Patreon games dying off?

[Anon42]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

There are plenty of buggy, problematic complete games out there. Steam refund is a new concept, and getting refunds on opened games in the past was pretty much nonexistent. As such, you have to be careful with what you spend money on--which is the same thing you should be doing with Patreon.

Just want to point out that this problem exists plenty in AAA games, too - not just indie titles. I wasted cash on Ratchet Deadlocked HD on my PS3 recently, played it for literally 10 minutes and there were so many problems I stopped immediately - got into contact with Sony, and they refused to refund me, despite the fact that I just bought it that same day and hadn't even played it for an hour. Not to mention the whole Aliens Colonial Marines fiasco. In a non-game setting, any time you go to a restaurant there's the chance they fuck up cooking your food and end up giving you food poisoning. There's a chance a doctor is going to fuck up your surgery at any given moment - or on a less devastating scale, give you the wrong diagnosis, which is a waste of time and money.

Life is literally nothing but risks, one after another, and short of suing people for their mistakes as mentioned above, there's not much you can do to hold people accountable. That's not at all to imply you just have to deal with shitty Patreon creators, because you absolutely shouldn't. If someone gives you bad vibes, trust your instinct above all else, just like you would in real life. But, you can't stop other people from trusting that person, no matter how uncomfortable they might make you feel. It's a choice for every individual person, and they're the ones who have to deal with the consequences of their choices, not you. Trying to make decisions for everybody is just gonna give you a headache.

 

[asestado]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

This whole thread is based on mistaken information. The notion that Patreon funding has gone down recently, which is incorrect. The displayed amount has changed to accurately reflect what the creators actually received, nothing more.

Therefore, the entire thread serves no purpose but to rehash tired old arguments. So, might as well throw my tired old argument into the thread:

Patreon is the most customer friendly model to ever exist for h-game distribution. YOU ONLY PAY WHAT YOU WANT. If you don't want to donate, THEN DON'T. Over half of the Patreon games are planned to be released for FREE. How many other game distribution models offer that? So, I'll bold this, if you don't like Patreon, DO NOT PLEDGE. Those games that are not free, are going to be sold upon completion. So, you're free to just wait and pay like normal. If you like English h-games, then fighting against Patreon is perhaps the silliest thing you could do.

If i may yummytiger. First of all as a h game developer i quite like how you work, you have earned my respect at that point. But i think that you arent understanding what people dont like about patreon.

Its not the model but that it needs improvement, things like what you do about taking money when you do something should be a must of every project and there are a few other things that could be better.

At least thats what i think. I dont think people hate the model or attack creators, more like that there are a lot of things that could be improved but arent still solved. When you make a game and find a bug, you usually solve it, i think its the same concept.

However i understand too that if people dont like the model then they should do as you say, dont donate, at that point im 100% with you.

Just want to point out that this problem exists plenty in AAA games, too - not just indie titles. I wasted cash on Ratchet Deadlocked HD on my PS3 recently, played it for literally 10 minutes and there were so many problems I stopped immediately - got into contact with Sony, and they refused to refund me, despite the fact that I just bought it that same day and hadn't even played it for an hour. Not to mention the whole Aliens Colonial Marines fiasco. In a non-game setting, any time you go to a restaurant there's the chance they fuck up cooking your food and end up giving you food poisoning. There's a chance a doctor is going to fuck up your surgery at any given moment - or on a less devastating scale, give you the wrong diagnosis, which is a waste of time and money.

Life is literally nothing but risks, one after another, and short of suing people for their mistakes as mentioned above, there's not much you can do to hold people accountable. That's not at all to imply you just have to deal with shitty Patreon creators, because you absolutely shouldn't. If someone gives you bad vibes, trust your instinct above all else, just like you would in real life. But, you can't stop other people from trusting that person, no matter how uncomfortable they might make you feel. It's a choice for every individual person, and they're the ones who have to deal with the consequences of their choices, not you. Trying to make decisions for everybody is just gonna give you a headache.

I have to agree in one thing, risk is a part of life. However one thing is taking a risk and another thing is not having risk at a minimum, and let me say one thing clear, authors may respect peoples opinnions, however they shouldnt obey them, they are the creators with their ideas, you are the developer and you shall never change that. One thing is to hear your supporters, another thing is being a slave. Everything needs balance.

 

[reddo]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

It has little to do with laziness and more along the lines of.. Why would I finish this game when I am getting $XXXX per month to not finish the game.

I have been against this model from the start, and I do not think it is a few dishonest/lazy patreons. I would say they are in the majority and that would ruin it for the ones who are honest. Not to go into any specific games, but I feel the pay per month plan is flat out bullshit that encourages the development of a game to find every hurdle and obstacle they can to delay the game being finished in any way shape or form possible. I can at least respect a patreon that is per update, because they need to reach the next goal before they get the pledges.

I truly hope this bubble bursts alot sooner rather than later. All it will take is for one patreon to lose their funding to start the chain reaction that I hope destroys this degenerate model. I am all for paying for a game when it is done, and I spent about $450 on games that I bought for others over the last month. I will not buy a demo of a game. If people wanted word to get out, they would be releasing demos like they do on dlsite before the game is finished. Hell I remember my magazines coming with demo disks, and demo cds as advertising gimmicks back in the day.

I never once paid for a demo of a game and I will not ever do so without getting it as part of a preorder bonus for buying the full game. I think that is the biggest problem I have with this model. Patreon users expect you to buy a demo and it has no bearing on the money used to buy the full game down the road. How much shit do you think Gamestop would get if the $5 put down to reserve a game did not go toward the purchase price of the game? We just want you to pay $5 for the privilege of buying the game from us later on, but it does guarantee your copy of the game! Sheer madness.

The problem is mostly that people (both patrons and patroned) are not using patreon correctly.

Patreon is not a tool to fund development of a project. That's Offbeatr/Kickstarter and the like. Patreon is also not the place to "sell" projects, specially unfinished ones, you do that through DLSite and the like.

Patreon is a place for patrons to fund a person who makes work they like and want to see more of, not funding a project. It's supposed to be more like a Donation and less like a Payment.


But yes, patrons should definitely remove their support as soon as the person they are donating to is no longer making them satisfied. By I guess placing the un/finished project behind the paywall is basically a coercion for the donations, so that might make people refrain from taking out their support once things go to shit. Plus they also donated a lot, so they might feel that "losing" the game now means that this investment is dead.

I'm also saddened by the number of developers who actually became slower once they moved to patreon, but that is to be expected given the circumstances.

 

[nightshad]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

You just answered your own question. Don't pledge any money if you don't trust the developer. In fact, that rebuttal works for every single argument against Patreon.

As for the rest of your post, when you purchased a complete game in the past, you also could have gotten screwed. There are plenty of buggy, problematic complete games out there. Steam refund is a new concept, and getting refunds on opened games in the past was pretty much nonexistent. As such, you have to be careful with what you spend money on--which is the same thing you should be doing with Patreon.

you have a very strong argument there and I agree with what you said

that being said. would we have any legal rights to take the dev to court if they take the cash we invest in there work and they take off with it an never finish?

 

[HentaiWriter]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

I was just checking the patreon pages for breeding season, malise and the machine and crisis point, and their pledges seem to be steadily reducing.

As everyone else said, Patreon fixed pledges to be accurate. This means literally everyone dropped quite a bit.

Also, it's Christmas. I got quite a few people saying they had to drop pledges down by half or more to pay for gifts for friends and family, which is perfectly understandable; all of them said they'd be increasing their pledge back to normal sometime around Feb. 2016.

It has little to do with laziness and more along the lines of.. Why would I finish this game when I am getting $XXXX per month to not finish the game.

Because the sales for the game, if you've done your networking right, will make you over 10 times what a year's worth of Patreon support would be for your game in a month, and because people are not idiots and will eventually start de-pledging if you don't put out content fast enough.

I find it hilarious how people will go after indie developers for being scammers and so forth (and don't get me wrong, there are people genuinely scamming others on Patreon), but then those same people completely ignore the incredible amount of scam-level stuff that goes on at the AAA game level on an almost consistent basis; even Breeding Season and Akabur are saints compared to the stuff that goes on on a daily basis with many, many AAA games.

This whole thread is based on mistaken information.

This describes almost every Patreon sucks/is failing/is corrupt thread on the site.

/end yet another Patreon thread

 

[asestado]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

As everyone else said, Patreon fixed pledges to be accurate. This means literally everyone dropped quite a bit.

Also, it's Christmas. I got quite a few people saying they had to drop pledges down by half or more to pay for gifts for friends and family, which is perfectly understandable; all of them said they'd be increasing their pledge back to normal sometime around Feb. 2016.



Because the sales for the game, if you've done your networking right, will make you over 10 times what a year's worth of Patreon support would be for your game in a month, and because people are not idiots and will eventually start de-pledging if you don't put out content fast enough.

I find it hilarious how people will go after indie developers for being scammers and so forth (and don't get me wrong, there are people genuinely scamming others on Patreon), but then those same people completely ignore the incredible amount of scam-level stuff that goes on at the AAA game level on an almost consistent basis; even Breeding Season and Akabur are saints compared to the stuff that goes on on a daily basis with many, many AAA games.



This describes almost every Patreon sucks/is failing/is corrupt thread on the site.

/end yet another Patreon thread

I can totally agree with you. I just hope that patreon starts to improve so that there are fewer scammers and the model becomes better.

Many people including me sometimes tend to generalize things that arent true at that scale, however thats a human mistake and i have to say sorry if i have offended anytime because of that or other people.

The only thing that i cant totally like is that you compared this with the AAA games, its true that they waste money too, and a LOT. However i dont think you should talk about that as an argument, if you have a business and you are losing money you should never say something like "but many other business lose too!", its important to always have a perspective of improving, without caring about what others do.

 

[torkenstiem]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

does the patreon site actually care if theres scammers tryna make money off their site, or do they make enough money to not even care about the bad reputation that these guys are causin?

 

[Hagya]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

does the patreon site actually care if theres scammers tryna make money off their site, or do they make enough money to not even care about the bad reputation that these guys are causin?

Patreon earns 5% of the scammer's jackpot so I doubt they will do anything. Plus it's hard to define what you call a scam.

 

[torkenstiem]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Patreon earns 5% of the scammer's jackpot so I doubt they will do anything. Plus it's hard to define what you call a scam.

then i guess it doesnt matter as long as yer sure of who you donate to.



editr satisfied with

 

[azurezero]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

my issue with people saying pay for update only is that would either encourage people to make an update every month even if it was insubstantial, or force people to rush projects and waste their potential... I shudder to think how much my game projects would suffer if i was forced to make one each month

 

[SXero]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

As many have pointed out before, it's just not the right model for H-Game Devs to step out on. Patreon seems to be intended for content creators who can output consistent pieces of content, such as artists, musicians, vloggers, etc etc. But as we've seen so many H-Games simply take a long time to make, we as investors don't see a return on our cash in anything resembling a short term. And that's not at the fault of the devs themselves, it's the nature of the medium if they want to produce a quality product.

A different platform to fund projects might be the way to go, but until someone builds it and has it support H-Game Devs, Patreon seems to be our only answer.

 

[Ragnarok-Bloodedge]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

This crap is hilarious.

Let me put it as a End Result for anyone who didn't get the previous messages everyone who mentioned "Patreon is good and getting better. Life is a risk 24/7 as well".

Patreon is a monthly payment, risk or no risk, pick your choice. The end result will be depending Developer Skills and Smarts, as well the very Money YOU sent the way. I'm willing to take risks, cause we lack good H-Products outta the Industry and desperately need it, other then Japan sit and make it as a living. You go and look at the friggen CoC and TS from Fenoxo, that's a giant success. Why and how? Dreadful good ideas and endless amount of time spent to make it enjoyable. CoC is STILL getting Updates from a Modder (or more?) this day, getting better over time, when Fenoxo started working on TS.

If you want to cross your fingers and hope for a shining bright H-Product outta someones Perverted Foundry, you better well damn be willing to cough up some Money so they can live a bit longer and be paid for their hard work. Nothing is free, especially life, so Patreon is a pretty well good idea if you wanna take risks and hope for a ship loaded with something YAY, MEH or NAY.

I'll end this with saying this. Cut the negative and targeted aggression towards Patreon. If SOMEONE there doesn't deliver, you made a risk, be happy you were willing to be a part of something that could've maybe been great. There's a limit to our lifespan and how much Money we generate based upon numerous reasons. So i'd like anyone who wants something from a Developer, to give them a helping hand, even if it may be shallow.

I'm done talking. Thanks for your continued hard work, HentaiWriter. Say my hello to the Staff. Looking forward to the Updates. Just take your time, don't stress yourself, we need you alive, not dead from overwork. Happy Fapmas.

 

[Shinkaiser G]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

The problem is mostly that people (both patrons and patroned) are not using patreon correctly.

Patreon is not a tool to fund development of a project. That's Offbeatr/Kickstarter and the like. Patreon is also not the place to "sell" projects, specially unfinished ones, you do that through DLSite and the like.

Patreon is a place for patrons to fund a person who makes work they like and want to see more of, not funding a project. It's supposed to be more like a Donation and less like a Payment.


But yes, patrons should definitely remove their support as soon as the person they are donating to is no longer making them satisfied. By I guess placing the un/finished project behind the paywall is basically a coercion for the donations, so that might make people refrain from taking out their support once things go to shit. Plus they also donated a lot, so they might feel that "losing" the game now means that this investment is dead.

I'm also saddened by the number of developers who actually became slower once they moved to patreon, but that is to be expected given the circumstances.

I was gonna go and type out a parapost but you pretty much nailed it on the head.

 

[BlueBurn]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Given the change to how numbers are displayed, we don't know.

It seems like the OP is concerned that the viability of developing H games is in jeopardy due to abusers giving Patreon a bad name.

I don't believe that is the case. Indie devs have been developing H games for a few years now and I don't believe we've seen an increase to completed games, or to the general quality of games with the new Patreon trend.

Take Fenoxo for example. CoC was developed without Patreon support. It's a great game. TiTS is great too and while he has chosen to use Patreon to support it, it's not clear if that can be credited to the quality or success of TiTS. I believe he would have developed it with or without Patreon.

So I don't see a reason to be concerned.

 

[freeko]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

One example does not make a point. You need to look at the whole in general.

How many people were developing before?

How many more are there taking advantage of this "money for nothing" format?

It is but a few questions to ask as there are more for certain. Of course you also have those who do not want to endanger the cash cow. Them others like me that would see the cow slaughtered as fast as possible. I feel that patreon stifles the process more than enables it.

 

[BlueBurn]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

One example does not make a point. You need to look at the whole in general.

How many people were developing before?

How many more are there taking advantage of this "money for nothing" format?

It is but a few questions to ask as there are more for certain. Of course you also have those who do not want to endanger the cash cow. Them others like me that would see the cow slaughtered as fast as possible. I feel that patreon stifles the process more than enables it.

Note that I said "completed games". I don't believe Patreon has resulted in an increase to completed games. Sure there are more currently in development now, but completed? Doubtful.

 

[random.guy]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

The key thing is know what your supporting, or look for a model that is as opposite to friendly to the developer.

Patreon has several funding settings. The most common is Pay Per month. The least common is pay per release. In fact, I only know of one patreon that does do per release updates, and that's Yummytiger. For some of them, I'm less upset(Dwarf fortress) about it then for others(Read: Breading team's endless dickering and excuses)


Anyways, The key thing is to be able to see feature bloat. If you see a game that keeps promising huge overwhelmingly large things, you should realize that it is probably being made by someone who thinks they are super awesome and can make teh gaems.

 

[Ninja_Named_Bob]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

This crap is hilarious.

I concur

Let me put it as a End Result for anyone who didn't get the previous messages everyone who mentioned "Patreon is good and getting better. Life is a risk 24/7 as well".

I'm skeptical, but sure.

Patreon is a monthly payment, risk or no risk, pick your choice. The end result will be depending Developer Skills and Smarts, as well the very Money YOU sent the way. I'm willing to take risks, cause we lack good H-Products outta the Industry and desperately need it, other then Japan sit and make it as a living. You go and look at the friggen CoC and TS from Fenoxo, that's a giant success. Why and how? Dreadful good ideas and endless amount of time spent to make it enjoyable. CoC is STILL getting Updates from a Modder (or more?) this day, getting better over time, when Fenoxo started working on TS.

There are a bunch who would argue against Fen's stuff being good and probably a smaller number who would look at you weird for putting "good ideas" and "endless amount of time spent to make it enjoyable" when referring to Fenoxo. I also don't think the H-game content in the western market is lacking (Newgrounds, ToonPimp, etc still exist) but that it's just the opposite; the market is too saturated. A severe lack of quality prevents good games from being seen while cheap flash games are dying off. If anything, it shouldn't be people mindlessly throwing money at porn games just for the sake of more porn games, but actually thinking about whether a game makes the market better or worse.

If you want to cross your fingers and hope for a shining bright H-Product outta someones Perverted Foundry, you better well damn be willing to cough up some Money so they can live a bit longer and be paid for their hard work. Nothing is free, especially life, so Patreon is a pretty well good idea if you wanna take risks and hope for a ship loaded with something YAY, MEH or NAY.

This is a horrible way to go about life. Someone who invests in the stock market will take one look at your post and say "Does this person not know how to spend wisely?", just to put it lightly. Hell, I listen to a weekly podcast hosted by a dude who owns stock and even he has said on multiple occasions "If you're going to invest in something, be sure you're getting something out of it first. If you can't guarantee the end result, put your money into something worthwhile like a friend who wants to start a business or something". Suffice it to say, that's more sound than your "COUGH UP MONEY FOR SOMETHING THAT MAY/MAY NOT HAPPEN". Also, the last part about life not being free? That's why it's called "getting a job and working for a living" and making your patreon game a side project.

In short, don't blindly invest like an idiot without knowing if it will be worth it, and don't fool yourself into thinking that being an indie developer is somehow a profitable career. Hell, I'm a writer and I can tell you right now the market is a bitch to get into. Imagine what it's like being a game developer whose competition can afford to lose as much as most patreon-funded games nowadays make without breaking a sweat.

I'll end this with saying this. Cut the negative and targeted aggression towards Patreon. If SOMEONE there doesn't deliver, you made a risk, be happy you were willing to be a part of something that could've maybe been great. There's a limit to our lifespan and how much Money we generate based upon numerous reasons. So i'd like anyone who wants something from a Developer, to give them a helping hand, even if it may be shallow.

I didn't see anyone going on the attack, so the first part of this paragraph seems unnecessary. Also, there's a definition for not delivering called "empty promise". If someone gives you money, you are obligated to finish the project or deal with the consequences. In this day and age of cyberspace, it has become too easy for people to lie through their teeth and make money off people who will blindly believe anything someone says. What you just said is basically a justification for bullshitting someone out of their money. You know what it's called when you bullshit just to get money off someone? A scam.

But you make a good point about there being a limit to how long we're alive and how much money we make. This does not mean we should take your advice but to scorn you for even suggesting supporting someone blindly. If a developer wants money, they need to get their shit together and show that there is some follow-through. If I don't know the developer, I'm sure as Hell not giving them a damn cent until I know they have a good track record. Same should apply for anyone thinking of funding a patreon in the future.

I'll conclude with saying that your thinking on this matter is a bit immature at best. Patreon does not exist to throw money blindly at something but to give people who do intend to finish what they started a means to get that extra funding through. It should not be a primary source of income, nor should it be excusable if someone gets "Overwhelmed" and quits the project without finishing. Saying "Y-you should be happy to be part of something!" is some apologist bs that needs to stop.

Also, stop making the goddamn comparison between surgery and funding on patreon. It's a stupid comparison given the situations are completely different and involve a hugely different set of risks and circumstances to begin with. And stop this "B-but AAA does it!" crap, too. You are not Bethesda, you do not make even a fraction of their quarterly and you do not possess a fraction of their consumer-base. You are, to put it as kindly as possible, an insignificant part of a small medium. Even Torotoro would have a bigger impact if they decided to kill their main IP tomorrow.

 

[freeko]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

Note that I said "completed games". I don't believe Patreon has resulted in an increase to completed games. Sure there are more currently in development now, but completed? Doubtful.

See thats the whole problem with patreon that i have. Not a single game that i see here on ulmf that is patreon funded has been or likely ever will be finished. Alot of people are jumping on the me too bandwagon because they get money for nothing in a sense. So long as they keep the ruse alive that they are making progress...

I almost want to take a game I am done with and see how much i can get from patreon as i recreate the development cycle of four days and see how long i can draw it out with redos and other bullshittery. There is nothing stopping exactly that from happening already. That is why i will never put money into anything but the purchase of a completed game.

Patreon people need to show me that they can dinish what they started before i get suckered into the smoke and mirrors act. Which goes back to not having any finished games from patreon that i can recall. Feel free to show me any that do exist because it would make it easier to weed out the conjobs from actual jobs.

 

[thswherizat]

Re: Patreon games dying off?

See thats the whole problem with patreon that i have. Not a single game that i see here on ulmf that is patreon funded has been or likely ever will be finished. Alot of people are jumping on the me too bandwagon because they get money for nothing in a sense. So long as they keep the ruse alive that they are making progress...

On that note, can you give me a list of decent examples of games that were finished previous to the Patreon thing becoming popular? Breeding Season was dead, Nanocrisis and Eronya Action got dropped, Violated Heroine and Iris Action existed before and still aren't taking money. Unforbidden was not Patreon and hasn't been finished, Urielman had abandoned Mitsuko X for months, or even really old games like Tower of Change (chapter 2).

The point is, you're being EXTREMELY biased when saying that patreon has led to an increase in unfinished games. In fact, the majority of English H games have always been demos that people went and saw the two or three enemies with H-attacks and waited hopelessly as developers faded into nothing. Remember Claire's Quest? Mitsuko X still isn't finished. Unforbidden is gone.

Alternatively, there's developers like Azurezero with plenty of finished games of shorter length, or BBBen having finished multiple PAC games and his Let Me In! (which I found a lot of fun). So we have multiple examples of all four categories. There are games that were finished before patreon, and games that remained unfinished before. Then we have games that are finished on the patreon model, and games that are unfinished.

Your whole argument is based on a selective bias; watching Breeding Season (who are scum) and Hentaiwriter (who you seem to not like, and are still clearly releasing more and more of a finished product, regardless of if you agree with their speed) while attempting to ignore Yummytiger and Azurezero (who both prove your point wrong). I need to see an entirely different angle than the "Patreon has resulted in more unfinished games" before I agree with you.

Side note, considering how we're used to getting half-completed H-game demos anyway, isn't this just as good as it would have been before? Previously we may get a demo and then wait forever in the hope of an update. Now we may get endless additions of scenes but never a sealed "finished product". For what we're after, it works out to the same thing. And those who want to spend money get to do so.