost)
this may sound nothing, but if you become a develope-no, you don't even need to be a dev. Just try multiply it by couple thousand then you will realize how huge this is.

1k copies from DLsite:
Live-in-Japan-Dev : 1024000 yen
Outside-Japan-Dev : about 770000 yen

Every time you sell 1k copies, you lose 254000 yen.
and that can be converted as $2,536 dollars.

That's enough money to hire someone for a month, or ordering couple outsource order, or full voice the game with it depends on the size of your game, or you can even live a month with it if you decide to use it for yourself.

So NA deverlopers have no choice but raise their game price(which is having HUGE disadvantage for selling) or give up on their profits.

Do you know why this happens?
Because we need a broker from DLsite. CF.

I don't against anything about DLsite or CF, They are good people. friendly.
but We need NA market really S:

A market can be direct contact without broker.

 

[Omnikuken]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

^ I'd presume english isn't your native language ? That was hard to read Goolge'd I'll also presume

Yes, I'm a big meanie

 

[BlueBurn]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

Well you are right, publisher doing nothing wrong.
but that's why NA developers want a new market for their own.

You know the DLsite, only takes 50 - 15% of profits from developers when the developer is live-in-japan person. but if the developer lives outside japan, DLsite takes 75% - 40% of profits from developers.

For example, here's the 1548 yen doujin game. If the developer is Japanese, he gets 1024 yen as a profit. but the developer live outside of japan, he get (775 yen - money exchange&transfer cost)
this may sound nothing, but if you become a develope-no, you don't even need to be a dev. Just try multiply it by couple thousand then you will realize how huge this is.

1k copies from DLsite:
Live-in-Japan-Dev : 1024000 yen
Outside-Japan-Dev : about 770000 yen

Every time you sell 1k copies, you lose 254000 yen.
and that can be converted as $2,536 dollars.

That's enough money to hire someone for a month, or ordering couple outsource order, or full voice the game with it depends on the size of your game, or you can even live a month with it if you decide to use it for yourself.

So NA deverlopers have no choice but raise their game price(which is having HUGE disadvantage for selling) or give up on their profits.

Do you know why this happens?
because of we need a broker from DLsite. CF.

I don't against anything about DLsite or CF, They are good people. friendly.
but We need NA market really S:

A market can be direct contact without broker.

I wasn't aware that non-JP devs lose a larger percentage. So then yeah I guess we do need our own publisher.

Still, the actual problem I was trying to point out was the unrealistic expectation for the publisher to take an even smaller cut than DLsite takes from JP devs. I remember in the thread announcing Kimochi that was mentioned. Well, if Kimochi had taken a larger cut, they may not have failed.

 

[habisain]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

Still, the actual problem I was trying to point out was the unrealistic expectation for the publisher to take an even smaller cut than DLsite takes from JP devs. I remember in the thread announcing Kimochi that was mentioned. Well, if Kimochi had taken a larger cut, they may not have failed.

I doubt it would have made a difference, frankly. I'd echo what has been said already, as well as the list of things I outlined earlier - but I think that Kimochi just made too many mistakes, and in the end that cost them. By their own account, they didn't anticipate they'd end up distributing a lot of free to distribute funded by Patreon games and that hurt them, and obviously taking a bigger cut of zero is still zero.

Perhaps the one upside is that if there's enough autopsying of Kimochi, someone in the future could put together an actually solid business plan.

 

[HentaiWriter]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

In my opinion, currently the most efficient way to grow the western market is to focus on translation because there are so many good Japanese H games and translating those is easier than developing something of similar quality.

what lol

that's like saying "the best way to grow jobs in America is to send everyone overseas and have people work for already established Japanese companies in Japan because that's easier than trying to get a job in America"

 

[BlueBurn]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

what lol

that's like saying "the best way to grow jobs in America is to send everyone overseas and have people work for already established Japanese companies in Japan because that's easier than trying to get a job in America"

Not really.

Look I'm not saying nobody should bother making games, or nobody should bother buying them. I'm just saying right now if one's goal is to grow this market, there is a lowest effort to highest impact way to do that, and it is translation.

If your goal is to make an H game knock yourself out. There's nothing wrong with that. If your goal is to grow interest in the genre? well.....

 

[AGamerPassingBy]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

Not really.

Look I'm not saying nobody should bother making games, or nobody should bother buying them. I'm just saying right now if one's goal is to grow this market, there is a lowest effort to highest impact way to do that, and it is translation.

If your goal is to make an H game knock yourself out. There's nothing wrong with that. If your goal is to grow interest in the genre? well.....

First of all i need to say that this kind of knowledge is not my repertoire, so please excuse me...

BlueBurn, i see that your understanding of 'Western Market' is slightly different with fellow Western Game Developers here like YummyTiger and HentaiWriter.
What i am feeling is that BlueBurn's definition of "Raising Western Game Market" is more in the lines of "Making more people buying games through Western Games Distribution so it can prosper", while YummyTiger and HentaiWriter's is more in the lines of "Making more people buying and creating Western Games so Western Game Distribution can prosper".

Frankly, i can't and don't have any rights to tell which of you is more 'right', because like i said, my knowledge about this is very shallow.
And please forgive me if i came to as rude , if so, none of it was intentional.

 

[erobotan]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

i kinda agree that translation is a faster choice.

the english eroge dev output is very low, DLSite & Steam has new games in daily basis. We english eroge devs probably can't even release new stuff in weekly basis.

In regard of which one is better, translation or making original game, I think we need to do both.

 

[HentaiWriter]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

Highly disagree about hentai struggling as far as exposure goes in the west, I mean, even THE OFFICE references it;

You must be registered to see the links

Searching "porn" on google brings up 358,000,000 results,
searching "pornography" on google brings up 68,100,000 results,
searching "hentai" on google brings up 75,100,000 results,
searching "eroge" on google brings up 881,000 results...

...but searching "h-game" brings up 448,000,000 results. (granted, google realizes that h-game = hentai, so it combines them, but even that should show how well known it is.)

10 years ago, I would have agreed with you, but MAINLY focusing on translations = the west is continued to be seen as "only good enough to convert pre-existing material, not to create new material", and focusing on translations isn't going to magically create people who will be skilled enough to produce solid games.

Additionally, I think saying that "there's no one in the west with enough talent to rival Japanese games" is ridiculous, when there's numerous games on Patreon that easily rival everything but the very cream of the crop Japanese games, and in almost all cases (yes, there are exceptions of course of 1 person teams etc.), those "cream of the crop" games are done with large teams with massive amounts of funding from prior games they've done.

Finally, yes, the English eroge output is very low, but quantity doesn't = quality; DLSite and Steam have new games on a daily basis, but it's not as if it's the same person putting out these games daily, of course.

Now, I'm not saying translation efforts are bad, of course; a lot of people want Japanese games translated and that's perfectly fine, and it's a solid skill that these people can actually use both for hentai and for SFW jobs, so it's a great skill to have and practice often. However... what if these people doing translations flipped it the other way around, and instead translated ENGLISH games for the JAPANESE market? (And, as a pretty solid bonus, most of the people who would get hired to translate ENG into JPN would be getting paid for their work, instead of doing translations for free.)

 

[habisain]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

I'd also chime in with the observation: Translation is a lot of work! Translating Japanese H-games may well be more work than developing our own!

At the same time HentaiWriter - hate to burst your bubble, but I would guess that most western translators aren't capable of doing a good Japanese translation (myself included). The number of people who can do a good translation into a language other than their mother tongue is vanishingly small, due to not having sufficient experience of the culture and literature.

 

[HentaiWriter]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

At the same time HentaiWriter - hate to burst your bubble, but I would guess that most western translators aren't capable of doing a good Japanese translation (myself included). The number of people who can do a good translation into a language other than their mother tongue is vanishingly small, due to not having sufficient experience of the culture and literature.

Oh, I'll definitely agree, but this just means that anyone who DOES put in the time and work to get skilled enough at it is going to have their choice of raking in the $$$ from the numerous western devs who are going to need their games translated.

I'm not saying someone should like, just start learning TODAY and expect to be able to do this as a career or anything, but there are people out there, and even on this board (a few I know of for sure) who are extremely skilled translators, but shy away from doing free work, etc.

 

[rtkamb]

Re: Kimochi shutting down

not to burst your bubble on the whole google search thing, but that dash is skewing your results. I don't know how it actually works to be honest, but I'm pretty sure you are searching for more than just "Hentai games" when you put in h-games, now "h-games"(with quotes) would give a better result, but that makes it too specific and would get rid of the "hentai game" keyword(s).