[WIP - Full] Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

[Nidjo]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

Thanks for the progress update.

What about mentor? No idea if it'd work in a celtic setting tho, maybe best to leave it as teacher in the end.

 

[Libellule]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

I'm not sure I agree on that. Honorifics are only a handful of words, so they're not too much to learn, and I think that in a Japanese setting it makes sense to leave them be. However, VPM is a Celtic setting, and so I don't think the honorifics make any sense. As to whether or not I should change it, well, most of it should be done by find/replace, so I'm doubt it's too onerous a task...

mmmm, personaly, i'm not a good fan to change the honorific, i like to play game as near as the original dev write it ^^, even if he decided to use jap honorific in a celtic context , but that just personal XD, maybe it's possible to have 2 version XD ? lol

for a suggestions for Gwendolyn, maybe "professor" ? that a little highter than "teacher"

and thanks for all your works , we are a lot to wait patiently to play this game in english

 

[Keep]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

To be honest, i dont like the japanese honorifics.
Even less so in a celtic setting, therefore i'd go with ma'am, prof, whatever.

and about the queen being adressed with ma'am ... if so, then its pretty much because shes a chilled out queen.
i was expecting something like "your highness" or something instead.

 

[Hoboy]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

Or Mistress?

 

[Krosh]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

Just reading about your translation progress is making me a very happy guy :]

I cannot thank you enough for all your work.

 

[habisain]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

Thanks for all the support people.

As I said, the editing is going to be controversial - not everyone is going to like the change. This being said, I've always been of the localisation rather than translation mindset. And that means I don't think I can keep using the Japanese words in this one, because they just don't make sense in context. I mean, I won't be doing this change for either Lilium Union or Crystal Story Awakening, because those games are distinctly Japanese is flavour. But this one is Celtic.

As to the other suggestions on addressing Gwendolyn: Job titles for jobs that Gwendolyn doesn't have are out. The relationship between Gwendolyn and her apprentices is just that: Master/Apprentice. Gwendolyn is not a teacher, or a professor - she is a Witch.

Mistress is one I considered, but it doesn't feel quite right for Brigit to use; simply because Mistress only has the definition of "a female in control/authority" whereas Master can also mean "a skilled practitioner". However, having seen it suggested here, I realised that while it may not make sense for Brigit to use, it does make sense for Felengel to use it.

So I think I've got it all sorted now. A quick summary of how things will work in the new localisation:

Formal address for a layperson to a skilled practitioner: address using job title (e.g. Witch Brigit, Chief Witch Gwendolyn, Knight-Captain Bradan).
Felengel to Gwendolyn: Mistress
Brigit/Llywelyn to Gwendolyn: Master
Witch to Witch: Probably just first name, although I may use Ms. for formal address (need to think on this a bit)

As to Kuro-chan... I still kind of want to replace this with an English name, but still haven't come up with anything better than Blackie or Swearty (although that last one will almost certainly go over everyones heads). I may drop the -chan honorific though.

 

[redfog]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

I think Kuro-chan's breaking of the fourth wall during his naming makes it meta enough that any localization would do more harm than good.

 

[Libellule]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

Felengel to Gwendolyn: Mistress
Brigit/Llywelyn to Gwendolyn: Master

i dont see any problem with that choice, considering that in celte, the word are

Maîtresse : for ladyship
Maître : for lordship and expert (man and woman)

and Mistress/Master are the exact english translation of the word used in celte

 

[habisain]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

i dont see any problem with that choice, considering that in celte, the word are

Maîtresse : for ladyship
Maître : for lordship and expert (man and woman)

and Mistress/Master are the exact english translation of the word used in celte

Uhm... I'm pretty certain that those would be French. My trusty English/Gaelic dictionary says that Master translates to Mhaighstir (from the Latin Magister), and the closest you get to a Gaelic version of Mistress would Bana-Mhaighstir (with Bana meaning Female, and the word actually being more accurately translated as "Female Master"). I'm fairly certain Old Celtic wouldn't have a word for Master - the closest I can think of that is in Old Celtic would be neach-ciùird (Artisan).

And no, I'm not using Gaelic for these, lest I have to change all the descriptions of Witches to Bana-Bhuidse.

 

[Libellule]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

[...]

yea that french, that the today word, lot of french word come from breton who come from celte, but our celte never talked gealic, you talk about nord celte... if we go back to origine, in celtic for us that will be "Meaftrès" and "Maeftr"

so we just didn't talk about the same celte XD..., but we dont care in final that give the same thing in english

 

[Dybbuk]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

And that´s why I said that expressing the same level of respect, etc. was a pain You opened Pandora´s box Habisain.

By the way, kudos to you for checking a Gaelic dictionary when translating a Celt oriented game. You translators never cease to amaze me with your dedication.

 

[habisain]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

yea that french, that the today word, lot of french word come from breton who come from celte, but our celte never talked gealic, you talk about nord celte... if we go back to origine, in celtic for us that will be "Meaftrès" and "Maeftr"

so we just didn't talk about the same celte XD..., but we dont care in final that give the same thing in english

Oh, that makes sense. I originally thought that Celte was a typo for Celtic, and didn't consider that you may be referring to a different Celtic language... While Breton is a Celtic language, it's been mixed with French over the years, so some of the words have become quite far removed.

In any case, VPM uses British Celtic mythology, and uses the Welsh names for a number of the creatures (e.g. Cŵn Annwn), so Welsh would be the best modern day match. However, for individual words, I'd be inclined to use Scots Gaelic, because that's a language much less contaminated by modern words.

And while I'm not a linguist, I do have quite a few linguist friends.

 

[Libellule]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

hooo ok, so that me who have mixed the celte used in the game ^^

our have witch and druid too and i dont realy have see the exact context of the game (way back, stoped at the prologue when you announced the full translation for this summer )

so... i stupidly talked to fast...

 

[habisain]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

Nothing stupid - just a simple misunderstanding, and a pretty easy mistake given that Bretons and Welsh would both be Brythonic Celts, and largely follow the same beliefs, and would have both originally spoken Gaelic. It's just the issue of how the modern languages have diverged from Gaelic, with the Breton language having quite a lot more French in it than Welsh or Scots-Gaelic have English. And as I stated before, I don't think any of them really have a old Gaelic word for "Master of a craft", simply because such a concept wouldn't exist in Celtic Society. The closest you'd get would be an Artisan, Druid or a Chief, and none of those words work in this context.

While I'm not aware of an equivalent to Cŵn Annwn in Breton folklore, it's probably as simple as a different name, considering that most of the European cultures have some variation on the Wild Hunt myth. I'm pretty sure that everyone will know of the Wild Hunt myth now, given the latest Witcher game; the Cŵn Annwn are the Hounds of the Hunt in the Welsh version.

 

[Libellule]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

While I'm not aware of an equivalent to Cŵn Annwn in Breton folklore, it's probably as simple as a different name, considering that most of the European cultures have some variation on the Wild Hunt myth. I'm pretty sure that everyone will know of the Wild Hunt myth now, given the latest Witcher game; the Cŵn Annwn are the Hounds of the Hunt in the Welsh version.

yeah your right, i looked a few, and we see a lot of similarity in the lore

i didn't find the exact name for "Cŵn Annwn", but breton celte have a "Annwf " that posseded a "meute de chien gris" (gray hound)

learned a lot of thing *_*

i dont find how they transmited their knowledge, was it by master/aprentice ? or other ?

but good blacksmith was earned with title "ollam" (doctor) or "druigoba" (druide), so maybe if they had aprentice, those used the title to call them ? that hard to know :x

 

[squark]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

In reference to habisain's post three or four up the way:

There's a couple of dialects for Gaelic. Ireland has about four different dialects in itself, and Scots Gaelic is another of its own.
I can only speak for Leinster Irish, but anyway...

To be perfectly precise, Bana- is Scottish Gaelic. Ban- would be Irish Gaelic.

From Ireland, here's a few examples of our dialect: (not that would help you much at this point): Draíocht (Dree-ucht) is a general catch-all for magic. It's usually used referring to Druidism, but can also be used for Witchcraft or any form of enchantment.

Asarlaíocht (Asar-lee-ucht) is used for things like sorcery and conjuring/summoning- typically speaking.

Lastly, Gintlíocht (Ghint-lee-ucht) is more so used in referring to paganism and any associated forms of magic.

I believe these terms also apply to Scottish Gaelic, but I can't be srure.

 

[habisain]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

yeah your right, i looked a few, and we see a lot of similarity in the lore

i didn't find the exact name for "Cŵn Annwn", but breton celte have a "Annwf " that posseded a "meute de chien gris" (gray hound)

Yes, that's the right myth. I'd guess that the one you've found is a variant on version with Arawn, King of Annwn to whom the hounds (Cŵn Annwn/meute de chien gris) answer. The one used in VPM is a little confused - it mixes the English Celtic Wild Hunt myth, which is led by Woden, with the Welsh Cŵn Annwn and also with some misunderstandings about who Woden is. My translation fixes that up by using the Gwyn Ap Nudd version of the myth, which more-or-less matches up with what's stated in VPM if you ignore the name Woden.

And yes, this is another one of those issues with Translation vs Localisation. I actually know the mythology pretty well, and Searothonc made lots of mistakes when they went into details on the mythology. So I've been correcting these mistakes in my translation.

i dont find how they transmited their knowledge, was it by master/aprentice ? or other ?

but good blacksmith was earned with title "ollam" (doctor) or "druigoba" (druide), so maybe if they had aprentice, those used the title to call them ? that hard to know :x

My understanding from history was that the primary method of transferring knowledge was a master/apprentice relationship, which was quite often kept with families. The problem from the language point of view is that it seems (from modern derived languages) that while they had words to indicate e.g. a master blacksmith or a master druid, they did not have a word to indicate master of a craft. This is probably just because they didn't have enough available crafts for it to warrant a specific word.

EDIT:

@Squark: Yep, I was aware of Irish-Gaelic as well. Practically, because of access to resources, Scots-Gaelic would be my pick for the least contaminated form of Gaelic. The actual least contaminated form would almost certainly be Manx for the Goidelic variants and Cornish for the Brythonic variants, but both of these languages have less than 4000 speakers and resources are kinda thin on the ground. In any case, the old Gaelic words would be the ones common to all of the Gaelic languages... And now that I think about it, I really should have picked modern Welsh as the Gaelic language I referenced rather than Scots-Gaelic, as one is Brythonic and the other Goidelic... Oh well.

I remember when this was a translation discussion and not linguistics...

 

[Libellule]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

And yes, this is another one of those issues with Translation vs Localisation. I actually know the mythology pretty well, and Searothonc made lots of mistakes when they went into details on the mythology. So I've been correcting these mistakes in my translation.

i'm not a expert in mythology ^^, i will trust your good sense for all that

My understanding from history was that the primary method of transferring knowledge was a master/apprentice relationship, which was quite often kept with families. The problem from the language point of view is that it seems (from modern derived languages) that while they had words to indicate e.g. a master blacksmith or a master druid, they did not have a word to indicate master of a craft. This is probably just because they didn't have enough available crafts for it to warrant a specific word.

apparently (in breton celte), anyone from the productive class that was a holder of knowledge or know-how, intellectual or manual. was honored, and caled as someone "àes dàna" (gens d'art)
i thinks, that look prety mush as what a master of craft is

 

[habisain]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

apparently (in breton celte), anyone from the productive class that was a holder of knowledge or know-how, intellectual or manual. was honored, and caled as someone "àes dàna" (gens d'art)
i thinks, that look prety mush as what a master of craft is

That interesting, actually. However I'd suspect that dàna is derived from French (d'art) or old French/Latin (perhaps d'ars?), and therefore not an old Gaelic word which is where I'm trying to get to from the modern languages. Welsh/Scots/Irish are all similar, with their words for Master coming from English/Latin.

 

[Libellule]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation

That interesting, actually. However I'd suspect that dàna is derived from French (d'art) or old French/Latin (perhaps d'ars?), and therefore not an old Gaelic word which is where I'm trying to get to from the modern languages. Welsh/Scots/Irish are all similar, with their words for Master coming from English/Latin.

mmm can realy tell if he derive from french, but the "àes dàna" seem to be present in the irish celtic too

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after that just some information from internet, maybe they are not so
accurate