Patreon games dying off?

[bluewr]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Well if there was any reason to actually release it, in that the money made from selling the game were conisderable compared to the money being taken in without releasing it... You get where I am going with it by now right?

I dont care what stance "you" take on how you want to justify the patreon pay per month system, I will never buy into that being the correct way of doing things. If a game were meant to be sold and money to be made from sales, then I do not see why patreon should even be part of the equation. If you have to work a real job like I do and cannot find the time to put into making games on the side, then you really should not be working on games at all I would think. Full time or part time for that matter.

The way I see it is this, it is just a different way to dress the whole pig where you pay per month to play games, ala that barbarian babes site for example. they do not want to sell the games because then they lose the lions share of their money coming in. I bet there is a decent level of indifference to people who pledge as well thinking that if they do not continue to pledge that they will lose out on the money they had previously put in. Bernie Madhoff (I doubt I spelled that right) would be proud of patreon because it is a legal (for now) method to pull the same scams he did.

Lets take future fragments for example. What happens if the rug gets pulled out from under them and their backers got sick of all the reworks, circle jerks, and delays. How could they continue to make that game when they lose the very money that they are living off of so that they can make the game? This is where I think alot of people fail to see the gigantic elephant in the room. Once the funding gets pulled on a game like this, there is no possible way that development would continue and the people who got in early will be left out in the cold wondering where their game went that they bought and paid for.

That there is a supposed money back guarantee is preposterous at best with this game as well. What happens when the game does not live up to all the hype around it and people realize its just a bad kurovadis? Should they ask for their money back?

Now yes, I am using that as a very direct example. I feel that alot of the games could be easily substituted into that very frame and the sacred cash cow gets exposed. The product simply does not exist without the money being given every month. So why again would anyone actually finish a project when it means they lose out on the very thing that is keeping their livelyhood the way it is?

That is why patreon fails to serve its purpose. The platform is flawed or being corrupted to a purpose that it should not be used for. The backlash may take a few years to fully manifest itself as more and more projects become vaporware and patreon has no way to assist the people who had put their money forward into these sunken ships. They are just a go between and all they need to say is "buyer beware" for the most part and they indemnify themselves of any liability.

Your opinion and not one that seems to be shared by developer or patreons(Not just adult games)

You keep on talking about what if, and yet there are examples that worked listed by patreons and other developer that you ignore.

And you're ignoring the bigger elephant in the room, without patreon, there won't be all these games, more would be vaperware, or incomplete similiar to VH RPG, since they won't have the time or energy to work on it, due to something call real life.

 

[BlueBurn]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

And you're ignoring the bigger elephant in the room, without patreon, there won't be all these games, more would be vaperware, or incomplete similiar to VH RPG, since they won't have the time or energy to work on it, due to something call real life.

I addressed this in my post earlier but I don't think I got it across very well. This seems to be the main concern of the OP of this thread.

I really disagree with this. We have not seen an increase to completed games yet. Maybe we will, but it hasn't happened yet.

I used Fenoxo as an example because he made a basically complete game (CoC) without Patreon already, and then he decided to use Patreon for his next game. To me that means he would make games regardless of Patreon being a thing or not.

I followed quite a few indie H games before Patreon was around. What I noticed was that when devs dropped their projects it was because they lost interest. I don't see those particular devs coming back and trying again with Patreon. They aren't interested, that's the deciding factor.

Now some of the devs who were around then are still around, and some of them have started using Patreon. I haven't noticed a change in quality or production speed from those devs.

I do not think Patreon is the lifeblood of indie H game development. We have no evidence that it has been beneficial. The situation has not changed in terms of the quality of games available.

The point is, don't worry. If the Patreon trend dies, nothing will change.

 

[AltairPL]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Well if there was any reason to actually release it, in that the money made from selling the game were conisderable compared to the money being taken in without releasing it... You get where I am going with it by now right?

Problem is that this is your opinion, but you're presenting it as a general truth applicable to every patreon creator there is, which in most cases is not only hurtful but downward insulting. It seems you can't grasp that whenever money is involved, there's a room for corruption, scams, etc., but that doesn't automatically mean that every politician is corrupted (yeah, I know, it's debatable, but it's only example), policeman on the take, patreon creator a scammer, and so on.

I dont care what stance "you" take on how you want to justify the patreon pay per month system, I will never buy into that being the correct way of doing things. If a game were meant to be sold and money to be made from sales, then I do not see why patreon should even be part of the equation. If you have to work a real job like I do and cannot find the time to put into making games on the side, then you really should not be working on games at all I would think. Full time or part time for that matter.

Correct way of doing things is one that works for both creator and potential customers - if you think otherwise, that's your problem. Patreon became part of equation, because development of adult games in western part of the world is less profitable than in Japan and that's the main reason why there's high demand and low supply of English adult only games. I had a real job, and let me tell you, finding time and strength to work on a game after 8-10 hours of work is not easy, and it's not really your place to tell me (or anyone else for that matter) what I should or shouldn't do.

The way I see it is this, it is just a different way to dress the whole pig where you pay per month to play games, ala that barbarian babes site for example. they do not want to sell the games because then they lose the lions share of their money coming in. I bet there is a decent level of indifference to people who pledge as well thinking that if they do not continue to pledge that they will lose out on the money they had previously put in. Bernie Madhoff (I doubt I spelled that right) would be proud of patreon because it is a legal (for now) method to pull the same scams he did.

No, it's not "just a different way to dress the whole pig" as you say, though the reason for it, which I mentioned earlier, is the same. If you weren't as biased against patreon as you are, you would see that patreon is more fair in that regard, since you don't have to pledge a cent and play the game whenever you wish when it gets out.

Lets take future fragments for example. What happens if the rug gets pulled out from under them and their backers got sick of all the reworks, circle jerks, and delays. How could they continue to make that game when they lose the very money that they are living off of so that they can make the game? This is where I think alot of people fail to see the gigantic elephant in the room. Once the funding gets pulled on a game like this, there is no possible way that development would continue and the people who got in early will be left out in the cold wondering where their game went that they bought and paid for.

That there is a supposed money back guarantee is preposterous at best with this game as well. What happens when the game does not live up to all the hype around it and people realize its just a bad kurovadis? Should they ask for their money back?

Now yes, I am using that as a very direct example. I feel that alot of the games could be easily substituted into that very frame and the sacred cash cow gets exposed. The product simply does not exist without the money being given every month. So why again would anyone actually finish a project when it means they lose out on the very thing that is keeping their livelyhood the way it is?

Apparently you also fail to see something - if any patreon creator fails to deliver, he not only looses financial support, but also reputation, which is much more important, up to the point where nobody will ever trust him again - no matter if it's another crowdfunding campaign or finished product. Try to think like creator for a moment and you will see that delivering on promises is much more profitable on the long run than trying to milk patrons during one campaign. Sure, there are creators who abuse and take advantage of the situation, but it doesn't mean that everyone is doing this.

That is why patreon fails to serve its purpose. The platform is flawed or being corrupted to a purpose that it should not be used for. The backlash may take a few years to fully manifest itself as more and more projects become vaporware and patreon has no way to assist the people who had put their money forward into these sunken ships. They are just a go between and all they need to say is "buyer beware" for the most part and they indemnify themselves of any liability.

It fails to serve its purpose, but only as you see it... from patreon's

You must be registered to see the links

: "We want to help every creator in the world achieve sustainable income." - see... their purpose is entirely different than you think. Yes, it can be used as a tool for scams, etc. but it doesn't mean that it is for every creator. If you are afraid of being scummed, just don't pledge and patiently wait for final game release - yes, it's that easy. And if you still think that patreon makes creators lazy and games would be produced much faster without it, keep in mind that a lot of those projects would not be even started without patreon or other financial support. I'll hold you to your word and we'll compare patreon based vaporware and released games in a few years.

 

[HentaiWriter]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

I'm honestly just sitting here facepalming about being compared to Bernie Madoff somehow as well as comparing all Patreon creators to that.

Honestly also facepalming at calliny Future Fragments a "bad kurovadis".

Why is Freeko not banned yet, again? All he ever does in the H-Games forum is complain about Patreon and indie game devs with a sea of hypocrisy and exaggerations, as well as (in this thread) people who cant afford to do a full time or part time job and work on a game at the same time (despite the latter also being a job) shouldnt be making games at all, which would be idiotic.

By that logic, a lot of stuff in the world wouldnt exist today.

Honestly, most of Freeko's behavior towards Patreon and the above boils down to, AFAIK, him making his own game (twice, i believe), getting almost no support for it, screwing over other people in the process, and so forth. After that, he feels bitter towards other people finding success with THEIR games, and his reasoning is that if THEY find success, and HE didn't then it must be something shady or scamming going on.

That's just what I've been told though, but it would certainly fit the bill.

Also, AltairPL, great post, agree with all of that. Most of us genuinely enjoy making games.
If we were in it for the profit, there are a LOT more profitable fields most of us could be going into than indie game dev. A lot more secure ones, too.

As far as if Future Fragments will dry up if everyone on Patreon stopped pledging, no, at this point, it has significant enough attention from certain groups and people that would be able to basically pay for a majority of the game development if that were ever to happen...

...but in doing so they would basically own the game, which means we lose creative control as well as where it gets distributed and how it does, not to mention the overall quality would likely be much lower as it would be rushed to be completed without care for quality.

But yes, the game would come out and it would be completed. However, given that the vast majority of human beings are capable of rational thought and not heavilu biased like Freeko is, i'm fairly sure 700 people (most of whom have pledged quite a while) are not going to have an immediate change of heart. As said many times before too, we aren't sitting around doing nothing; we are constantly working on the game. We and most other h devs are not out to scam people.

(I also like how Freeko ignored that selling your game would bring ten times the profits of a full year of patreon support, hence you would want to complete it even if you were just in it for the money, but that is obviously a lie and a scam too, cause anyone with success MUST be a scammer!)

 

[Indivi]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

I'll +1 to AltairPL's post. freeko, you're entitled to your opinions of course, but at the end of the day, how other people spend their money is entirely their business. Maybe you're right in that some developers prolong their development cycle to retain continued funding, but considering your stance on the matter, I doubt you'd want to support those developers anyways if patreon stops being viable. Blaming the platform itself for their ways is mis-focused, and also drags down developers that aren't abusing the platform, who whether you believe it or not, do exist and dare I say, might even outnumber the scam artists?

 

[bluewr]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

I addressed this in my post earlier but I don't think I got it across very well. This seems to be the main concern of the OP of this thread.

I really disagree with this. We have not seen an increase to completed games yet. Maybe we will, but it hasn't happened yet.

I used Fenoxo as an example because he made a basically complete game (CoC) without Patreon already, and then he decided to use Patreon for his next game. To me that means he would make games regardless of Patreon being a thing or not.

I followed quite a few indie H games before Patreon was around. What I noticed was that when devs dropped their projects it was because they lost interest. I don't see those particular devs coming back and trying again with Patreon. They aren't interested, that's the deciding factor.

Now some of the devs who were around then are still around, and some of them have started using Patreon. I haven't noticed a change in quality or production speed from those devs.

I do not think Patreon is the lifeblood of indie H game development. We have no evidence that it has been beneficial. The situation has not changed in terms of the quality of games available.

The point is, don't worry. If the Patreon trend dies, nothing will change.

You're not Fexeno, so you can't say what he/she will do.
But the fact that they are using it, most likely mean they need it, why don't you send them a email and ask them, instead of speculating based on your own uninformed opnion?
If they see it as viable, and there are people paying, that is their business with their own money, none of your concern on how they spend it.

 

[Cartoon Smut]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Why is Freeko not banned yet, again?

freeze peach

 

[mayaktheunholy]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Now some of the devs who were around then are still around, and some of them have started using Patreon. I haven't noticed a change in quality or production speed from those devs.

So while quality may not have increased, it hasn't made them slow down significantly or stop production either. But it may have enabled them to continue when otherwise they would not.

I do not think Patreon is the lifeblood of indie H game development. We have no evidence that it has been beneficial. The situation has not changed in terms of the quality of games available.

If quality is the same but quantity has gone up (and it most certainly has), then I would call that beneficial.

 

[meh65]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

I don't see any reduction, only growth.

Compared to a year or so ago, western H games/artists are starting to thrive on patreon.

Only ones who die off are the ones not updating at least monthly.

 

[YummyTiger]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Hey Freeko, as I said earlier, I can literally rebut EVERY argument you make with, "Don't pledge to Patreon." There, problem solved. You can stop your illogical crusade against Patreon.

Actually, whenever I see you post, I'm constantly reminded of Will Smith's quote in The Pursuit of Happiness. He told his kid to "Hold onto your dreams and never let them go." That people who can't will constantly strive to bring you down, out of jealousy or spite.

You ramble on about how you could create a Patreon and a game, but I call bullshit. Then do it. My guess is that you'd quickly realize that it is not so easy to 1) Create a good game, and 2) Get people to support and trust you. Patreon gives consumers the most control of their money than any other feasible model I have seen. You spend what you want, and if you don't want to spend, you can buy the game at the end instead. Every one of your "hypothetical scenarios" seems to ignore this fact. As such, they're not worth the time spent reading them.

I've beat this horse to death, and then beat it some more So, I'll stop posting now, but good luck to the other developers, and thank you to all the people who are willing to place their trust in us.

 

[HentaiWriter]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

You ramble on about how you could create a Patreon and a game, but I call bullshit. Then do it.

They already apparently did, twice. They apparently failed both times. This is again going off of stuff I've been told by people who know him, so yeah, if anyone wants to confirm/deny, that would be great.

 

[DarkFire1004]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

That there is a supposed money back guarantee is preposterous at best with this game as well. What happens when the game does not live up to all the hype around it and people realize its just a bad kurovadis? Should they ask for their money back?

Freeko, there's absolutely no reason to get that insulting towards HW and the game. I left this topic open even though the question was answered because nobody was straight mudslinging at each other yet and there was a reasonable discussion going on. Don't be the one to start.

Why is Freeko not banned yet, again? All he ever does in the H-Games forum is complain about Patreon and indie game devs with a sea of hypocrisy and exaggerations, as well as (in this thread) people who cant afford to do a full time or part time job and work on a game at the same time (despite the latter also being a job) shouldnt be making games at all, which would be idiotic.

By that logic, a lot of stuff in the world wouldnt exist today.

Honestly, most of Freeko's behavior towards Patreon and the above boils down to, AFAIK, him making his own game (twice, i believe), getting almost no support for it, screwing over other people in the process, and so forth. After that, he feels bitter towards other people finding success with THEIR games, and his reasoning is that if THEY find success, and HE didn't then it must be something shady or scamming going on.

That's just what I've been told though, but it would certainly fit the bill.

Freeko isn't banned because he hasn't done anything inherently wrong. The closest thing he's done to breaking the rules is being a bit too much of an ass. He also does participate in other discussions besides Patreon threads quite a bit, or I would've written him off as a troll a long time ago. He only seems like he does nothing but talk about Patreon because he's the most vocal about it. On that note though, both you and him are needlessly derailing the topic. Stop shitting on each other and keep civil with one another.

 

[hrpgheaven]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Why are you guys feeding this?

I don't want to come here and sound like I'm trying to derail it, act like a patreon white knight yada yada but, he won't understand, you guys won't get through, you're wasting walls of text in arguing with someone that gives very little importance to arguments and a lot to voicing personal opinions, I mean, I could have written three or four lines of text in my game with what I've written here, and that's such a waste.

You guys wrote walls... let it sink in.

 

[BlueBurn]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

You're not Fexeno, so you can't say what he/she will do.
But the fact that they are using it, most likely mean they need it, why don't you send them a email and ask them, instead of speculating based on your own uninformed opnion?
If they see it as viable, and there are people paying, that is their business with their own money, none of your concern on how they spend it.

I'm speculating based on what I know. I know for a fact that Fen is capable of making a game without crowd funding. He did it. So there's no debating whether or not he needs Patreon.

He's using it because why not? His game is all about constant content updates so it actually makes sense and I don't fault him for it. But my point is he doesn't need it because he already made a game without it.

 

[BlueBurn]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

So while quality may not have increased, it hasn't made them slow down significantly or stop production either. But it may have enabled them to continue when otherwise they would not.

Maybe, maybe not. We'd have to ask each of them. But then the question is, is Patreon the only way to support their development, or is it simply the current best way due to people being willing to pledge?

If quality is the same but quantity has gone up (and it most certainly has), then I would call that beneficial.

Well I think the quantity of currently in-development games has gone up, but it's not necessarily a better situation because a lot of them require a pledge to play the current version.

 

[freeko]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

They already apparently did, twice. They apparently failed both times. This is again going off of stuff I've been told by people who know him, so yeah, if anyone wants to confirm/deny, that would be great.

Hmm, since I think I would know the most about this let me tell you that you need only get through the first word before you realize the first falsity has been made.

"They?"

So I would like to know what invisible friends I happen to have? So not only have I failed twice at making a patreon campaign, I did it with others as well?
The first minor issue you have is that exactly zero parts of what you say so far are true. I would surmise the assumptions based upon your false information are probably not based on any level of reality either.

Enlighten us all, because I almost want to know myself what projects I have been working on without my knowing about it at all.

 

[thswherizat]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Hmm, since I think I would know the most about this let me tell you that you need only get through the first word before you realize the first falsity has been made.

"They?"

So I would like to know what invisible friends I happen to have? So not only have I failed twice at making a patreon campaign, I did it with others as well?
The first minor issue you have is that exactly zero parts of what you say so far are true. I would surmise the assumptions based upon your false information are probably not based on any level of reality either.

Enlighten us all, because I almost want to know myself what projects I have been working on without my knowing about it at all.

Wow, I feel like Darkfire just recently told both Hentaiwriter and you to stop slinging mud around in a topic that had been mostly constructive. Your post is contributing nothing to the topic, can we get back to that discussion?

Speaking of which, I still haven't seen anything to refute the "just don't support them" argument.

Well I think the quantity of currently in-development games has gone up, but it's not necessarily a better situation because a lot of them require a pledge to play the current version.

Which I feel is still superior to having no game at all... Many of the demos become open to the public later than the patrons. So as frustrating as it can be knowing the new version is out and you can't play it yet, there's still the hope you will get to at a later point. This is better, no?

 

[BlueBurn]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Which I feel is still superior to having no game at all... Many of the demos become open to the public later than the patrons. So as frustrating as it can be knowing the new version is out and you can't play it yet, there's still the hope you will get to at a later point. This is better, no?

Actually I really like when they release a public version on a later schedule. I was more referring to the ones that restrict all versions and even in some cases update info to patrons only.

 

[HentaiWriter]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Freeko isn't banned because he hasn't done anything inherently wrong.

Okay, so nothing I'm doing is inherently wrong when I defend the people I work with, myself, and the projects I'm involved with when they get accused of using "Bernie Madoff" tactics and scamming people and so forth, by that reasoning.
I mean, I just find it kind of bizarre that Freeko can get away with nonstop mudslinging in almost every thread regarding Patreon (and even non-Patreon ones) that he posts in on the H-Games board, but the MINUTE someone slings anything back on him, people jump to his defense and tell them to quit it out. Isn't that kind of backwards considering the average behavior of everyone involved on the H-Games board?

He also does participate in other discussions besides Patreon threads quite a bit

In the H-Games forum, I'm sorry, but he really doesn't. Around over half of his posts on the H-Games board in the past two-three months are specifically about getting mad over Patreon stuff or declaring it the end of H-games or something else ridiculous.

What really gets me is in ANY of the Patreon threads he posts on, he doesn't actually ever CONTRIBUTE, he just spams the exact same argument over and over with almost no variation, causing the thread to spiral into mudslinging, flamebaiting, and new people who aren't used to Freeko's behavior to try and counter him, until they realize it's like talking to a brick wall. So if he doesn't contribute anything to the discussion, why is he allowed to constantly post over and over in these threads with the same arguments stating;
- Patreon is full of scammers
- Patreon is a scam site in general
- Patreon creators are going to milk people for their money indefinitely
- Patreon is going to collapse eventually and everyone will lose their money
- Patreon never has games completed (despite this one being objectively untrue)
and so on, and so on.

On that note though, both you and him are needlessly derailing the topic. Stop shitting on each other and keep civil with one another.

Then please, wipe or edit his posts then when he specifically talks about other people's projects and badmouths them with off the walls statements, or else we've got every right to rebuttal back and defend ourselves when he says that kind of stuff about Patreon creators. He SPECIFICALLY is the person to start this kind of stuff in EVERY THREAD about Patreon projects, and is why every single thread involving Patreon, at some point, gets ruined for at least a few pages due to HIS actions.

I know I talked to you about the "remaking the forum thing", and you said it was out of your hands, so admins, hey, an entire topic was made that the entire H-Game forum was supposed to vote on, which was specifically moving topics about Patreon stuff TO a specific forum about Patreon stuff, or doing something about it so "Patreon sucks/isn't working/is going down/isn't wrong" topics don't come up every other day.

That made such a gigantic hubbub that people were losing their minds over it for nearly a month about how dire of an issue it was, and now it's been weeks and the topic and situation has mostly sat dormant. What happened, admins? I realize it's the holidays, but this was going on long before xmas and such.

"They?"
So I would like to know what invisible friends I happen to have? So not only have I failed twice at making a patreon campaign, I did it with others as well?

"They" is both singular and plural.

You must be registered to see the links

The first minor issue you have is that exactly zero parts of what you say so far are true. I would surmise the assumptions based upon your false information are probably not based on any level of reality either.

So, you can make objectively false assumptions about lots of people and specific entities, but the minute it happens to YOU, you're up in arms?

Wow, I feel like Darkfire just recently told both Hentaiwriter and you to stop slinging mud around in a topic that had been mostly constructive.

I'm sorry man, but if someone is comparing the game I'm working on and the team I'm working with to "Bernie Madoff" tactics, then yeah, I'm gonna defend myself. I realize this was targeted at Freeko, but just explaining my side of things.
As seen above, the general declaration is "Freeko can't be banned for being an asshole", and I'm pretty tired of just sitting around seeing him badmouth myself and others with insanely exaggerated statements and passing them off as fact.
So if he can't be banned for that, and he can get away with blatantly insulting and misrepresenting others and their projects, as well as contributing absolutely nothing to every single Patreon-based thread on the site, then the minimum I'm gonna do is defend myself and the people/projects I work with.

Your post is contributing nothing to the topic, can we get back to that discussion?

Happy to do so, would love to see freeko and (and others) targeting specific groups of creators on Patreon and specific creators to actually stick to a discussion at hand instead of calling out specific names or stating objectively false things about said groups/people over and over and over in every topic about Patreon ad nauseum, while ignoring solid rebuttals like the one you posted here;

Speaking of which, I still haven't seen anything to refute the "just don't support them" argument.

Of course you won't, because there is no refute to it, and so there is no possible rebuttal. It makes perfect sense, yet for some reason, some people can't grasp that, lol.

 

[torkenstiem]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

i cant help but laugh at all this backnforth bickerin. wanna talk about mudslingin, look at akabur games thread, theres over 100 pages of mudslingin against him and i dont think hes even batted an eye at it. why? because he hasnt lost 1$ on patreon far as i can tell, infact i think hes gained more. so, if somebody likes yer creation and they wanna donate to you, they wont care what joe blow says cause to them its all gonna be lies anyway or just opinionated bullshit. just believe in yerself and keep makin yer fans happy and there wont be nuthin to worry about.