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Do truer "reverse" rape titles exist?


super_slicer

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But yeah, discussions will happen when it comes to these topics because they're a social group who's societal needs need to be dealt with. Just like how African American's are like 30% of the population but they've dominated the news cycle recently for various reasons.
I vehemently disagree, though this is veering quite far offtopic, luckily we do have a thread and sub for such things! The news thread has seen some interesting developments of late even.
 
OP
D

Dan Druff

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If that's the case then your base premise quite literally can never hold true. If they make a game where the male protagonist is being raped by a horrific 90 year old monster woman, it's because some users out there would prefer that scenario, so they're still catering to user tastes. It's impossible to escape this fact. If no user would want to see such an act, than they're quite literally creating a scene with 0 appeal, which runs counter to any design sense, financially or sexually.
That's how I see typical ryona titles that make female characters so pathetically weak and submissive to the first dick that touches her. I think guys who make that stuff don't really enjoy her appearance; they enjoy her suffering as a reminder that women are supposed to be inferior. However, I'm making the mistake of assigning the male power fantasy to a female and expecting a 1:1 reversal. It's less about "Dan Druff wants to see ugly females rape handsome male" and more about "I have it out for men and want to punish them in my fiction." I don't know that because the person who puts the guy in a bad situation is also a guy. I know I can't expect porn to be sophisticated, but there is going to be a difference between the way a horny man views femdom and the way a misandrist would.
If you feel I've misrepresented any of your arguments, please explicate. The parts I'm not quoting are usually different ideas, and If I'm not quoting them it's because I don't fully disagree with your statements.
The appearance of the perpetrator and victim is becoming a distraction, but it's the best I can do to explain my argument. It's not even about what I personally want any more. I've gotten away from the original question at this point, and I used up some of my best material in earlier posts. To get back on topic, true "reverse rape" probably exists but not in the way I think. I really hate that moniker "reverse rape" but I'm trying to work within the boundaries.
Be the change you want to see. Who knows,? Maybe you'll strike gold and make me eat my words. I'm personally betting against that though. Good luck.
I wouldn't have it any other way XD
 
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super_slicer

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So what you want is porn for misandrists?
 

JustLurksHere

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I vehemently disagree, though this is veering quite far offtopic, luckily we do have a thread and sub for such things! The news thread has seen some interesting developments of late even.
Balancing things gets tricky if not only the balancing space is far higher than 3d but also the weights are both completely arbitrary *and* subjective.

Personally, I'm against systemic discrimination (defined as discrimination either explicitly or implicitly written into the local law), but not so much against personal discrimination, as that would be pretty much letting someone else decide whom/what you can like.

Then again, that's a spectrum.
I mean, would you call it systemic if it was not written into the law, but led by a dominant (religious or otherwise) social group ?
Would the answer to above change if it was a minority group ?

The way I see it, *objectively* the some tactics used by the early Nazis (before official power takeover) and those used by the #metoo antivaxers and related groups differ only along the lines of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

Boycotting / throwing bricks at Jewish shops back then isn't all that different from instigating witch hunts to get someone out of their job.
It's also easy to abuse, as it's been lately shown in The Evil Empire, when a somewhat socially oriented legislative candidate got hit by the Bipartisan Alliance Towards Furthering Funding Fathers' Goals (of Keeping Subhumans in their Place) - that one was poorly prepared, so it failed, but many succeed.

(I'm also calling back to my statement about the most available food source in the cities - unless you want to go there, having a source of financial support is quite living essential)

While I believe Human Lives (should) Matter (or at least we should pretend they do), putting any more narrow quantifier makes the statement incorrect, regardless whether it's Blue, Black, Children or anything else.

As for the original topic, rape is rape, the problem is in the last couple decades a bunch of utter morons worked hard at redefining that term, then terrorizing the majority into accepting that (again - peer pressure works exactly the same for Nazis and for antivaxers: whomever screams the longest and loudest wins, but it could be a Prohibition kind of win).
The role reversal card changes little, it's only because it's played that badly it doesn't hit the standard buttons.

It's bit like with BDSM: for some it's just dominance games, for others it's just a fig leaf of getting off on brutalizing someone (funny part being, your personal perception of where you fall doesn't need to match where you actually are).
 

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As for the original topic, rape is rape, the problem is in the last couple decades a bunch of utter morons worked hard at redefining that term, then terrorizing the majority into accepting that (again - peer pressure works exactly the same for Nazis and for antivaxers: whomever screams the longest and loudest wins, but it could be a Prohibition kind of win).
The role reversal card changes little, it's only because it's played that badly it doesn't hit the standard buttons.
There's a fundamental issue you have.

When people talk about rape and reverse rape, we're not talking about legal definitions.

Yeah, if a 30 year old female teachers assaults the 12 year old student and goes to court over it, it's called rape, not reverse rape. In the court of law that's what matters.

Sexual content is different though. People are making distinctions between the two, because while 1 might do something for you sexually the other doesn't. Someone who likes seeing males choke and shove their dick into a prone and crying woman, probably doesn't like seeing girls force themselves on a male because of their sexual tastes. Even if both situations are legally defined as rape, for the sake of finding what you want sexually, it's different.
 

JustLurksHere

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Someone who likes seeing males choke and shove their dick into a prone and crying woman, probably doesn't like seeing girls force themselves on a male because of their sexual tastes. Even if both situations are legally defined as rape, for the sake of finding what you want sexually, it's different.
...the following two lines were addressing that exactly...

Mind though I've got a quite peculiar POV - for example, whenever I see updates to a certain HP multi-crossover fanfic (one that has grown quite large since it's been first published), I keep *not* reading it not because the main character is a serial rapist, but because he's hypocritical about it.
I also despise what I call 'smutist' - fanfic authors that manage to stumble onto interesting plot points (even if many of them are valid via heavy use of porn logic), but are so engaged in smut that they fail to realize that following that path would give their fic a very twisted but somewhat amusing plot - one that has rarely - if ever - been addressed by other fics. I don't mind things smut heavy, but - as they say - I'd like some plot with my porn.
 
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TheUnsaid

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...the following two lines were addressing that exactly...
No they didn't?
It's bit like with BDSM: for some it's just dominance games, for others it's just a fig leaf of getting off on brutalizing someone (funny part being, your personal perception of where you fall doesn't need to match where you actually are).
What you wrote here, has nothing to do with the definition of rape statement you made prior. This is a switch in topic and gender neutral.

I keep *not* reading not because the main character is a serial rapist, but because he's hypocritical about it.
Oh wow. First time I'm hearing that's the deciding factor XD

I don't like this story because he's not "honest" about the raping. (I'm honestly not making fun, it's really funny to me is all.)

I wonder if that'd be the same if it was a different fetish, like let's say pedophilia. Protagonist is a serial pedophile and constantly chases after girls 10 and under, BUT he's not hypocritical about it...
I mean... I think at the end of the day, what matters the most is the sexual content not what surrounds it imho.
 
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JustLurksHere

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TheUnsaid said:
I mean... I think at the end of the day, what matters the most is the sexual content not what surrounds it imho.
Personally, as the counterargument I'd use that short part of Hannibal (the book) about getting a sample of semen using that gimmick for bulls (that is if I recall that part correctly).
 

Strange

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To try and get back to the topic: I think DanDruff is poking the issue in the right place. Let me reword/re-piece a few statements in this thread.

Does real rape exist (M>F)? Yes, but as a minority. Most works feature female abuse, but with the female clearly enjoying the act, when not proactively looking for it. A bikini warrior prancing around an orc stronghold is bound to raise a few loincloths after all.
Let us call that genre 'false rape', for argument's sake. Real rape is a traumatic experience, I doubt anyone needs be reminded of that. If writers fail to understand this or dismiss logics and the most basic psychology altogether, deal with it; but know and remember there's a plot hole - as you all do, I'm sure.

Note than the minority of rape games not in the above category, are often tagged 'Ryona'; they usually feature very ugly male-ish creatures, by common human standards.

Now, does false reverse rape exist? (the F>M counterpart of M>F false rape)
Definitely. It wouldn't be much of an exaggeration to say that the entire 'reverse rape' tag is exactly this: a man, usually vulnerable, underage and/or submissive, who just needs a little push from a busty female, to turn into a willing man-whore.
But male Ryona, or F>M real rape? Not many (Kuro quest comes to mind – awful in various ways), and among these I don't have a single example of actually ugly monsters being the assailant. 'true reverse rape' hardly exists, if at all.
Honestly, I don't really care or miss any of these. The inequity, however, is dangerous and needs be underlined. As pointed out before, reasons for submissiveness (and consequences) differ a LOT between males and females.

We can observe a somewhat recent surge of demand in works featuring male-submission, ligth-to-mild femdom, sissification, etc. Relevant examples include most Dieselmine games (and their evolution over the years), the upcoming Incubus quest or Castle of temptation; the best current example would be Virtual Succubus, boasting an incredible popularity for such a recent game.

I'll leave it to your imaginations, if these men were always there, but come out of their closet more nowadays, or if it's a new fad.
It so happens that the trend appeared early in Japanese medias (not limited to H; especially obvious in mangas), and that they have a proper tag for it: M男 (loosely: maso male).
So, pray do tell, why do they (make it, we) keep using a nonsensical reverse rape/逆レイプ, when a proper term exist to describe the genre?

If any of you need a simple argument as for why any of this matters: male rape victims exist. They're less likely to report, sometimes ridiculed when they do, and much less protected than their female counterparts. Gender equality is awesome, but goes both ways.
 

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I'll leave it to your imaginations, if these men were always there, but come out of their closet more nowadays, or if it's a new fad.
It so happens that the trend appeared early in Japanese medias (not limited to H; especially obvious in mangas), and that they have a proper tag for it: M男 (loosely: maso male).
So, pray do tell, why do they (make it, we) keep using a nonsensical reverse rape/逆レイプ, when a proper term exist to describe the genre?

If any of you need a simple argument as for why any of this matters: male rape victims exist. They're less likely to report, sometimes ridiculed when they do, and much less protected than their female counterparts. Gender equality is awesome, but goes both ways.
You do know that Reverse Rape is a tag used on DLsite to help filter these kind of games out right?



Masochistic Male has nothing to do with reverse rape. Masochistic males is more related to the propensity to take it up the butt, take wax style abuse and being ball busted. It doesn't even preclude a scene type. JAV with the masochistic male tags, can be a coersion type situation where he's forced into sex with a girl who likes it in missionary or doggystyle.

Reverse Rape, is the girl trying to please herself with a male body. Guy doesn't have to be masochistic for it to be considered as such. It usually has cowgirl or amazon position. Positions where the girl's moving in order to feel the pleasure.

And again these are ALL sexual definitions. Rape would be legally classified as rape irl, reverse or not. When people bring these terms up in the adult space, it's generally understood that people are trying to narrow down their search parameters more for sexual content. If you're looking for porn, looking for "rape" doesn't narrow it down enough. The maledom people would want more information, like "does the guy punch the girl black and blue?" This would need ryona. "Does someone die and show blood and guts?" This would need guro. Japan doesn't have a word for just female assertive sex, so it's just tied in with the word rape.

We can observe a somewhat recent surge of demand in works featuring male-submission,
It's because others made it work.
That's literally the biggest reason.

MGQ came out, and made money.
Dieselmine copied, and made their Violated Hero subseries, because Dieselmine is a business, and they were just chasing trends. Violated Hero was popular enough to get like 6 different titles.
ROBF came out and made money.

The demand was always there in the manga space, since mangaka like Honda Arima and the like are pretty old. People just didn't try it in game space until monster girl games got introduced.

Certain titles that used monster girls for maledom like Scar's games didn't do well financially so it wasn't the monster girls that people were coming for. It was the female assertive sex.

_____________________________________________

At the end of the day, these games are still products that the developers use to sustain themselves to make more. If there's no demand for the sexual content, any creator willing to work on such a product would have to quit, or won't even get the confidence to start.

ALSO, they are all predominantly consumed by MEN. 99% of the content on this site is designed for straight men.
 

super_slicer

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Honestly, I don't really care or miss any of these. The inequity, however, is dangerous and needs be underlined. As pointed out before, reasons for submissiveness (and consequences) differ a LOT between males and females.
Supposing there is an inequity (which again, I object to the idea of inequity of products, if there is a demand the market will move to fulfill it outside of a monopoly which we don't see with H-games), how in god's name is it dangerous? Better yet, how do you suggest we address it? Force people to create that sort of content? Force them to purchase that sort of content?
 

Strange

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@TheUnsaid First: your market analysis is sound, imo.

That said: look, I know you read posts thoroughly, but you need to understand concepts outside of your own perspective.
A few examples, randomly ordered:
- this is Dlsite: Beside the /maniax we all know, there's /girls or /bl.

- 逆転無し (no reversal) would be one word for 'exclusively female assertive sex' (femdom being implicit, not explicit). There are others among tens of thousands of kanjis, no doubt.

- in Japanese culture, what they call an M is very much unlike what we call a masochist. I'll let more educated people explain that fact; I'm not too privvy with these matters.

- sub and dom are temporary roles for a session, put into words or not. Most people are actually switch-es. Only a minority is only into one side of the coin (usually out of convenience, habit, or education).

- 'plot with my porn' is perfectly legit. Many people want emotional involvement, including in porn. If not for them, NTR, most VNs and dating sims would have gone extinct. Logical and sensible writing also matters (though it has seen better days)

- incidentally, MGQ is a good example of how good writing and consistent world-building, gather a wider audience (otherwise limited to the die-hard “rape me, step on me” crew). A wink and a nudge to any (other) dev reading this.

- the Nazi propaganda argument was about 'rape of the mind'. That' includes a refined form of communication, where a few people try to (over)exploit a demand they've pinpointed in a market. I advice reading Orwell's 1984 to grasp what 'systematic' means.

I just mean to say: please take the time to read between the lines as well. As a dev with a solid concept proactively looking into the market's interests, you're missing opportunities to broaden your views, not to mention your customer range.
A good art creator (games are art, like sculpting or painting) is one with a broad horizon and an open mind. The femdom 'gold fever' is currently being overexploited; that makes quality products all the more valuable.

Supposing there is an inequity (which again, I object to the idea of inequity of products, if there is a demand the market will move to fulfill it outside of a monopoly which we don't see with H-games), how in god's name is it dangerous? Better yet, how do you suggest we address it? Force people to create that sort of content? Force them to purchase that sort of content?
Fair concerns.
I was referring to inequity in MCs in particular. Rape works picture all kind of females, most of them designed to be lovable in some way, with various personalities.

But reverse rape? Empty carbon copies, most of 'em MCs. Few games even bother explaining how/why he can even get a hard-on for this or that – I do wonder sometimes.
I think it's normal for minorities to be over-represented (like the 5-10% you mentioned) – within reason. It's not 'within reason' when 95% of femdom works have girls fawning over shota-kun or zero personality-san. With no distinction whatsoever between ♀ rapists, gently assertive females or dominatrix bitches - that's where 'reverse rape' needs be broken down, at least.

The real inequity that bothers me is in quality – gameplay, world-building, logics, writing. The danger is, having greedy devs overexploit the demand - often mislabelling their own products. Obviously, they become lazy, and overall game quality takes a nosedive. Today, in a nutshell.
How to address it? Critics and boycott. Dev education and proper discussion. Making one's own game to prove the point. Not much else we can do, like with any other market.

That's mid-long term at best. I think we're kinda doomed for the next 10? 20? years. Until then, we just gotta look for the few pearls while we swim in manure.


edit: I forgot to mention a fresh (in my mind) SFW example of how crass misconceptions and biased opinions can make 'reverse' situations incredibly disturbing.
This is a manwha:
I got the same feel from this as from some games trying to go for reverse rape. Hard to put into words, but I think that's about the same feel that bothers Dan_druff with this whole 'reverse' thingy.
 
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TheUnsaid

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@Strange
Your response is interesting, mind if I respond intermittently? Just assume, I see your point on stuff I choose not to say anything about.
in Japanese culture, what they call an M is very much unlike what we call a masochist. I'll let more educated people explain that fact; I'm not too privvy with these matters.
The word masochist is western though. Not only do Japanese just write M, which is an english character, but it's written out in katakana usually which most english borrowed words are. If they're taking the word from the west, it should come with it's connotations as the word means what they want it to mean already.

sub and dom are temporary roles for a session, put into words or not. Most people are actually switch-es. Only a minority is only into one side of the coin (usually out of convenience, habit, or education).
I do think that being exclusively one type is quite rare, but I believe everyone leans heavily in one direction.
If you look around the vast majority of the erotic content on here and in VNs, you'll see that they just cater to one specific type of sexual content, and maybe throw a bone for the people of the other type every once in a while.

An example would be Dieselmine's newest Summer game? Girl clearly leans sub because almost all of her scenes are submissive.

As a dev with a solid concept proactively looking into the market's interests, you're missing opportunities to broaden your views, not to mention your customer range.
Hahaha, yeah you caught me. I am actually looking into market interests.
Though, the idea of broadening my views is just from a level of understanding. I quite literally do not care about expanding customer range by changing the sexual content in my game.

I was referring to inequity in MCs in particular. Rape works picture all kind of females, most of them designed to be lovable in some way, with various personalities.

But reverse rape? Empty carbon copies, most of 'em MCs. Few games even bother explaining how/why he can even get a hard-on for this or that – I do wonder sometimes.
This difference in Male Characters vs Female Characters is broader than eroge.

People are just... WAAAAAAAYYYY more critical of male characters than they are female characters. Female MCs can be bitches or cocky or innocent. It doesn't matter at the end of the day, because all the player really cares most about is if they're attractive. Now male characters on the other hand, are generally seen as more of a stand-in for the player since the player is male.

And yes, most reverse rape games have male mcs. If it was a female mc it'd just be a regular rape game.
Few games also bother explaining how a girl can stay wet for so long, why the characters cum buckets and all that. When it comes to porn, you don't have to explain things. I'd argue it lessens the eroticism. It's best to just go with the flow.

Again, MOST players are male. I'd argue at least 90%. Dlsite girl's side has so few purchases it's not even funny.

It's not 'within reason' when 95% of femdom works have girls fawning over shota-kun or zero personality-san.
The reason most femdom has shota characters is because the power dynamic of a little boy and an older woman.
If they're the same age, than the guy being the dominant position is expected (Which is true to reality mind you.)
Never forget that Japan's a hyper conservative society in social norms and the like.

I do agree that I want more MCs of reverse rape games like Shrift's Kazuya who's 26 or something.

Now Zero personality-san I actually take offense to. If we're talking about games with nameable MCs, like Succubus Prison's MC than obviously they're not going to show character and emotion. Just like Dragon Quest and other traditional jrpgs, those types of characters are literally designed to be bland for self-insert reasons. Games with characters like Luca from MGQ are allowed to show character because the protagonist has a defined personality. This is not an issue with reverse rape games. You're just taking an issue with the concept of nameable self-insert MCs. I actually generally agree with you on this part as I also prefer fully defined characters with motivations, goals, that act and react to the world around them over a noh-faced blank idiot with the emotional range of paper. This however isn't a problem with RR type games, but is an issue that extends even to popular JRPGs like Persona 5 and Dragon Quest XI.

But not all games are nameable MCs. Games like Minwa's three charms manages to characterize the lead character, and so does Shrift.

♀ rapists, gently assertive females or dominatrix bitches - that's where 'reverse rape' needs be broken down, at least.
Wow... it's an honest surprise me that some people think the genre's gotten so big it needs further distinction in the categorization. I'm out here struggling to even find games to play XD

The danger is, having greedy devs overexploit the demand - often mislabelling their own products.
This statement is the one I think I agree with you the most on.

Succubus Affection, and ROBF are not reverse rape games. I even argue using that label is legitimately hurting those games because some users would stay away from games with that tag, even though the main content in that game isn't even reverse rape.

Succubus Affection especially feels like it was using the label to capitalize on an already pre-existing fanbase that followed Zell. The game's structure is you beat up girls until their lust gets to max. Then when you've beat on them enough you fuck them into submission and they become your follower. Entire game can be played w/o seeing a single female assertive scene outside of the mushroom picking at the start, yet it still has the tag XD.

The ROBF developer after he got in a fight with his artist just went and made a female MC game where the FeMC got raped by ghouls and assholes.
It's clear his interest lies in male dominant sex. In ROBF, when you befriend enemies, the sex with them in the gathering room is all male assertive. The game's structure is that you're an adventurer going out and defeating monsters not with a sword but your dick.
Obviously, they become lazy, and overall game quality takes a nosedive. Today, in a nutshell.
This I disagree with.
I don't think any of the developers are lazy per se. I think improving as developers isn't easy. It takes time and practice, and people underestimate game development. Outside of Scar and Dieselmine I haven't really seen many developers with outright bad intentions. Dieselmine managed to even gather people legitimately passionate about that content type.
 

super_slicer

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I don't think any of the developers are lazy per se. I think improving as developers isn't easy. It takes time and practice, and people underestimate game development. Outside of Scar and Dieselmine I haven't really seen many developers with outright bad intentions. Dieselmine managed to even gather people legitimately passionate about that content type.
I've seen plenty of lazy cashgrabs. Just go to f95, and click the renpy prefix. Hundreds of low effort VNs to peruse. As far as I can tell what the dev really wants to make is a comic but thinks a 'game' will sell better.
 

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I've seen plenty of lazy cashgrabs. Just go to f95, and click the renpy prefix. Hundreds of low effort VNs to peruse. As far as I can tell what the dev really wants to make is a comic but thinks a 'game' will sell better.
Lol why are you ragging on VNs. Vns are a legitimate form of media.
I agree they shouldn't really classify as "games" since all you do is click and make choices every now and then, but that small level of interactivity makes them technically qualify.
 

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Lol why are you ragging on VNs. Vns are a legitimate form of media.
I agree they shouldn't really classify as "games" since all you do is click and make choices every now and then, but that small level of interactivity makes them technically qualify.
Just because VNs as a class are no different from other media in principle doesn't mean they can't be low-effort cashgrabs. There are certainly quite a few games that are.
 

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Just because VNs as a class are no different from other media in principle doesn't mean they can't be low-effort cashgrabs. There are certainly quite a few games that are.
What if the creators are actually trying but their skills are limited to only making that kind of content?
While I can say for sure because I don't peruse that content very often, the small ones I've played definitely don't have microtransactions or shady ways to try and make money.

You can argue they're low quality, but that doesn't mean lazy (especially if the games are getting finished) and it doesn't necessarily mean low effort.
 
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super_slicer

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What if the creators are actually trying but their skills are limited to only making that kind of content?
While I can say for sure because I don't peruse that content very often, the small ones I've played definitely don't have microtransactions or shady ways to try and make money.

You can argue they're low quality, but that doesn't mean lazy (especially if the games are getting finished) and it doesn't necessarily mean low effort.
Why are you lowering the bar? If you do that games don't have to be of a certain quality, they just don't have to be full of bullshit monetization. I can't say I support changing from a threshold of quality for H-games with a purchase price to 'oh hey as long as there aren't lootboxes!'.
 

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Why are you lowering the bar? If you do that games don't have to be of a certain quality, they just don't have to be full of bullshit monetization. I can't say I support changing from a threshold of quality for H-games with a purchase price to 'oh hey as long as there aren't lootboxes!'.
That bar isn't for the quality of the games, but for your statement that they're cashgrabs.
I believe those developers are trying within the best of their own capability and erotic sense to make content that appeals.

I agree with you that they're not high-quality games that I'd usually enjoy though. I've tried a few, and while they usually have one or two relatively interesting elements, I never found them interesting enough to take an afternoon's worth of time.
 

super_slicer

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That bar isn't for the quality of the games, but for your statement that they're cashgrabs.
I believe those developers are trying within the best of their own capability and erotic sense to make content that appeals.

I agree with you that they're not high-quality games that I'd usually enjoy though. I've tried a few, and while they usually have one or two relatively interesting elements, I never found them interesting enough to take an afternoon's worth of time.
And what I'm saying is that quality is intrinsic to whether I consider it a cashgrab or not. Moreover trying your best doesn't mean much, in fact it can be an outright slap in the face; imagine someone opening business XY, takes out ads in the paper, but has never actually done job XY. Worse yet, they're not even familiar with the tools necessary.
 
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