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Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?


Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

Rogues never been very good though. On iteration it took things everyone could do originally and restricted it to a single class. And it just kept doing that going forward. It exists only because of niche protection.

Fact is, rogue as a character trait is performed better by most other classes. And many archetypes grant access to Trapfinding, the only thing that forces one to use a rogue, and technically not even then.

As for the Wizard invalidating vast swathes of classes, yes, but it's a problem that has to do with many issues, and that's just as true in 5e. It's just it changed HOW he does it. He does it in 5e via necromancy, thus being superior at combat, and for everything else, more spells.

It's why I'm waiting for the alpha to start on a system I'm hoping will address this balance in a way that works. It's just one person working at the core though so it's taking a bit to reach alpha testing.

In any case, the Bard has things he can do the wizard cannot mimic, so it may be your best choice.

Also not just one class. Every other martial cept the monk invalidates the Fighter. And most things invalidate the monk.
 
Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

Bah, we should all just roll classes with a Rage power. Then we'll be the Anger M(ism)anagement party.
 
Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

Oh right, Skald. You could do Skald. Skalds are like bards but give rage with their performance instead, and rage powers.
 
Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

Zilrax said:
Oh right, Skald. You could do Skald. Skalds are like bards but give rage with their performance instead, and rage powers.
Click to expand...

S.M.A.S.H. vs the evil overlord, got it. *chuckles*

Its not the builds but the players though. Admittedly, 5.0 finally had some proper love for the rogue, but a good player can waltz through the game with an expert and be quite effective
 
Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

I'd be tempted to do Warlord in such a case. It'd be fun.

Build matters. A good player is one who can make such and know how to leverage it. They know which feats are traps, what items to use, and many rules to make use of.

But a good player can only mitigate a bad class, where they can soar with a good one. A good player can make a functional rogue or fighter. A bad player takes a rogue and fighter and goes nowhere. A bad player on a different class could be at the same level a good player on a bad class is. A good player just outpaces them when on the same level.

A good player on an Expert can do well with what they got to a certain degree, but they're on a class that is basically an rogue with even less combat ability and no trapfinding. He's probably reliant entirely on Use Magic Device to use various objects he's given by other members. These are all things a rogue could do and still be more useful. Hell, he could play an Adept and be more useful.

As an aside, I think Expert should replace Commoner. Commoner makes sense for untrained laborers at best, but even something like farming takes many skills to matter. Handle Animal to handle mules/ox and such, Profession Farmer to make a profit, Survival to read the weather patterns, Knowledge Nature to know about many details on animals and plants, Perception to watch for thieves and rustlers, Craft to repair broken tools and such, and so on.

As for 5e Rogue love, it's... Hit and miss. They didn't make a skill system really, and his bonus is sorta eh. Being able to sneak more often is nice, but it's only once a round for a kinda meh amount. So even if he got iteratives, they wouldn't help him much. And the die scales slowly so hp rapidly outpaces his damage. So he's back to skill monkey.
 
Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

I'd rather not get involved in this discussion in depth, but if you know how to play D&D, properly, it really doesn't matter what class you are with. I've fought a powerbuild incantatrix to a standstill with a rogue and thats just dice rolling. Things like thinking on your feet and creative use of what you have on hand no build can give you.

5th edition gave the rogue the tool they needed, additional mobility. With strengthening dexterity as a whole it creates a unique class with several variant dynamics, as soon as they add further variation and flavour I'll be fully on board.
 
Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

cross_grave said:
Only one class?
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Just accentuates my problem with it. It's a system that invalidates part of itself with power creep.

Thieves are one of my favorite classes in rpgs from a semantic perspective, so it's a bummer.

As for determining a "good player" in an RPG system. I think I look at RPGs in a fundamentally different way. "Correct" builds and "trap" feats just annoy me by their very existence. I don't derive any joy from gaming the system.
 
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Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

I don't like it either. It's why I'm switching to that other system soon as I can test it and make sure it's up to snuff. It's being made by someone who's just as annoyed as I am that so many options are not worth the paper they are printed on.

But since we are on this system, anyone can be a thief. It's not like you're forced to play the rogue to act like a rogue, anymore than I have to treat every barbarian as an illiterate savage or every bard as a foppish musician. I can be a military commander as a bard, or an battletrancing samurai as a barbarian. I can be a thief as a ranger, or a bandit as a wizard. Really only the paladin is kinda strapped to it's own flavor, but even that does have a bit of wiggle room.

So unless your definition of thief requires sneak attack, you can probably do it with any class you want to. As I said before, Bards a good choice, but others can do it too.
 
Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

Oh I'm quite aware that you can give yourself any number of titles regardless of your class. I'm a big Conan fan, and he epitomizes the concept.

I think I will go with a bard, but it will be a bit before I have the time to make the character. Current games are taking precedence.
 
Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

Fair enough. Some people really hardline into the idea that you must play the classes flavor as sacrosanct is all.

Well in any case, here's my Recommendations for a level 4 bard.

I'd recommend Arcane Strike, and Lingering Performance. If you're human you can also take Craft Wonderous.

Stat wise you don't need a ton of charisma to be an effective bard, you hit peak performance at 16 cha and you won't need it until late. Your spell dcs will always be low so they're not really worth investing in much. So I wouldn't bother exceeding 14 initially. I'd focus Str, Dex and Con, then some cha then wis. Int is a matter of taste, as a Bard your class features will provide you more skills than you'd lose from having a low int.

Spellwise, your level ones are mostly to taste but I recommend Silent Image for it's high versatility, and Grease for the same reason. Vanish is not a bad choice either.

Level 2's are harder as there's many you want but not much room to take them. Heroism is your biggest and best buff for allies when you're not using your song. However the combination of Invisibility and Summon Swarm is incredibly powerful. Mirror Image is one of your best defensive spells that doesn't involve invisibility. Delay Poison can save you from most toxins in the long run. Glitterdust is great utility with a possible debuff tacked on to boot. Alter Self is another good cheap buff that can also help you sneak about and see in the dark. Bladed Dash is great if you can't charge but want to get a melee hit in on a distant target. Blur is a giant middle finger to anyone with sneak attack. And so on. Needless to say you will have to make some hard choices with your level 2's.

Gear wise, focus on your defense, your song will provide more than enough offense to keep up with the martials in both accuracy and damage, along with Arcane Strike. Grab alchemical items and other consumables as well. Possibly a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, as you only need to have the potential to cast the spell to use it, and it's more efficient than learning CLW to begin with.
 
Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

Mkay. Words. I'll... try and grok all that this weekend I think.
 
Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

I personally like playing characters that quak like a dog or bark like a chicken. .. err, pretend to be another class.
300px-Muscle_wizard.jpg


Anyway, I am NOT planning to start this pre the weekend, if things go well will set up character creation later today and that'll be that.
 
Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

Awesome, gonna see if PCGen can handle a Primalist then. Crossblooded Ragers make it flip the fuck out.
 
Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

Well I wouldn't mind being a bard out-of-time. Maybe some sort of malfunctioning lady doctor who.

like maybe she's some sort of human-outsider hybrid from Pandemonium or whatever the PF equivalent is.
 
Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

cross_grave said:
Awesome, gonna see if PCGen can handle a Primalist then. Crossblooded Ragers make it flip the fuck out.
Click to expand...

PCGen? Also found this thread again x.x. Kept looking in signup area only to see it been moved XD.

Also is this allowed:
You must be registered to see the links
 
Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

It's a program for putting together character sheets and NPCs. It's pretty good, has quite a lot of options as far as customizing it goes but not everything's properly implemented yet, sadly. Certain archetypes and templates might cause bugs, for example.
 
Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

I'm one of the DM's that isn't scared of psionics so sure.
 
Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

I'm always amazed how many dms are. Second Edition Psionics left some massive scars, holy crap. It must have been the msot overpowered bullshit ever released in a first party ever. I've a dm who won't even touch the occult stuff cus it has psychic in some of the words.
 
Re: Overquest - What if the good guys had already lost?

I think psions are a nice rp potential and care little for more. Personally enjoyed playing some Wilder iterations. Sure a psion can blast an encounter away pretty hard.. and afterwards they are low on psi points, they're just like wizards with a different resource system. I acknowledge they can be scary and weird if you can't handle them, but while at it, just rule out all spellcasters. *shrugs*

Only things I can't see in this campaign are really dark and unheroic stuff, stuff not fitting high fantasy and I'll be honest, I will be careful if I hear of any summoner-synergists, cause those can be fuckin' whack yo.
 
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