The Ranting/Debate Thread

[Copper]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

What I find ironic is that Stephen King writes introductions to Richard Bachman books. The one for Regulators was my favorite, because it was supposedly published by Bachman's wife posthumously.

Funny, too. My cousin *adores* Nora Roberts. Can't stand J.D. Robb. Same author. Guess it's distinctly different writing styles.

 

[Exofluke]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

Moving this topic out of the awesome videos thread...

So minus the shitty animation, the simple storylines and dialog... you tell me a western cartoon that can compete with the average anime. One that isn't just you substituting your imagination for it's sloppiness.

 

[Nunu]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

i have one word for you:

Daria.

if you haven't seen it go see it, all five seasons and two movies... right now.

If you want to get into this debate though, i think you will find that most western cartoons are bad, similarly most anime is bad. There are significantly more animes than western cartoons so there will be more good ones to and because more effort is put into them they are generaly higher quality (but still not necessarily good. Another large difference is due to their target market (normaly children) they are much more commonly monster of the day format). but should you whatch something because its anime? never, just like you shouldn't watch something because its a western cartoon. watch it because its good.

 

[Newbie]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

I posit two things:
1) Just as there are shitty western cartoons there are shitty anime.
2) If you live in the west you are more likely to have been exposed to the better anime, as this is what would be profitable. They wouldn't waste their time translating an unpopular product.
That said:

You must be registered to see the links

Also Batman and Superman as mentioned in the other thread.

Also: That the first thing you posted in this debate was an anime adaptation of a western IP does not speak well for you. We had an X-Men cartoon over here, too, and it may have been the same one.

 

[Kusanagi]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

you tell me a western cartoon that can compete with the average anime.

Recent, or any of them?

I ask because as much as I'd like to list off cartoons, I kinda all but stopped watching cartoons - hell, television in general, for that matter - around 2001.

 

[Pale]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

Thundercats.

P

 

[Sinfulwolf]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

You may condemn Redwall, but you are still taking an entire section of entertainment and tossing it away, simply because you've been exposed to the good anime that people have decided is profitable in this western market.

I rather enjoyed Redwall, it was a good adaptation of a good series, and with themes and stories that somewhat belied their market towards children. I don't know if you actually watched an episode or just went "gah, animal character fuck that furry shit" and condemned Watership Down as well, but it's a damn good series, and watership down is a classic. So please tell me you've actually sat down and watched a few episodes from the start with an open mind, rather than a handful of AMVs or something akin to that.

Daria and Gargoyles have already been brought up as good western Cartoons. I mentioned Spawn (but you said adult cartoons were good... meaning your contradicting yourself when you've already said that all Western animation is shit), but there's also Kevin Smith's Clerk cartoons. And the Simpsons have had a good run, so has South Park and Family Guy (I'm not a big fan of Family Guy myself).

There's also Ren & Stimpy which is a classic to many, the Smurfs, the cartoon film Valient was actually rather good, I liked the Shrek movies. The old Disney cartoons... there is plenty of great Western animation out there that isn't meant for adults.

And what makes anime so special? I look at a lot and see just as many cliche plots and characters, shitty story lines, cheesy and sometimes downright crappy dialogue. Indeed I have a hard time getting into many animes because I'm not a huge fan of the way Japanese story telling is generally done. I don't say it's bad and there are plenty I can get into, but a majority of it isn't. One of the biggest differences I can see is that anime had some a much more eastern art style (obviously) and it's flashier. Entire animes have been carried by flashiness alone riding atop cliche after crap story but they can be entertaining. Saying Western animation sucks compared to some of these animes is like saying Kingdom of Heaven was a shitty movie because it didn't have the flashy effects of a Michael Bay film.

You cannot hold up something on a pedestal that has as much shit in it as the thing you condemn.

 

[SirOni]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

Moving this topic out of the awesome videos thread...

So minus the shitty animation, the simple storylines and dialog... you tell me a western cartoon that can compete with the average anime. One that isn't just you substituting your imagination for it's sloppiness.

Are you seriously trying to say that anime as a whole is superior to western animation? Seriously? SERIOUSLY? Need I point out Disney, Pixar and Dreamworks as three of the biggest producers in western animation that far outstrip anything Japan has ever done. Then, as other people have pointed out, the various DC cartoons (excluding Teen Titans because that was made to appeal to anime fans) and as I said in the other thread all the older Cartoon Network cartoons like Courage the Cowardly Dog, Johnny Bravo, Ed, Edd and Eddy, Dexters Lab etc... Each of them had a unique art style as well as off the walls stories, Courage in particular was very dark for a childrens cartoon and most of them even had jokes in that adults could appreciate as well. There are other cartoons that I'm sure other people will point out or have already pointed out. And like other people have said for every bad western animation there's an equally shit anime.

In fact I'm inclined to say anime has become the shittest medium simply because western animation has less cutesy moeblob bullshit trash, and the cartoons that are like that are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR YOUNG GIRLS. These moeblob anime are aimed at fat permavirgin otaku who'll happily throw their illgotten money at the studio's who produce them and the studio's know this. And why not? After all if people are fucking dumb enough to buy everything related to these transparent vomit enduced cutesy characters then why shouldn't they take advantage of the dumbfucks? But anyway, moe is the cancer that's killing anime and the sooner people realise this the sooner we can have decent anime again. Like Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei, or Welcome To The NHK or Paranoia Agent and not forgetting Fullmetal Alchemist and Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.

 

[JohnDoe]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

In the west cartoons are mostly made for children(nicklodeon comes to mind, but it's not a good example), while in the east anime can be made for children, but a lot of them are made for a much older audience(evangelion, darker than black, and many others), resulting in a general better reception from people of all ages. Animes are very important in the japanese culture and are considered a for of art in many cases (take miyazaki's movies for example).

There are a few western cartoons that manage to raise their heads above the children show, but rarely get recognition since most western people would rather look at a show with real actors rather than a cartoon.

I'd say anime tend to be better than cartoons because they are taken more seriously.

 

[Sinfulwolf]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

In the west cartoons are mostly made for children(nicklodeon comes to mind, but it's not a good example), while in the east anime can be made for children, but a lot of them are made for a much older audience(evangelion, darker than black, and many others), resulting in a general better reception from people of all ages. Animes are very important in the japanese culture and are considered a for of art in many cases (take miyazaki's movies for example).

There are a few western cartoons that manage to raise their heads above the children show, but rarely get recognition since most western people would rather look at a show with real actors rather than a cartoon.

I'd say anime tend to be better than cartoons because they are taken more seriously.

I find that I can't take many anime's seriously. The teardrop and sweat effects they use just pull me right out of the situation and really make it seem like a childish show.

 

[Exofluke]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

Let's not get to crazy here... D=

What I'm really saying is that western cartoons lack that dedication and effort. I think Nunu said it. The Asians do give a little more effort into their work, so it generally looks better.

Western toons were a lot better back in the day. Now and days, we're seeing characters that seriously look like a kiddie garden student pieced some shapes together.

Let's move up though. Let's change the target audience from kids to adults (or teens). So on one hand, we see what? Stan Lee Presents crap movies... and on the other hand, we see Afro Samurai. You tell me which is still better... =/

I can't hate on the shows specifically, cause I would be a hypocrite if I did... I'm just hating on the fact that American generated toons are lazy and cheap.

I think what's aggravating about this, to me... is that they're treated like it's grade A styled art. To make my point, just go sign up to some Kim Possible fan forum. Then post some thread that is you giving a complete layout of how crappy that art-style is. You will be flamed so hard... your PC will literally melt into a bowl of diarrhea, straight from a 60-year old man's upset ulcers.

 

[Newbie]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

You have changed your original argument from:

you tell me a western cartoon that can compete with the average anime. One that isn't just you substituting your imagination for it's sloppiness.

to:

American generated toons are lazy and cheap.

I will point out again that you are seeing an entire medium through the difficulties of determining what will be profitable enough to translate or popular enough to be translated by fans, and another by whatever ads you catch on TV. It is not an equitable experience.

Cartoons are not as popular here as anime are overseas, and as such they are given less priority and funding. They tend to look cheaper because they were cheaper to make, because they have to be. That being said, animated films tend to be huge, and tend to have a greater amount of money and resources behind them as a result.

You are dealing with two different styles operating in two different social and economic climates viewed through two entirely different frames of reference, and determining that the one that isn't given to you after the failures have been filtered out is obviously inferior. Your logic is flawed.

 

[Exofluke]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

You are dealing with two different styles operating in two different social and economic climates viewed through two entirely different frames of reference, and determining that the one that isn't given to you after the failures have been filtered out is obviously inferior. Your logic is flawed.

Then you're suggesting that art is flawed. Art is the medium by which I derive my point.

You're saying that it's the audience that decides the content. Agreed. Yet you're forgetting that as far as art is concerned, the audience doesn't get to decide. It's the artist who does.

So you have to eliminate the idea of capitalism in order to make a case for art. That's all I'm doing.

 

[JohnDoe]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

I find that I can't take many anime's seriously. The teardrop and sweat effects they use just pull me right out of the situation and really make it seem like a childish show.

Well, many cartoons are plain idotic puns and awkward pseudo-insults mixed with mindless violence and disgusting visual effects, but there is no point in focusing on the bad stuff, there is no winner to be found that way. Sometimes the effects you mentioned are used as an escamotage to lighten the atmosphere between two dramatic or dark scenes in order to give the spectator a moment of relief to better apreciate the dramatic moments.
Like when you drink something sour to better apreciatethe sweets.

Btw, the only movie disney/pixar/dreamworks ever made that stand a chance in cinematographic quality against studio ghibli's movies is Fantasia. To chose the best, you have to look at the top after all.

Edit.
Art is not directly bound to economics, if the artist is good the art is good, if the artist is bad then the art is bad, it's not like you need milion dollars of resources to make an anime, you can find a lot of flash movies made by people that do it for an hobby that look much better than most cartoons.

 

[Newbie]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

And now you are comparing them as art, which is not anywhere in your prior arguments. You need to better define the terms of this debate, because every time you post you change what you're arguing.

Regardless, you are still comparing two entire mediums, vastly diverse in and of themselves, from a perspective that makes them essentially inequitable for the most part. Anime in japan are (from my admittedly limited understanding) kind of a big deal. Even so, it's now become a dumping ground where whatever is popular is being made over and over, and then the best of it is translated and shipped overseas for your pleasure. Western toons do the opposite; the idea must be presented as popular before it will be made, and then it is made as cheaply as possible so that they can cancel it if it's not popular while taking as little a loss as possible. Japanese animation is thoroughly supported by merchandising, whereas merchandising for cartoons tends to be limited to children's toys and clothing.

You are seeing the best of a widely supported and embraced medium, and comparing it to a widely ignored and undervalued medium. This is what I'm trying to communicate to you.

 

[Exofluke]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

"dedication and effort"

^ The definitive point for how we'll find something artistic versus someone's stupid opinion.

You are seeing the best of a widely supported and embraced medium, and comparing it to a widely ignored and undervalued medium.

Take that argument to DA. You'll get your ass handed to you. That's what I'm trying to say to you.

 

[Newbie]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

So now we need a way to quantify that. For example:

The Simpsons has been on the air for over twenty years, has had the same producers for those twenty years, many of the same voice actors including six who do most of the main and secondary characters. That's certainly dedication. It's also won a shitton of awards, which is indicative of quality, which is indicative of effort.

Take that argument to DA. You'll get your ass handed to you. That's what I'm trying to say to you.

Then you ought to be able to replicate such a feat here. It is a valid point: You cannot compare the whole of one thing to the best of another thing and expect a fair contest.

 

[Exofluke]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

The irony about that statement, is that the Simpsons is drawn and animated overseas.

Anyways.

You're still in terms of this vast diversity on opinion and perspective, la la la. You have to think in terms of the people who are drawing the art.

We have to negate a lot of animators and artists simply because they're being told how to draw and what to draw. On the flip side, when artists are creating things that they are wanting to do, then we can calculate the core of effort & art.

Now I do think that many of the animators work together, and pitch ideas and stuff. So they may actually draw more from the heart, individually. But when you think in those terms, anime reigns.

Westerns cartoons are there to make a profit. So as long as the basic story is told, then voila. Yet like John Doe said, anime artists take it more seriously than just trying to cut a paycheck.

 

[Newbie]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

The Simpsons is now being drawn and animated overseas, but for a good long time it was done here. Even now, only the animation is done overseas, the character and set design, storyboarding, and everything that is not the actual animation is still done stateside. And some of the animation, even.

To imply profit is not at the core of any work published by a media outlet is naive. But you are again changing the terms from "dedication and effort" to apparently "Heart" which is massively immeasurable unless you know the people who worked on it directly, which is improbable.

 

[Exofluke]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

I'm not changing the terms of anything. Come on now... lol

Dedication and effort can apply to anything we do, obviously. I'm trying to speak in terms of art. Apply that concept just for art. Yet you are speaking in terms of I don't even know anymore...

Let's start over a bit. Tell me exactly what you're arguing.

First you argued something about capitalism and how because our social systems our different, they shouldn't be compared. Yet now that art was asserted to further my point, you're getting confused with the whole dedication and effort bit.

The core of my argument:

Western cartoons lack effort on the artistic level. Anime does better because they do put more effort in the art style. In order for this argument to have merit, you have to drop the social economical bullshit. You have to view it from the perspective of art.

Western toon illustrators are putting effort, but only to get the job done.
Asian too illustrators are also putting effort, but giving a little extra dose of "this looks visually appealing". So they put more effort.