Patreon games dying off?

[Ninja_Named_Bob]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

On that note, can you give me a list of decent examples of games that were finished previous to the Patreon thing becoming popular? Breeding Season was dead, Nanocrisis and Eronya Action got dropped, Violated Heroine and Iris Action existed before and still aren't taking money. Unforbidden was not Patreon and hasn't been finished, Urielman had abandoned Mitsuko X for months, or even really old games like Tower of Change (chapter 2).

Before we get into a mud-slinger here, let's get a few things straight.

>Mitsuko X was not abandoned, but put on temporary hiatus. Urielman was given an opportunity to do a side project that would net him some free exposure and might have included money. That was it. He returned to work, but progress has been slow because like Ecogi and some others, his staff is 1-2 people putting one game together. Even Gabe (the dude/lady behind Queen Opala) takes a long time to produce content, albeit still releases a lot faster. I'll argue that unlike Ecogi and Urielman, he's working with a familiar engine and doesn't do his/her own art/animations.

>Iris Action was developed by a Japanese circle who probably had money, resources, and manpower to see the project through. Most western h-game devs don't have those luxuries. Even VH has that advantage over the guys you've listed.

>Dunno about those other games, but hypopics collective has a similar issue with devs starting a project and then it dying. Real life, poor project management, and even a lack of critical thought are all contributing factors to why a project usually dies. Patreon only facilitates the lack of foresight and replaces hard work with a quick buck for nothing. You forget about the thousands of LPer's and shit that make them youtube dollars and rarely follow through on projects or will regularly ostracize their own fanbase to generate a higher view count.

The point is, you're being EXTREMELY biased when saying that patreon has led to an increase in unfinished games. In fact, the majority of English H games have always been demos that people went and saw the two or three enemies with H-attacks and waited hopelessly as developers faded into nothing. Remember Claire's Quest? Mitsuko X still isn't finished. Unforbidden is gone.

Mitsuko X is still in developmental Hell because it's just 1 guy who has to manage everything including assets, VA's, sound design, level design, animations, etc. I rarely fall back on this (and would face-palm when someone uses it), but how about you go and build a game from the ground-up on your own without asking for a cent? Patreon exists to alleviate some of the stress and some developers get it in their head that it's an excuse to be a lazy fuck who produces little and demands a lot. Not pointing fingers, either, because I know groups like Ecogi and YummyTiger are working hard (and I'll even say azurezero has done great for being one guy working on all those games), but you forget that non-patreon games are still labors of love that most developers either lose their passion for or end up abandoning for good reasons. I think those people who will burn out eventually need to try developing a free game or two before asking for money; otherwise, it is a betrayal of trust and hurts those who do have every intention of finishing their project.

Alternatively, there's developers like Azurezero with plenty of finished games of shorter length, or BBBen having finished multiple PAC games and his Let Me In! (which I found a lot of fun). So we have multiple examples of all four categories. There are games that were finished before patreon, and games that remained unfinished before. Then we have games that are finished on the patreon model, and games that are unfinished.

You pull up a good point that there are examples of all four categories, but I'll also point out that Azurezero, BBBen, and others who use the same engine have the advantage of familiarity and a passion for something they enjoy. Not everyone has the passion or familiarity and it's worse still when they make promises they can't keep and then disappear completely. How many people funded a certain 3D version of Monmusu Quest and have yet to see their investment pay off? How many people contributed to Star Citizen and have seen little more than a tech demo? And these are just the well-known projects.

Your whole argument is based on a selective bias; watching Breeding Season (who are scum) and Hentaiwriter (who you seem to not like, and are still clearly releasing more and more of a finished product, regardless of if you agree with their speed) while attempting to ignore Yummytiger and Azurezero (who both prove your point wrong). I need to see an entirely different angle than the "Patreon has resulted in more unfinished games" before I agree with you.

Hentaiwriter is pretty cool peeps imho and despite mine and YT's "disagreement", I'll concede that they seem determined to push out that project regardless of if it kills them or not. I don't agree with the reasons people have given to fund them and while I don't know them or AZ, I'll probably put money towards purchase of the final product out of curiosity. I don't think you can say "selective bias" without admitting some on your own, though. Yes, those are examples, and yes, they are delivering; but there are plenty of others you're intentionally leaving out and choosing specific non-patreon developers to make your point. I'll point out Frank's Adventure, Fifi's Fury, Angel Girl, and that one high school dating sim with the futuristic chick you convince into thinking she's your cat. Suffice it to say, those are examples of finished games that weren't patreon-funded.

Side note, considering how we're used to getting half-completed H-game demos anyway, isn't this just as good as it would have been before? Previously we may get a demo and then wait forever in the hope of an update. Now we may get endless additions of scenes but never a sealed "finished product". For what we're after, it works out to the same thing. And those who want to spend money get to do so.

I don't think it works that way. If you mean to ask for money, you should have the intention of delivering the completed project instead of a half-baked cake with icing and sprinkles. I don't like dough-y, unfinished cake and covering it with icing and sprinkles only makes it worse, not better. I don't think we should be "used to" getting unfinished games and I don't see how "it happened then, it happens now except we're giving money to it!" is anything but flawed logic. That's like saying "I used to get kicked in the shins for free, but now I pay people to do it!".

 

[YummyTiger]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

I think thswherizat is spot on. I've been playing h-games for 20 years, and the indie h-game scene has ALWAYS been filled with unfinished games. People have high aspirations, but burn out when they discover just how much work is involved. I don't see how Patreon has made that worse, but I DO see developers interacting with people more and sticking with their projects longer.

Hentaiwriter is pretty cool peeps imho and despite mine and YT's "disagreement", I'll concede that they seem determined to push out that project regardless of if it kills them or not. I don't agree with the reasons people have given to fund them and while I don't know them or AZ, I'll probably put money towards purchase of the final product out of curiosity.

We had a disagreement? I don't recall, but I can be pigheaded at times.

I don't think it works that way. If you mean to ask for money, you should have the intention of delivering the completed project instead of a half-baked cake with icing and sprinkles. I don't like dough-y, unfinished cake and covering it with icing and sprinkles only makes it worse, not better. I don't think we should be "used to" getting unfinished games and I don't see how "it happened then, it happens now except we're giving money to it!" is anything but flawed logic. That's like saying "I used to get kicked in the shins for free, but now I pay people to do it!".

First, I can use my newly patented rebuttal of "don't fund those projects." Second, I've yet to see extremely poor game demos succeed on Patreon. Look at the Patreon list and you'll find A LOT of them stuck around around $300-$1000 a month.

Lastly, the one thing people seem to neglect is to mention just how much interaction Patreon has brought between developer and the community. I love the comments and suggestions I receive on Patreon, and I feel like I know many of the people pledging to my foolish endeavor. thswherizat, CrazyWarlock, Denpa, Balduindrake, Insanebrain, Pseudo, and so many others have been with me through all the hurdles of the development phase (and there have been a ton). I can tell you, I NEVER considered dropping the project with them behind me. For me, the money will be nice and allow me to work full time, but it is not the primary reason I do this. I have a full time job that pays well, and could easily continue that path, but this is my passion. That is why I defend it so strongly, as it has allowed me to work on h-games in a way that going the complete game sale route never would have.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Given the change to how numbers are displayed, we don't know.

It seems like the OP is concerned that the viability of developing H games is in jeopardy due to abusers giving Patreon a bad name.

I don't believe that is the case. Indie devs have been developing H games for a few years now and I don't believe we've seen an increase to completed games, or to the general quality of games with the new Patreon trend.

Take Fenoxo for example. CoC was developed without Patreon support. It's a great game. TiTS is great too and while he has chosen to use Patreon to support it, it's not clear if that can be credited to the quality or success of TiTS. I believe he would have developed it with or without Patreon.

So I don't see a reason to be concerned.

I also like to think that way. I know some creators that use patreon ask for the money so they can spend more time working, but I dunno, I supported 2 or 3 projects since like last year, and when I think back, damn, I spent a lot of money lol, even if it was 5 bucks per month. I could've picked full games with that money. I'm not saying full games or AAA titles are bug/glitch proof or anything, but I just get the "whole content" at once. (Assuming they don't go with that DLC bull, but I most of the times avoid games like that). Its hard not to think about it especially when you take into consideration examples like Fenoxo. CoC has a lot of content and it didn't even need to ask for support. Another developer that I like to take into consideration when it comes to this is ConcernedApe from Stardew Valley, he/she refused to take money from donations and such even if people wanted to give it because he/she wanted to develop it at his/her own pace. The game took 5 years or more to be completed but its close to be completed now, and it looks just amazing. (He/she is also developing the game alone). I know we aren't forced to pay, and we kind of agreed with the risks when we decided patron them, I'm just saying why I quit supporting people on Patreon.

Also, a quick edit: Sorry for anything you guys have trouble understanding, I'm not native english.

 

[thswherizat]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

>Mitsuko X was not abandoned, but put on temporary hiatus. Urielman was given an opportunity to do a side project that would net him some free exposure and might have included money.

I don't think you can say "selective bias" without admitting some on your own, though. Yes, those are examples, and yes, they are delivering; but there are plenty of others you're intentionally leaving out and choosing specific non-patreon developers to make your point. I'll point out Frank's Adventure, Fifi's Fury, Angel Girl, and that one high school dating sim with the futuristic chick you convince into thinking she's your cat. Suffice it to say, those are examples of finished games that weren't patreon-funded.

My bias is that I believe we've seen little difference in the amount of finished games in ratio to "demos" as we've always seen from H-developers. Providing examples of finished games doesn't make this a weaker argument unless you can prove to me that the ratio used to be significantly better than it is now. And for every Angel Girl we have a Magical Girl, for every Frank's Adventure there was a Legend of Kai that never got past the very clunky alpha. If I had a selective bias here, I would have to be leaving out a massive amount of finished English h-games we saw in past years, and I'm either blind or I don't think that exists.

I don't think it works that way. If you mean to ask for money, you should have the intention of delivering the completed project instead of a half-baked cake with icing and sprinkles. I don't like dough-y, unfinished cake and covering it with icing and sprinkles only makes it worse, not better. I don't think we should be "used to" getting unfinished games and I don't see how "it happened then, it happens now except we're giving money to it!" is anything but flawed logic. That's like saying "I used to get kicked in the shins for free, but now I pay people to do it!".

You're equating something you would never like (kicked in the shins) with something you do like (h-games, even unfinished) and then illogically adding that you are now somehow forced to pay for it?

It's more like this. "I used to get small samples, and now I can get samples and pay for other samples!" What the public h-game audience has always gotten was unfinished demos and burnt-out developers, and now we're getting that with a few more professional companies stepping onboard with the promise of actual funding. Contrary to your point, I actually see patreon as only possibly giving us better results than we used to get. Freeko and some others seem to get this idea that what would have previously been all free content and full releases is now pay-gated and drawn out for the money. I believe that we likely wouldn't have had many of these games at all. So if I get a free sample and a patreon ad (which I in no way am forced to spend money on) or no free sample, I can put up with the ad.

I love the comments and suggestions I receive on Patreon, and I feel like I know many of the people pledging to my foolish endeavor. thswherizat, CrazyWarlock, Denpa, Balduindrake, Insanebrain, Pseudo, and so many others have been with me through all the hurdles of the development phase (and there have been a ton). I can tell you, I NEVER considered dropping the project with them behind me.

This also happens to be literally the only patreon I have a pledge in. I think the patreon system can be horribly abused (a la Breeding Season) or can give an aspiring developer the encouragement to follow his project idea. In that regard, being able to put my bit of money on the table and say "HEY I THINK THIS" is a lot different than being one of the many voices in a forum hollering my input.

 

[bluewr]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

See thats the whole problem with patreon that i have. Not a single game that i see here on ulmf that is patreon funded has been or likely ever will be finished. Alot of people are jumping on the me too bandwagon because they get money for nothing in a sense. So long as they keep the ruse alive that they are making progress...

Anthophobia was funded through patreon, and was completed, is being sold on dlsite and other site.
and is getting 2 expansion pack coming through patreon funding and a sequel.
So your arguement is moot.

Official dev blog(Monthly update)

You must be registered to see the links

Patreon page(Weekly update, and WIP demo with patreon of $15)

You must be registered to see the links

Lewdgamer review

You must be registered to see the links

ULMF page
http://www.ulmf.org/bbs/showthread.php?t=27342

ENG dlsite page(224 sale)<4.76/5 rating by buyer>

You must be registered to see the links

Jp Dlsite(1262 sale)<4.67/5 out of 528 star rating, and 8 written review>

You must be registered to see the links

It's simple, it's your money, and other people money is their money, what they do with it, is none of your business, if you don't like it, don't fund it.

 

[erobotan]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

It's 3 pages already and no one mention my patreon games? so sad

 

[nightshad]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

It's 3 pages already and no one mention my patreon games? so sad

your sig's adorable xD

Anthophobia was funded through patreon, and was completed, is being sold on dlsite and other site.
and is getting 2 expansion pack coming through patreon funding and a sequel.
So your arguement is moot.

Official dev blog(Monthly update)

You must be registered to see the links

Patreon page(Weekly update, and WIP demo with patreon of $15)

You must be registered to see the links

Lewdgamer review

You must be registered to see the links

ULMF page
http://www.ulmf.org/bbs/showthread.php?t=27342

ENG dlsite page(224 sale)<4.76/5 rating by buyer>

You must be registered to see the links

Jp Dlsite(1262 sale)<4.67/5 out of 528 star rating, and 8 written review>

You must be registered to see the links

It's simple, it's your money, and other people money is their money, what they do with it, is none of your business, if you don't like it, don't fund it.

Are we paying for previews or are we paying for content. knowing what my money and other's is being used for. isn't that our buisness if we donate money to a dev D: they can give us previews and screen shots of what he doing and working on. hundreds of ss, but if we never see any of it in game. then were just paying for screen shots not content. how is that not our business how our money is being used??

if Mils of dollars people give to a congress person to support him/her and they take the money and go on vocation and what not instead of putting the money into help build schools and hospitals and other important things that they promised to do. They can legally be held accountable! its fraud dude. so whats the difference between that and dev on patreon suddenly disappears after getting so much money? fraud still fraud man. sorry but i dont see a difference. payed for services that you did not receive is fraud.

what so hard to understand

i dontate 1000$ to a dev. he takes the 1000$ and buys a new tv or computer right instead of making the game? then suddenly decrees. no refund and closes the project down. can i not take him to court for fraud? i payed 1000$ for new content and he buys a new computer instead and closes the project without releasing anything other then a FB page with a brand new computer. what kind of protection does the site offer with that amount of money being invested? cant be he held legally responsible?

what if i do want to support the dev cause i really like the game there making and they take the money and run. look i got no issue supporting artists like myself. but i need some sort of protection or reassurance im getting what i paid for. especially if the donation is 100s of $? if it was 5$ the guy bails. i wouldn't care that much but come on. guy takes 1000$ and bails. that would piss anyone off.

i ask again. does Patreon have some legal responsibility to protect donators on the site from fraud and how do they reimburse the money if the dev bails.

 

[Pykrete Blue]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Considering OP's first topic was 'donate to my patreon' with nothing on it and no information, I'm surprised this thread has so many responses.

 

[dragoon93041]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Well Paetron is new and exciting so people are going to want to talk about it.

 

[bluewr]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

your sig's adorable xD



Are we paying for previews or are we paying for content. knowing what my money and other's is being used for. isn't that our buisness if we donate money to a dev D: they can give us previews and screen shots of what he doing and working on. hundreds of ss, but if we never see any of it in game. then were just paying for screen shots not content. how is that not our business how our money is being used??

if Mils of dollars people give to a congress person to support him/her and they take the money and go on vocation and what not instead of putting the money into help build schools and hospitals and other important things that they promised to do. They can legally be held accountable! its fraud dude. so whats the difference between that and dev on patreon suddenly disappears after getting so much money? fraud still fraud man. sorry but i dont see a difference. payed for services that you did not receive is fraud.

what so hard to understand

i dontate 1000$ to a dev. he takes the 1000$ and buys a new tv or computer right instead of making the game? then suddenly decrees. no refund and closes the project down. can i not take him to court for fraud? i payed 1000$ for new content and he buys a new computer instead and closes the project without releasing anything other then a FB page with a brand new computer. what kind of protection does the site offer with that amount of money being invested? cant be he held legally responsible?

what if i do want to support the dev cause i really like the game there making and they take the money and run. look i got no issue supporting artists like myself. but i need some sort of protection or reassurance im getting what i paid for. especially if the donation is 100s of $? if it was 5$ the guy bails. i wouldn't care that much but come on. guy takes 1000$ and bails. that would piss anyone off.

i ask again. does Patreon have some legal responsibility to protect donators on the site from fraud and how do they reimburse the money if the dev bails.

No, patreon don't have any legal responsibility, same with kickstarter.
You really don't understand how it work.

If you're giving 1000 to someone based on their word, you have bigger issue.
Since patreon and kickstarter themself have been pretty clear on how it works.

It's simple, if you don't like it, don't put money in it.
If you do, and it fails, you can sue them, but whether you'll be successful or not, that's up tot he court, and I doubt that it'll be worth your time to sue for a 10~50 dollar pledge in court.

 

[Scherzo]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Are we paying for previews or are we paying for content...
how is that not our business how our money is being used??
...
payed for services that you did not receive is fraud.

what so hard to understand

i dontate 1000$ to a dev. he takes the 1000$ and buys a new tv or computer right instead of making the game? then suddenly decrees. no refund and closes the project down. can i not take him to court for fraud?
...

what if i do want to support the dev cause i really like the game there making and they take the money and run.
i ask again. does Patreon have some legal responsibility to protect donators on the site from fraud and how do they reimburse the money if the dev bails.

I shortened your post to express the core sentiment of your point to shorten this post a little bit.

But basically, you seem to be under the same core fallacy as many people who have issues with patreon, and I would like to actually start off by saying you're totally right about the problem of "hit and run" artists, but here's the thing:

You are NOT paying for a product or service and are basically entitled to nothing. (Perks throws a wrench into this, so I'll set that aside for a moment and get back to that in the end)

By donating, you're basically just saying "I really like your work, keep it up! Here's some cash to do whatever you'd like" the artist buying a TV or going on vacation is TOTALLY a valid use of your donation, legally and contractually speaking.

The CORE purpose of patreon is to give artists money to pay their bills or buy themselves nice things they wouldn't be able to afford while they spend their time on artwork that would otherwise be be unprofitable. This works fucking great for people who publish free webcomics, do weekly youtube shows or podcasts, or other ungoing things with regular updates, especially things that have minimal costs other than time to thier producers. (meaning they have to funnel very few patreon funds back into the project) If you donate to a free webcomic creator, there is no reason to be upset when they buy themselves a TV since they're still keeping up on their comic.

This gets really messy when it comes to big ongoing projects like games. Honestly, the kickstarter model is a much better solution because it IS designed to fund large projects, rather than fund people like Patreon is designed to do. Honestly, using Patreon for funding game dev is kind of a loophole workaround on how it's actually designed to work. The only reason people do it, is because Patreon is the easiest to use service that allows adult projects. That's it. Non-H game devs can use kickstarter or indiegogo. H-devs can't. Their only other viable option is Offbeatr, and they take around 30% of your funds off the top, which is crazy high.

Back to perks, people don't really understand how they should work and artists are misusing them too. given that Patreon is supposed to be an ongoing subscription thing, perk rewards should also be an ongoing thing. Like early access to content, getting to make votes on upcoming content, etc. Stuff that is one-time and typical of kickstarter perks "Get a copy of the finished thing" or "Design one boss for the game" are a sign that the creator really should have a Kickstarter instead, but as I explained, they can't.

Basically, you're right. Many of these game Patreons are pretty much a misuse of Patreon's intended system, but it's pretty much the only usable method for many creators. Pushing Patreon to have more hard protections against "fraud" is actually going to likely convince them to close the loopholes in the first place and get adult projects kicked off the site completely. High rates or chargebacks and such are the justification services like paypal use for thier otherwise 'moral' anti-adult policy. If they can't just sweep those issues under the rug, most companies would rather walk away completely than become the third party in a legal debate. It's much, much easier to just say "It's a donation, buyer beware." Especially given that that aproach suits patreon's intended mission much better. It's SUPPOSED to be one-sided in the artist's favor. That's what makes Patreon different from kickstarter in the first place.

 

[blightspawn]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

-snip

Yeah, that was spot on.

I find it rather funny that some people think once they donated, they become shareholders.

To those against the subscription/donation model, again, in the end, it's not YOUR project or YOUR money. The backlash to this kind of system is VERY REAL for creators AND patrons. Yet you're the one mad at a system you are not ever involved at?

You have to grasp the idea that there's a lot of people out there who are complete adults who will probably spend their money at something YOU DO NOT LIKE AS WELL anyway. So why not tell them to stop buying those steam sale games they are not gonna play anyway? or that expensive coffee brand? or that new overpriced iGadget? Again, stop being the embodiment of "Stop liking what I don't like!"

I was just checking the patreon pages for breeding season, malise and the machine and crisis point, and their pledges seem to be steadily reducing. Are these just a few isolated cases, or a trend? I'm hoping patreon continues to be a viable model to support developers. The amount of english H games currently in development (hell) makes me giddy, but some of these guys sure are taking their sweet time.

I'm afraid that a few dishonest/lazy developers are going to ruin patreon for a decent chunk of people, and that good developers are going to suffer for it. What do you think?

Since everyone explained the sudden amount drop, you have to also understand that making a game is hard, heck, my campaign will just get to it's first month tomorrow, so I am very new with this model, but definitely not new to developing games. depending on the quality and content, games take months to years to complete considering it's also indie and are probably done by 1-4 people.

How long has Breeding Season been developing the game anyway? You guys need to understand that every time a new feature is introduced to game development, it will eat extra time to implement. The bigger the project gets, the harder the features are to coexist with the current state you've built the game with. Not to mention the amount of time needed to test everything and god.... the bugs. If you guys have never developed games before, it's quite a pain in the ass.

Don't get me wrong, tho, as personally, with Breeding Season's budget, it's already mid-tier game dev team budget.
Whatever they are doing right now with their campaign is not mine or any non-patron's concern.
I do see Breeding Season a lot in the "past pledges" indo from my new patrons, so it means people are aware and are doing something about their budget.

For now, let the creators create. Developing games take a lot of time.
In the end, the games will be finished and patrons will support those who stay afloat and abandon those who keep empty promises. Or not. Who cares? it's crowd funded. don't worry much about it! Just ready your fap-gauntlet when games get finished.

 

[mayaktheunholy]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Their only other viable option is Offbeatr, and they take around 30% of your funds off the top, which is crazy high.

Would also like to point out they are restrictive on content. No "bestiality" for example. And their definition of such is pretty broad. Patreon has no such restrictions.

I find it rather funny that some people think once they donated, they become shareholders.

This. You're funding an artist directly, not buying a product. (despite how some artists/devs use the system)

And well said to the rest of your post, you brought up most of what I was going to say. People really expect devs to shit out a complete game in a month, they have no idea how long it takes. And that pic is very appropriate.

Only thing I'd like to add to this discussion is that all the detractors seem to think H-game devs hate making games and will try to find any excuse to do something else with their time/money while being "paid" to "do a job". This couldn't be farther from the truth in many cases, most of us actually enjoy what we do. I would get back to it if I could (and my shit wasn't making money anyway). The idea for most of us is just to have enough to not need a 40 hour a week job so we have time to devote to game development. Doing it while working is not practical, I've tried. (unless you want just another half-assed copy paste CG hunt RPGmaker game like 99% of what you see on DLsite)

 

[raska42]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Honestly, I think the problem comes down to pandering. I'll use Breeding Season as an example since it's one of the more cut and dry ones, and it's one that I'm familiar with. It started off solidly, the patreon amounts ended up getting pretty high, and then they started offering the higher funders input in the game. The higher funders there were heavily interested in futanari and the game had several multi-month stretches where the only updates and the posted progress was pretty much only futanari stuff. I can understand trying to give a bonus to the people that donate $100+ a month, but they've been doing that at the cost of actual development. Most patreon games ultimately suffer from this (there are exceptions though). In BS's case, I know they lost a lot of people due to that (myself included). If they annoy 20-50 $10 funders per 1 $100 funder pandered to, they're gonna lose out. It's basic math.

Edit: it looks like BS has changed it's patreon options now, and no longer does that, but it pissed off a lot of people before they did.

 

[Cartoon Smut]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

sneep

can't wait for your fucking game dudeee

 

[dragoon93041]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Maybe the Steam-for-h-games thing could incorporate it a kind of Kickstarter for h-games.

 

[freeko]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Well if there was any reason to actually release it, in that the money made from selling the game were conisderable compared to the money being taken in without releasing it... You get where I am going with it by now right?

I dont care what stance "you" take on how you want to justify the patreon pay per month system, I will never buy into that being the correct way of doing things. If a game were meant to be sold and money to be made from sales, then I do not see why patreon should even be part of the equation. If you have to work a real job like I do and cannot find the time to put into making games on the side, then you really should not be working on games at all I would think. Full time or part time for that matter.

The way I see it is this, it is just a different way to dress the whole pig where you pay per month to play games, ala that barbarian babes site for example. they do not want to sell the games because then they lose the lions share of their money coming in. I bet there is a decent level of indifference to people who pledge as well thinking that if they do not continue to pledge that they will lose out on the money they had previously put in. Bernie Madhoff (I doubt I spelled that right) would be proud of patreon because it is a legal (for now) method to pull the same scams he did.

Lets take future fragments for example. What happens if the rug gets pulled out from under them and their backers got sick of all the reworks, circle jerks, and delays. How could they continue to make that game when they lose the very money that they are living off of so that they can make the game? This is where I think alot of people fail to see the gigantic elephant in the room. Once the funding gets pulled on a game like this, there is no possible way that development would continue and the people who got in early will be left out in the cold wondering where their game went that they bought and paid for.

That there is a supposed money back guarantee is preposterous at best with this game as well. What happens when the game does not live up to all the hype around it and people realize its just a bad kurovadis? Should they ask for their money back?

Now yes, I am using that as a very direct example. I feel that alot of the games could be easily substituted into that very frame and the sacred cash cow gets exposed. The product simply does not exist without the money being given every month. So why again would anyone actually finish a project when it means they lose out on the very thing that is keeping their livelyhood the way it is?

That is why patreon fails to serve its purpose. The platform is flawed or being corrupted to a purpose that it should not be used for. The backlash may take a few years to fully manifest itself as more and more projects become vaporware and patreon has no way to assist the people who had put their money forward into these sunken ships. They are just a go between and all they need to say is "buyer beware" for the most part and they indemnify themselves of any liability.

 

[mayaktheunholy]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

I dont care what stance "you" take on how you want to justify the patreon pay per month system, I will never buy into that being the correct way of doing things. If a game were meant to be sold and money to be made from sales, then I do not see why patreon should even be part of the equation. If you have to work a real job like I do and cannot find the time to put into making games on the side, then you really should not be working on games at all I would think. Full time or part time for that matter.

Can't speak for others, but my idea was to make the game free and people could just pay whatever they want, whenever they want through Patreon. And to reward them, I would do some exclusive animations here and there.

So why again would anyone actually finish a project when it means they lose out on the very thing that is keeping their livelyhood the way it is?

Again I can't speak for everyone, but some of us enjoy doing this and would continue to make games. The way you are looking at it is very short-sighted. If you wanted to continue to make money with this system the idea would be to keep making games, not to use it for one project and be done with it.

 

[freeko]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Again I can't speak for everyone, but some of us enjoy doing this and would continue to make games. The way you are looking at it is very short-sighted. If you wanted to continue to make money with this system the idea would be to keep making games, not to use it for one project and be done with it.

I could see that as a valid example. If it were a design studio that were being supported instead of a specific game, which most of these seem to be currently, then I would look at it somewhat differently. I would not go so far as to think that it was the right way to do things at any point ever, but I could see things like a kickstarter setup being more viable than this pay per month shell game. I did put my money into Shenmue 3 on the kickstarter. $29 I think it was to make sure I got a copy of the game when it gets finished. No bullshit about paying to get the latest demos, just give me the fucking game when it is done and thats it.

Want to name the main character? How about a few characters on the side? How about the boss? Sure, a kickstarter like setup where people paid to have input on the game seems like it could make sense. Those are all one time things though and not one that could or ever should be continued past their once off nature.

(The following is a theoretical example, and may or may not be true in any way shape or form.)
Here is a hint though:

Spoiler

Lets say I have a concept for a game. I have I would say half of the game already done in bits here and fragments there. I have 19 characters that could be named, The principal, the boss, the MC, the referee and 15 other minor characters. I could expand into more lesser characters if need be. So lets say I wanted to monetize the game and garner a level of interest.

Should I put up a patreon to string people along for as long as possible to maximize the money I make while not releasing the game?

I personally think that is obviously wrong.

 

[mayaktheunholy]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

I could see that as a valid example. If it were a design studio that were being supported instead of a specific game, which most of these seem to be currently, then I would look at it somewhat differently. I would not go so far as to think that it was the right way to do things at any point ever, but I could see things like a kickstarter setup being more viable than this pay per month shell game. I did put my money into Shenmue 3 on the kickstarter. $29 I think it was to make sure I got a copy of the game when it gets finished. No bullshit about paying to get the latest demos, just give me the fucking game when it is done and thats it.

Yeah, it does seem like many devs have it set up so it appears to be funding just the one project they are working on and not being clear that they intend to keep making content long after the game is completed. This is still a fairly new concept though, and some devs are indeed abusing it and/or using it in ways it was not intended, and some will make mistakes at first (like the aforementioned bloat/feature creep from rewards). Many are trying to set it up the way one would a Kickstarter (with their rewards and whatnot) and that's really not what it is meant to be. But then again there are no real alternatives. One could use Offbeatr, but only for fairly "vanilla" projects, and as mentioned they take a large cut.