[WIP - Full] Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

[Keep]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

@Keep: I feel like I should clarify, in case the "translation 98% done" statement got peoples hopes up for a quick release: there's still a fair amount to do. At the very least, I would not anticipate a release this month.

I'm afraid I'm simply not one of the translators who does things as quickly as possible.

dont worry mate, but i figured: that number is high enough to slooowly start getting excited

 

[kR1pt0n1t3]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

@habisain
If it's too much of a hassle for you, I can do it for you just to lift some of the stuff of your shoulders.

 

[habisain]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

@habisain
If it's too much of a hassle for you, I can do it for you just to lift some of the stuff of your shoulders.

If I need help, I'll give you a shout. Not now though, because I need to finalise both what font I'm using exactly (i.e. if I step down to Fira Sans Light, or a different font size), as well as finalising the strings in the menu. Certain strings don't really fit the "Western" localisation that I adopted for the rest of the game ("Ero Limit", "Hentai Lv" are both rather Japanese sounding), and others seem wrong once one has knowledge of the entire game (references to "Future Husband"; as well as sounding overly literal, also clashes with the fact there are two endings with Brigit in a consensual relationship: in both she's playing for the wrong team to have a husband, so Brigit is at least Bi).

Incidentally, I quickly knocked together the "Fira Sans Ume Light" font. A couple of pictures:

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I'm leaning against this font - it frees up a bit more space, sure, but it looses on readability. However, it got me thinking of whether or not I can change font face mid-dialogue via the \x script execution command, because if I can, then I'll see about using bold for shouts and to differentiate moans and stuff. I'll give it a whirl later...

Final thing: I've decided that I'll be using some literal SFX translations as well (e.g. "doing" or "lick", as opposed to transliterating stuff that doesn't make sense). I've been doing this all along to an extent, but not very consistently. To denote SFX, I'll be using a different colour. This should let me cut down the number of crazy sound translations I have. Hopefully.

 

[Neosuduno]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

My advice, do not change the theme to a "westernized theme" if you can help it. I would keep the thing as close to the source material as possible, large in part how it would be disrespectful of the original artists that made it. A lot of westernization happened during the 90s, and it ruined a lot of good things. Heck, even today it ruins things.

My point is that people are getting this game, they know where the source material comes from, and they may not like bastardization. Translation is fine, but try to say loyal to the works of the creators.

 

[habisain]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

My advice, do not change the theme to a "westernized theme" if you can help it. I would keep the thing as close to the source material as possible, large in part how it would be disrespectful of the original artists that made it. A lot of westernization happened during the 90s, and it ruined a lot of good things. Heck, even today it ruins things.

My point is that people are getting this game, they know where the source material comes from, and they may not like bastardization. Translation is fine, but try to say loyal to the works of the creators.

You're entitled to your opinion. However, I am very strongly of the opinion that localisation is the correct way of translating. I've gone over this before, I don't think I need to go over it again. The point I'm trying to make is that terms such as Ero Limit and Hentai Lv are not English terms - there's a good chance that the target audience knows them, but ultimately, it's a hard sell to justify the use of non-English terms in an English translation. 'Cos removing non-English terms is kind of the point of an English translation.

However, your argument about the "source material" is misguided at best, and incorrect at worst. Searothonc has created a game which is set in a Celtic world. The actual source material is Celtic Mythology, mostly of the Brythonic variant, with splashes of Greek mythology thrown in. The Unseelie Court, Gwyn ap Nudd, Nuckelavee - they're all in this game, and none of them are Japanese in any way. I am certainly not ignoring the source material by favouring western terms etc - because what Searothonc created is set in a world inspired by western mythology.

Or are you suggesting that a faithful translation of a Japanese story inspired by Western mythology and set in Western world should retain the Japanese take on what a Western world is, as well as quirks of Japanese language? Including things which would not happen in a Western world, like honorifics, Japanese pet names, or even factual mistakes? Because to me, that is how you would go about butchering the source material: by favouring overly literal translation out of some kind of ideological dogma that all Japanese influence must be preserved. It's a bad argument - if Japanese influence is what you prefer, you should play the game in Japanese. It's the only way you'll get the authentic experience.

Translation needs to convey the original authors intent. It does not, and should not, convey the original authors words - because if you focus on that, you won't be focusing on conveying intent.

 

[Neosuduno]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

Fair enough, just be careful not to get too deep into looking for alternate terms. That may be the reason they decided to use local terms, that or the terms that were used were too obscure to understand. (I still remember mixing up 'boot' and 'trunk' when comparing European and local English.)

 

[dumai12]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

It's a bad argument - if Japanese influence is what you prefer, you should play the game in Japanese. It's the only way you'll get the authentic experience.

The only problem with that sentiment is that you're looking at it almost completely in black and white here. You're essentially saying go full westernization or become fluent in the language. I don't think slight hybridization for someone who is familiar with some of the common quarks and nigh untranslatable words should be taboo. Most of us are plebs who'd like the authentic experience (or something as close to it as possible), but still haven't become fluent, or may never become fluent.

For the level of exposure most people among your target audience have, it's probably more jarring for them when there is an obvious attempt at translating something in Japanese that's really not translatable in the first place. "Lost in translation" is, I believe, the number one thing that should be avoided, no matter the cost. Including a -san or two or even a translation note isn't that heavy a price. But ultimately, this is your translation, your work. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Hoboy]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

The only problem with that sentiment is that you're looking at it almost completely in black and white here. You're essentially saying go full westernization or become fluent in the language. I don't think slight hybridization for someone who is familiar with some of the common quarks and nigh untranslatable words should be taboo. Most of us are plebs who'd like the authentic experience (or something as close to it as possible), but still haven't become fluent, or may never become fluent.

For the level of exposure most people among your target audience have, it's probably more jarring for them when there is an obvious attempt at translating something in Japanese that's really not translatable in the first place. "Lost in translation" is, I believe, the number one thing that should be avoided, no matter the cost. Including a -san or two or even a translation note isn't that heavy a price. But ultimately, this is your translation, your work. Just my 2 cents.

Have to step in here and say - my two cents. Let the translator work and we can comment on the work as it gets released. I actually agree with Habisain in that trying to stay too loyal to the pure Japanese can make it stilted and only understandable if you are the core fans who get 100% where the original language was implying/leading. A broader audience can access and appreciate the game with a more broad western interpretation. I like his approach, and let's - just - let him work...

 

[habisain]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

@dumai12: As stated before, this story is not set in Japan. It's set in a Celtic world. There is zero reason to believe that any of the characters are actually speaking Japanese or using honorifics, or so-forth. The only reason why Searothonc's text has these features is because Searothonc wrote the game with a Japanese audience in mind i.e. characters only use honorifics because Japanese language expects honorifics to convey a normal level of politeness. Given that this is not required in normal English, and there is no reason to expect the language of characters in this setting to be Japanese, honorifics - and indeed, many Japanese references and idioms - should not be kept, because they get in the way of conveying the intent of the original text.

Similarly with how I changed Brigit's pet name for Felengel: "Kuro-chan" doesn't make sense as a name for an English speaker to give a cat. "Sooty" does.

And as for things which are lost-in-translation? In my experience, if done correctly, nothing is truly lost. If something cannot be translated accurately, one can substitute an equivalent expression. I mean, when people address King Humfrid in my translation, he isn't referred to as "Humfrid-sama", he's referred to using equivalent English terms such as "My Lord", or even just "King Humfrid". People also speak to him with a level of deference. The honorifics aren't kept, but their meaning is.

One could make an argument to keep more Japanese terminology if there was evidence that the characters were speaking Japanese themselves (i.e. in a Japanese setting). I'm still not sure there's a good argument for it though, as being overly literal and trying to preserve all of the literal details will likely miss actual intent. In those examples above, does the literal Japanese actually capture the detail? Not really, or at least not without Japanese knowledge which should not really be assumed of English speakers.

Finally: translation notes? You haven't looked at my patch! There's already translation notes! In fact I think I probably need to go and update them for the final release...

@Hoboy: The other good argument for letting me work in my own way is that I'm 99% of the way done already. It's far, far too late for me to go back and change core things in the way I've translated this.

 

[djunk101]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

@dumai12: As stated before, this story is not set in Japan. It's set in a Celtic world. There is zero reason to believe that any of the characters are actually speaking Japanese or using honorifics, or so-forth.

I would never have guessed the setting was part of your reasoning if you didn't say that. For a story originally written in Japanese, it feels like that should be pretty low on the list of reasons whether or not to remove certain Japanese language quirks from a translation.

I mean, by that logic, it's okay to be a little looser in translating something like My Hero Academia (which is set in Japan) or Naruto (who's world is very much inspired by Japan), but not something like Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (the majority of which, including it's first two parts, is set outside of Japan with non-Japanese characters) or Fairy Tail (who's constant use of English written text implies that the people of that world, or at least the people of Fiore, are speaking English).

The only reason why Searothonc's text has these features is because Searothonc wrote the game with a Japanese audience in mind i.e. characters only use honorifics because Japanese language expects honorifics to convey a normal level of politeness.

Something to also consider is your audience, many of whom are going to have at least some familiarity with things made for a Japanese audience. How much change is necessary or will even be wanted is something to keep in mind. For example, when I play or watch or read something from Japan that's been fan translated, I like when the honorifics are left in because it often helps to convey character relationships quicker and easier. I don't expect official translations to do this or mind when they don't because it may alienate a possible audience who doesn't understand it and they'd lose income on it, but I do like when it's done in fan translations.

Given that this is not required in normal English, and there is no reason to expect the language of characters in this setting to be Japanese, honorifics - and indeed, many Japanese references and idioms - should not be kept, because they get in the way of conveying the intent of the original text.

Similarly with how I changed Brigit's pet name for Felengel: "Kuro-chan" doesn't make sense as a name for an English speaker to give a cat. "Sooty" does.

And yet, by changing "Kuro-chan" to "Sooty", it convey's an entirely different message to me. Knowing what I do about the suffix "-chan", it feels a lot more disrespectful to Felengel than just "Sooty" does. And I guess if in the original Japanese it's just supposed to be cute and embarrassing and that's why Felengel doesn't like it, that's conveyed just fine...but if it's also meant to be seen as disrespectful to his age/experience/station, it doesn't quite send the message the way "Kuro-chan" does.


All that said, it's not really a big deal to me and I'm sure I'll be fine with whatever you do, I just wanted to throw my two cents on the pile

 

[habisain]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

As I apparently can't resist discussing translation process...

I would never have guessed the setting was part of your reasoning if you didn't say that. For a story originally written in Japanese, it feels like that should be pretty low on the list of reasons whether or not to remove certain Japanese language quirks from a translation.

I mean, by that logic, it's okay to be a little looser in translating something like My Hero Academia (which is set in Japan) or Naruto (who's world is very much inspired by Japan), but not something like Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (the majority of which, including it's first two parts, is set outside of Japan with non-Japanese characters) or Fairy Tail (who's constant use of English written text implies that the people of that world, or at least the people of Fiore, are speaking English).

I thought the point of a translation was to remove Japanese language and replace it with English though . But yes; the context is important. If you're translating something which is set in Japan, it's much easier to argue that honorifics and Japanese references are part of the cultural context - although I wouldn't say it's absolute, because in some cases those honorifics can get in the way. I think Naruto is fairly clear cut - especially in terms like Hokage - but My Hero Academia is an interesting edge case here: it's set in Japan, but a lot of it is inspired by Western Golden Age Superhero comics. There's potentially an argument that for MHA only some honorifics can be justified in translation - which in turn would get confusing fast. If there is no clear case to keep the honorifics, or indeed a case that the honorifics are only there because Japanese does not commonly use other ways of displaying politeness, they probably should be disposed of and other means used to convey what the honorifics in the original text mean.

Something to also consider is your audience, many of whom are going to have at least some familiarity with things made for a Japanese audience. How much change is necessary or will even be wanted is something to keep in mind. For example, when I play or watch or read something from Japan that's been fan translated, I like when the honorifics are left in because it often helps to convey character relationships quicker and easier. I don't expect official translations to do this or mind when they don't because it may alienate a possible audience who doesn't understand it and they'd lose income on it, but I do like when it's done in fan translations.

The problem here is that I don't get to pick my audience. I've seen this translation been circulated/linked to quite widely. While I'm sure the majority of commenters on ULMF know this kind of Japanese terminology, how about lurkers? How about people on other sites? Or even people just looking for cartoon porn games on the web? There's an argument to not dumb down, obviously, but provided that the meaning of the honorifics are conveyed through other means - e.g. respectful speech, etc - I don't think anything is lost. It just removes an artificial and somewhat elitist barrier.

Subtitles are a different case though, as you can hear the honorifics regardless. In my mind, that changes the balance a bit.

Provided that I can convey the meaning of the honorifics through speech, I
And yet, by changing "Kuro-chan" to "Sooty", it convey's an entirely different message to me. Knowing what I do about the suffix "-chan", it feels a lot more disrespectful to Felengel than just "Sooty" does. And I guess if in the original Japanese it's just supposed to be cute and embarrassing and that's why Felengel doesn't like it, that's conveyed just fine...but if it's also meant to be seen as disrespectful to his age/experience/station, it doesn't quite send the message the way "Kuro-chan" does.

Felengel does not like Brigit's pet name for him because he wants to be taken seriously, and Brigit's pet name for him is cutesy. That makes him embarrassed when she uses it - because he doesn't want to be seen as a cutesy pet cat - as well as feeding into his sense the Brigit never takes anything he says (or indeed, anything at all) seriously.

Given that you took the message that "Felengel doesn't like Sooty because it's cutesy", I'd say the translation worked exactly as intended. In fact, given that you apparently attach additional meanings to the use of the -chan suffix, I would say Sooty works better than Kuro-chan.

EDIT: Just adding the following: v1.1.3 with RPGMaker Trans v4.35 just hit 100% in un-quality-checked form. v1.1.4 with RPGMaker Trans v4.35 has about 200 new strings in it, and I think there's probably another 70 or so that will be picked up by RPGMaker Trans v5. So further progress is now completely waiting on RPGMaker Trans v5. As stated before, I'll probably do the next "proper" progress update in a couple of weeks.

 

[Sunspawn]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

I'll chime in and say that, unless the language-specific quirks are an integral part of the story's setting, translation SHOULD use the equivalents from the target language rather than leave them as-is. When reading a work in English, unless the setting is in Japan, seeing Japanese honorifics breaks immersion for me - it's part of the reason I can rarely get into translated web/light novels - the translations are often overly literal, making them rather irritating to read.

 

[Malvezzi]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

Just want to chime in too and say that I agree with Habisain, Hoboy and Sunspawn regarding this matter. It's not really much of an issue at all for me actually and I'm happy as long as more and more games are translated.

Though if we're speaking about quality translation, I think it's always best to try to fully translate / localize everything. For example, I believe Sooty is good enough compared to Kuro-chan. It's both cutesy and for someone who's quite aged, it feels disrespectful enough. Although perhaps there will be other terms that can be used too like Blackie and perhaps someone has a better idea and in that case, feel free to chime in too I guess.

Lastly, just want to thank Habisain for all the hard work and can't wait for the translation to be completed so I can finally start playing the game.

 

[habisain]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

Blackie actually was mentioned before, back when I made the change - I went with Sooty after it was suggested here (basically) on my gut, and nnescio here also pointed out that Blackie isn't typically used nowadays due to the fact it is also a racial slur. In any case, I'm sticking with Sooty at this stage, because there are limited cute names for a black cat (for those not aware, Kuro = Black).

And also because changing it now, after I'm pretty much done with the entire script, would be far too much work.

Also as a thought exercise, consider if when translating English to Japanese, would you not replace "Mr." with "-san"? I somehow doubt that would fly in Japanese. So (reversing the direction) translating honorifics to equivalent meaning English is probably the right thing to do in most circumstances.

 

[rtkamb]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

Thanks for all the hard work habisain. You're doing great work, so don't let the naysayers get you down.

 

[Malvezzi]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

Blackie actually was mentioned before, back when I made the change - I went with Sooty after it was suggested here (basically) on my gut, and nnescio here also pointed out that Blackie isn't typically used nowadays due to the fact it is also a racial slur. In any case, I'm sticking with Sooty at this stage, because there are limited cute names for a black cat (for those not aware, Kuro = Black).

Totally agreed. I also know about it being something kinda racial nowadays but I couldn't think of any other example haha. I was only giving Blackie as an example of something that can be perhaps used other than Sooty and I very much agree that Sooty is better now.

Thanks for all the hard work habisain. You're doing great work, so don't let the naysayers get you down.

Agreed again! And thus once again, thanks for your hard work Habisain!

 

[kR1pt0n1t3]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

Shit.

So you're saying me someone is actually saying a porn game "is" racist because a character inside the game is named Blacky?

LOL
Whoever said that must be a really sad person

 

[habisain]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

Shit.

So you're saying me someone is actually saying a porn game "is" racist because a character inside the game is named Blacky?

LOL
Whoever said that must be a really sad person

What? No!

The original game has Kuro-chan, which I've translated as Sooty. Blackie was a translation which was considered, but was rejected because a) I didn't like it, and b) it is also a racial slur.

Even if I liked Blackie (which I don't, because it seems too unimaginative), the original "Kuro-chan" doesn't have any racial dimension to it at all. Even if I did it unintentionally, I wouldn't want to introduce even a perceived racial element; it potentially makes a number of people uncomfortable, it can change the perceived meaning of the game substantially, and it would ultimately reflect badly on me as a person for introducing and using absolutely unnecessary racial language.

Even if you think it's sad that someone cared about this when discussing the translation of a porn game, I'm glad they did. Regardless of any moral stance on racism (which I'm opposed to; part of a progressive worldview), just the practical realities of casual racism could have caused problems for this project. If I had used Blackie and someone had taken offence, then it would kick off some unnecessary drama/arguments - as in it could have been easily avoided, but any anger would be completely justified. Unless you're actively pushing a white (or other ethnic group, I suppose) supremacist agenda, I cannot fathom why would cause offence to any ethnic group, or more practically, waste the time and effort in picking unnecessary arguments. Hence I'm glad that this was pointed out early on, and any potential issues defused well before they could become problems.

 

[kR1pt0n1t3]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

"Even if you think it's sad that someone cared about this when discussing the translation of a porn game"

Yes, I do think any person who actually considers someone to be racist because he named, for example, a dog blacky is sad af.

Nowadays ppl get offended for the stupidest reasons.

It's your translation so you can translate it however you want and even though I don't really mind Sooty at all, it sounds kinda weird to me. I'll probably translate it for myself to Kuro.

 

[habisain]

Re: Virgin's Protection Magic Translation (v 0.82 released 23/07/2017)

"Even if you think it's sad that someone cared about this when discussing the translation of a porn game"

Yes, I do think any person who actually considers someone to be racist because he named, for example, a dog blacky is sad af.

Nowadays ppl get offended for the stupidest reasons.

It's your translation so you can translate it however you want and even though I don't really mind Sooty at all, it sounds kinda weird to me. I'll probably translate it for myself to Kuro.

Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I'm personally of the opinion that stirring up unnecessary trouble is unnecessary, and that means it's worth taking into account how you might cause offence.

And also I just went over this in great detail. This is a celtic world - it's not Japan. Kuro makes absolutely zero sense in this context, because there's no reason to believe the characters ever talk in Japanese. The fact that the original text is in Japanese is neither here nor there (i.e. if I read the English language version of The Count of Monte Cristo, what language are the characters speaking? It's French - the novel is set in France, with French characters; a similar principle applies here - the characters are most likely actually speaking some form of Gaelic, or one of the modern day languages that descended from Gaelic).