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RPG Patreon Active Unknown/Hiatus RPG Maker [SHOEGAZER] Dungeons and Prisoners (RJ113419)


Re: RJ113419 - Dungeons and Prisoners

Kind of like the other 1k+ guys lurking around here?
 
Re: RJ113419 - Dungeons and Prisoners

Its never going to happen unless his Patrons stop giving him free money.

He's getting ~600$ a month for nothing.
Now hear me out if you're already offended: I don't blame ILL for leeching off it, I would do the same if I had the opportunity. But if his only motivation for creating this game was to get money, then why would he still work on it if he can get just as much money through sheer faith and sympathy? He'd probably make less money by actually working on it, since ,once the game has been released, his steady stream of income would suddenly stop.

It seems to me like most porn-game developers have next to zero passion going into their projects. Obviously money is always the number one priority when making games, but indie-programmers seem to at least have some passion for their project, which drives them to complete their games the way they envisioned it to be. Also putting out a good game can further their career-prospects in the long run.
When you make porn games it just doesn't work the same way, thats why you see so many developers getting burnt out. There isn't much glory in making sleazy porn-games, it seems to me like a last resort for a lot of frustated indie-developers. I may sound very judgemental saying this, but believe me I'm not, I'm the consumer after all. I'm simply talking about the mainstream appeal of porn-games, which ultimately has its limits.

Thats why you see so many porn-developers abusing Patreon so much: What is there to lose? A lot of them don't bet on making a career in the porn-game business. Its simply a means to hold themselves afloat until they find a better career-path, and when everyone keeps paying nonetheless, why work more than you need to?

TL;DR: Another Patreon rant. But THIS is the important bit: Development will never substantially continue until his Patrons re-apply some pressure. There's simply no incentive when the money stays comfortable by doing nothing.

Again this is nothing personal against ILL, its human nature to take the path of least resistance and I'd probably do the same in his situation. But there are better, fairer ways of doing this. Changing the payment system from "per month" to "per update" would be a good start. But this will never happen until the Patrons halt their cash-flow.

If you're currently contributing to his Patreon then halt your payment to force a response out of him. Then you can re-negotiate to a "per update" system, otherwise you will never see a substantial update to this game. I'm not saying this because I think that "he doesn't deserve" that money, I'm saying this because you're getting ripped off. Ultimately its your money, but I and a lot of other people want to see this project continue at some point.

Fapping is serious business
 
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Re: RJ113419 - Dungeons and Prisoners

Well, at least you're beeing honest with you feeling.
That's something worthy.

Still, concerning the game dev there a LOT we don't know about.
First would be Ill's real medical condition. We speculated a lot about what his illness would be. He could make it up to get more backer, true. But if he's trully ill with the symptoms he gave, and have the illness we estimated he must be suffering from, then the delay delay isn't anormal for a bad case of such illness.

Annnnd, there no way to know for certain (unless someone's good enough to track Ill down in real life to found out - and that's a scary though).

Personnaly, I prefer to 1) believe in his honesty untill his proven guilty 2) the amount of work for the art and coding for this game is just way to much for just some backer baits - True, the amount of work, especially if it get him in some kind of dead end somewhere on the workload may make someone want to gave up.

Well, wait & see
 
Re: RJ113419 - Dungeons and Prisoners

I personally feel that even after the game is released he could still at least do updates for more content and still get paid in Patreon for doing small releases with more content! Like new villages, quests, characters, scenes and just stuff like that.. I saw another game that did this on DLsite but they didn't have an Patreon page.. With the Patreon page Ill could release content in updates to keep people interested and coming back to support him! Win and Win xD People get to see more content for a very impressive game! Which this really is simply from seeing the content already put in!
 
Re: RJ113419 - Dungeons and Prisoners

alias34 said:
Its never going to happen unless his Patrons stop giving him free money.
Click to expand...

I'm not convinced that anything will change at this point even if the Patrons do withdraw their support. The guy has some pretty horrible, incurable stuff to deal with. It may well simply be the case that he is simply physically incapable of continuing in any meaningful capacity.

Would love to be proved wrong of course, for Il's sake if nothing else.
 
Re: RJ113419 - Dungeons and Prisoners

Didn't he flat out say the patron wasn't pay to produce a game, but put towards a fund to make him not blind? So the big rant above about him stealing money is just wrong.
 
Re: RJ113419 - Dungeons and Prisoners

markus0i said:
Didn't he flat out say the patron wasn't pay to produce a game, but put towards a fund to make him not blind? So the big rant above about him stealing money is just wrong.
Click to expand...

I believe it was something like that. The specifics I'm not entirely sure about. I'm sure there was also some concern about how Japanese Citizens aren't legally allowed to receive payment for certain things, as noted on the blog.
 
Re: RJ113419 - Dungeons and Prisoners

markus0i said:
Didn't he flat out say the patron wasn't pay to produce a game, but put towards a fund to make him not blind? So the big rant above about him stealing money is just wrong.
Click to expand...

yup. since most people use patreon in ways it wasnt intended theres a bit of misunderstanding when people get the impression they're paying him to make the game :)
 
Re: RJ113419 - Dungeons and Prisoners

alias34 said:
Its never going to happen unless his Patrons stop giving him free money.

He's getting ~600$ a month for nothing.

*SNIP*
Click to expand...

There are a number of flaws in your anti-Patreon stance. I agree that developers may abuse Patreon, but you paint too bleak a picture overall.

First, I think you underestimate the desire for most developers to see a complete project. Nearly every developer I have talked to is excited to get their game done and get feedback. Player excitement is the best reward.

Second, it is far more lucrative to finish a game than to drag on development for an existing game. Just look at Akabur and the huge boost his Patreon got when he released Witch Trainer (which was not even a complete game). Or look at Maple Syrup after finishing that short VN. If money truly is the primary incentive, developers are better off releasing a game than not. Now, for those excessively huge Patreons, maybe dragging their feet is an option, but in Ill's case we're talking $600 a month (which is not much). Just imagine how much his Patreon would be with a full release of DnP...

Third, the sheer amount of competition is going to force developers to improve. There are more and more Patreon projects, and that competition means that you must step up your game in order to stand out. Dragging your feet will come back to bite developers eventually.

Finally, Ill's case is unique in that he created the Patreon based on supporter demand. He did so for medical purposes alone, and he had created DnP years prior. I'd say most pledgers are not pledging for the complete game, but are pledging out of respect for the enjoyment he has already provided.

Now, that said. I do agree that it is up to patrons to apply pressure and force the customer-friendly changes they seek. Patreon can be an awesome model in that customers really do have the control if they choose to use it. It allows you to pay what you feel is warranted, and a large number of these games are planned to be released free upon completion. This means, if you don't like how the developer is operating, you can not pledge anything. What other model offers that? Given the level of game projects that failed prior to Patreon, I don't see any real evidence that Patreon is slowing projects down significantly. Instead, I think people underestimate just how much work goes into producing a decent game.
 
Re: RJ113419 - Dungeons and Prisoners

By the way I'm in no way advocating for making ILL suffer by taking away the money he might need for his condition (or smoking habit, after all we don't even know where the money goes). I'm trying to say that if you want to see progress you should re-negotiate his Patreon system. 600$ per update would still be good deal and should be do-able for him aswell. Who knows.
My main point is that you need to force him to a response. If you can get him to re-negotiate this by just asking him on twitter or something, forget anything I said. But once the money starts draining he'd be forced to respond. THEN you can find a fairer agreement, and ONCE that has happened you can start spending on his Patreon again.

markus0i said:
So the big rant above about him stealing money is just wrong.
Click to expand...
Way to misrepresent my point.
The fact is; since the Patreon has emerged the development on the game has pretty much slowed down to a crawl. This is no coincidence.
I never said he is stealing money. He's just abusing the Patreon system because the Patrons let him. There's barely any incentive to put more work in.
I'm sure a lot of them wanted to be kind to him and have sympathy for his problems, but I'm certain the majority of Patrons were hoping to see faster development by giving ILL the means to better treatment through regular payment. The opposite has happened though, and most likely for the reasons I stated.
 
Re: RJ113419 - Dungeons and Prisoners

Even before Patreon was this huge thing, ILL had conveyed to us that he had this condition and that it would cause delays. His illness had caused delays even before the advent of his Patreon. Why is it so unbelievable that there would be delays post-Patreon? It's a very likely coincidence in actuality.

Additionally, most people knew going into becoming patrons that there would be delays and probably still gave to him out of the goodness of their hearts because of his ailment. For God's sake, his name is ILL.

This isn't even mentioning that he's only making $600 a month which is a pittance in any Westernized country. Your argument would hold more weight if he was killing it in the thousands of dollars, but he's clearly not.

Let's not accuse him of abusing the system because a small minority of people do it.
 
Re: RJ113419 - Dungeons and Prisoners

alias34 said:
Its never going to happen unless his Patrons stop giving him free money.

He's getting ~600$ a month for nothing.
Now hear me out if you're already offended: I don't blame ILL for leeching off it, I would do the same if I had the opportunity. But if his only motivation for creating this game was to get money, then why would he still work on it if he can get just as much money through sheer faith and sympathy? He'd probably make less money by actually working on it, since ,once the game has been released, his steady stream of income would suddenly stop.

It seems to me like most porn-game developers have next to zero passion going into their projects. Obviously money is always the number one priority when making games, but indie-programmers seem to at least have some passion for their project, which drives them to complete their games the way they envisioned it to be. Also putting out a good game can further their career-prospects in the long run.
When you make porn games it just doesn't work the same way, thats why you see so many developers getting burnt out. There isn't much glory in making sleazy porn-games, it seems to me like a last resort for a lot of frustated indie-developers. I may sound very judgemental saying this, but believe me I'm not, I'm the consumer after all. I'm simply talking about the mainstream appeal of porn-games, which ultimately has its limits.

Thats why you see so many porn-developers abusing Patreon so much: What is there to lose? A lot of them don't bet on making a career in the porn-game business. Its simply a means to hold themselves afloat until they find a better career-path, and when everyone keeps paying nonetheless, why work more than you need to?

TL;DR: Another Patreon rant. But THIS is the important bit: Development will never substantially continue until his Patrons re-apply some pressure. There's simply no incentive when the money stays comfortable by doing nothing.

Again this is nothing personal against ILL, its human nature to take the path of least resistance and I'd probably do the same in his situation. But there are better, fairer ways of doing this. Changing the payment system from "per month" to "per update" would be a good start. But this will never happen until the Patrons halt their cash-flow.

If you're currently contributing to his Patreon then halt your payment to force a response out of him. Then you can re-negotiate to a "per update" system, otherwise you will never see a substantial update to this game. I'm not saying this because I think that "he doesn't deserve" that money, I'm saying this because you're getting ripped off. Ultimately its your money, but I and a lot of other people want to see this project continue at some point.

Fapping is serious business
Click to expand...

oh wow ! He's getting ~600$ a month for nothing.
oh wow ! AKABUR get 15 000$ a month for nothing.

i think ILL should get more ! because game is way better ! If he hasnt damn eyes illeness i would say quality is in that game would be double way far better!

why dont you try make born game leech like AKABUR 15 000$ gread time buy stuff get some drug life is good living in golden dreams.
 
Re: RJ113419 - Dungeons and Prisoners

Nr123 said:
oh wow ! He's getting ~600$ a month for nothing.
oh wow ! AKABUR get 15 000$ a month for nothing.

i think ILL should get more ! because game is way better ! If he hasnt damn eyes illeness i would say quality is in that game would be double way far better!
Click to expand...

I agree with you here.

I think it once again, come back to people changing the meaning and usage of the patreon platform. Of course, there should be a broad number of ways it can be used, and it's people's own money.



Everyone here, please refrain from personal attacks and focus on targeting the ideas.
 
Re: RJ113419 - Dungeons and Prisoners

Nr123 said:
stuff
Click to expand...
Not sure what that last part was supposed to mean but yeah, he does deserve money for his product. But there has to be some kind of control over it. Maybe he has been secretly working on a lot of stuff and just doesn't want to reveal it yet, but to my knowledge we haven't seen any substantial news in ages.

It would be best to just get him into the thread, if someone can manage to contact him. I simply have my doubts, but I'd still be glad to hear from him himself.
 
Re: RJ113419 - Dungeons and Prisoners

alias34 said:
By the way I'm in no way advocating for making ILL suffer by taking away the money he might need for his condition (or smoking habit, after all we don't even know where the money goes). I'm trying to say that if you want to see progress you should re-negotiate his Patreon system. 600$ per update would still be good deal and should be do-able for him aswell. Who knows.
My main point is that you need to force him to a response. If you can get him to re-negotiate this by just asking him on twitter or something, forget anything I said. But once the money starts draining he'd be forced to respond. THEN you can find a fairer agreement, and ONCE that has happened you can start spending on his Patreon again.


Way to misrepresent my point.
The fact is; since the Patreon has emerged the development on the game has pretty much slowed down to a crawl. This is no coincidence.
I never said he is stealing money. He's just abusing the Patreon system because the Patrons let him. There's barely any incentive to put more work in.
I'm sure a lot of them wanted to be kind to him and have sympathy for his problems, but I'm certain the majority of Patrons were hoping to see faster development by giving ILL the means to better treatment through regular payment. The opposite has happened though, and most likely for the reasons I stated.
Click to expand...

I don't think you understand. ILL really doesn't care if people unsub from his patreon or not, and has told people to do so if they are unhappy with his lack of updates. So what you are saying to do would literally change nothing.
 
Re: RJ113419 - Dungeons and Prisoners

At least Ill has always said the game would take forever to come out due to his horrendous health issues. That's why it's free to all until release.
 
Re: RJ113419 - Dungeons and Prisoners

Does anyone know how old ILL is? I have a pretty firm understanding of his medical condition, and was doing a little research on how it's treated in China. I have patients here that have good results combating severe uveitis in ankylosing spondylitis, was going to ask him what meds they are using for him. It's a very uncomfortable disease :(
 
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