VN/TEXT SIM [ルナソフト] Dungeon's Legion-魔王に捧ぐ乙女の肢体- (RJ292145)

[Harleyquin13]

Actually yes once I optimized the start I did manage to do first two chapters almost only using level 1 goblins and heroines (used some lv 1 slimes and ropers for Jessica at the end of chapter 2). Leveled up heroines really can clear most waves by themselves with only few goblins as speedbumps for enemies so they don't come at the same time. Only way you can lose if all the invaders bunch up and go down the same path and swarm Reina at the same time and kill her (which admittedly did happen like 5 times and I had to reload but without changing the layout at all I did pass the second time it was just bad luck, never had to reload more than once the same turn). But if they come one by one Lv 3/4 Reina can kill dozens of invaders solo. And yes this does allow to dump all your souls to level up heroines and then to level up your raiders. This lets you snowball nicely since all the extra gold you get allows you to buy souls from the trader at very good ratio.

Here is a screen from my start of chapter 3. Yes all those raiders are lv 3 imps/slimes.
View attachment 34095

All research from chapter 2 completed. All heroines maxed out. Plenty of gold stocked for a head start on chapter 3 research.View attachment 34096

And yes this is nightmare difficulty.View attachment 34097
Can somebody upload save with Hell unlocked since Nightmare is still easy and boring.

Getting cocky already. Well done for surviving chapter 2, now to see how far your "traps are garbage" philosophy will take you.

1440 raid strength Vs 1800 with level 3 imps. No difference on captives, the gold difference is 70-120. I'm not resorting to save load scumming unless I want more time to level dungeon minions.

Now at chapter 4. Observations:

1. Relying on heroines alone to take out waves without minion support and/or traps is going to mean a lot of saving and loading.
2. Magic damage does not appear to work on the same formula as physical attacks, that or the damage modifier is much higher for mages.
3. Level 3 Melwen kills level 4 Jessica one on one. Losing Jessica for 3 turns is very risky without traps to cover.
4. Level 3 Rin has enough firepower to devastate rooms. In conjunction with other raiders, she's quite capable of clearing the dungeon. Level 3/4 Rayna only wins if Rin has less than 1/3 health with spell help.
5. Teleport is RNG based, but it's very useful for keeping levelled minions alive.

 

[Arakokra]

Is there anyway to full skip the cutscenes like ゴブリンの巣穴？ I know about holding CTRL during it but that still takes seconds and sometimes you have to click something.

 

[Harleyquin13]

Is there anyway to full skip the cutscenes like ゴブリンの巣穴？ I know about holding CTRL during it but that still takes seconds and sometimes you have to click something.

No.

 

[Magdragons]

Has anybody got the auto translator to work? When i put it in, all i get is a black screen, or on the main menu i cant click anything.

 

[Megas]

Getting cocky already. Well done for surviving chapter 2, now to see how far your "traps are garbage" philosophy will take you.

1440 raid strength Vs 1800 with level 3 imps. No difference on captives, the gold difference is 70-120. I'm not resorting to save load scumming unless I want more time to level dungeon minions.

Now at chapter 4. Observations:

1. Relying on heroines alone to take out waves without minion support and/or traps is going to mean a lot of saving and loading.
2. Magic damage does not appear to work on the same formula as physical attacks, that or the damage modifier is much higher for mages.
3. Level 3 Melwen kills level 4 Jessica one on one. Losing Jessica for 3 turns is very risky without traps to cover.
4. Level 3 Rin has enough firepower to devastate rooms. In conjunction with other raiders, she's quite capable of clearing the dungeon. Level 3/4 Rayna only wins if Rin has less than 1/3 health with spell help.
5. Teleport is RNG based, but it's very useful for keeping levelled minions alive.

My point was early recycle is bad and I proved that it's completely useless for first two chapters since you can clear them easily not using any leveled mosters at all. Obviously that can't be sustained in later chapters and recycle 3 is very good. I have no idea why you're getting recycle early. Traps are probably useful later too on nightmare I bet. Just not necessary on normal and early on nightmare. I will use the tools available if necessary but won't if they aren't necessary.

Since the red souls amount is pretty much fixed even if you do have same gold and research in my save I have much more stocked up leveled monsters. I didn't waste a single soul (ok I did lose like 150 from going over cap a bit sometimes) and I actually did spend over 1k gold on red souls from merchant just to level stuff up. If you did use and lost leveled up monsters that's wasted souls so you'll have less than me. I also expect you didn't buy any extra from the merchant. This is overkill and not necessary to clear the game obviously but is a significant difference.

1440 vs 1800 raid is 300 gold vs 380 gold or almost 30% difference. Probably more with the extra item drops that sell for extra gold too. That's pretty significant.

It's not savescumming. The game is heavily RNG based on how the enemies spread through the dungeon. Most of the time it's equal spread and it works for you but sometimes they all decide to bunch up and fuck over your plans. Even with good layout you can lose because of this bad RNG. I was pushing it a bit too much perhaps since I wanted to see what's the real limit but I could have easily used more monsters to avoid those. This is less savescumming than what you said you do with getting extra turns to level stuff.

 

[Harleyquin13]

My point was early recycle is bad and I proved that it's completely useless for first two chapters since you can clear them easily not using any leveled mosters at all. Obviously that can't be sustained in later chapters and recycle 3 is very good. I have no idea why you're getting recycle early. Traps are probably useful later too on nightmare I bet. Just not necessary on normal and early on nightmare. I will use the tools available if necessary but won't if they aren't necessary.

Since the red souls amount is pretty much fixed even if you do have same gold and research in my save I have much more stocked up leveled monsters. I didn't waste a single soul (ok I did lose like 150 from going over cap a bit sometimes) and I actually did spend over 1k gold on red souls from merchant just to level stuff up. If you did use and lost leveled up monsters that's wasted souls so you'll have less than me. I also expect you didn't buy any extra from the merchant. This is overkill and not necessary to clear the game obviously but is a significant difference.

1440 vs 1800 raid is 300 gold vs 380 gold or almost 30% difference. Probably more with the extra item drops that sell for extra gold too. That's pretty significant.

It's not savescumming. The game is heavily RNG based on how the enemies spread through the dungeon. Most of the time it's equal spread and it works for you but sometimes they all decide to bunch up and fuck over your plans. Even with good layout you can lose because of this bad RNG. I was pushing it a bit too much perhaps since I wanted to see what's the real limit but I could have easily used more monsters to avoid those. This is less savescumming than what you said you do with getting extra turns to level stuff.

I'll give you credit where it's due; after some thought it's probably better to go for the red soul cap upgrade soonish at the get go. I still managed to survive the first two chapters despite the delay, so probably not fatal on nightmare. Hell difficulty has higher enemy levels and bigger waves, so I'm sceptical using the heroines alone to stem the tide is still viable.

I'm less vulnerable to invader swarm because I have speed bumps from traps. Depending on which direction they come from they'll be weakened one way or another. Losses are expected, but not to the point you've described where Rayna has to fend for herself. Since you've dismissed the use of traps early on in Nightmare, it's no wonder you have more gold and souls to work with by focusing on heroine upgrades alone at the expense of dungeon defenders. One of the worst RNG outcomes in Nightmare is a heroine paying a visit two rounds in a row (this applies to Mavis in particular).

Well, you're the one who said traps were useless. So you're held to what you boast about. For a game that's got mindless gameplay according to your first post, I'm wondering why you're bothering to go through Nightmare and complaining why Hell isn't available from the get go.

 

[Megas]

The way I look at it if Reina isn't fighting you're not using your resources effectively. She has excellent stats so it's a waste for her not to fight. At least early to jumpstart your economy more quickly with the savings you get from that. Later on when you have plenty of resources and heroines it's not necessary to overwork her so much. I bet it'll be required to do this in Hell difficulty.

Traps do very little to solve the issue of enemies going down the same path and getting bunched up. Only once you get the teleport dungeon skill you can do something about it.

I still think the game is bad I just have this bad tendency of having to prove my point to win an argument.

 

[Harleyquin13]

The way I look at it if Reina isn't fighting you're not using your resources effectively. She has excellent stats so it's a waste for her not to fight. At least early to jumpstart your economy more quickly with the savings you get from that. Later on when you have plenty of resources and heroines it's not necessary to overwork her so much. I bet it'll be required to do this in Hell difficulty.

Traps do very little to solve the issue of enemies going down the same path and getting bunched up. Only once you get the teleport dungeon skill you can do something about it.

Rayna is the second worst fighter of all the heroines, the only thing she has going for her is the largest HP pool. Forcing her to fight is a last resort, since it assumes she's alone in the room.

Lightning trap and meteor trap are very helpful against bunched up enemies. The latter is available to research at the same time as the teleport trap, the lightning trap is available one chapter before. For the early game when only the poison trap is available, need to compensate with throwaway minions, a bigger dungeon and maybe the slow trap (chapter 2 onwards).

 

[Megas]

The issue is you don't know where the enemy will bunch up left, right or center. So you'd have to place the traps in all lanes. And if you do that all the enemies will get hit by lightning no matter what anyway since the lightning traps are everywhere. So the effect is the same no matter if enemies bunch up or spread out. And it still doesn't solve the issue since the lightning just slightly damages them and then they roll through one lane and overwhelm your blockers and go for Reina while the other lane still has monsters that are just doing nothing.

Reina is your best unit no contest in first two chapters. Her stats are superb compared to what you have available at that point.

 

[Harleyquin13]

Enemies slow down if they are going through the same route, so it's enough to trap two lanes and put the slow trap in the centre to give the central lane more time. If they pass through the side lanes, they get fried and they're slow enough through the centre it's good enough to put the strongest squad to stop them and hope Rayna and bodyguards handle the rest.

First chapter maybe (no one else to take on Claire) but not for chapter 2. Mavis kills Rayna if her hp is above 50% and spells can't kill her in time.

 

[Megas]

How do enemies slow down if they're going though the same route? Enemy movement speed is unchanged if there are other enemies nearby.

Side routes are longer so you I feel putting slow in the center is counterproductive since it'd make the center enemies reach you at the same time as side which is bad for you. You do want the center guys to arrive early so you deal with them before the guys that took longer routes to the sides come. If they all come at once you won't have enough blockers available at the same time to stop them. If anything slow should be on one side so it's delayed compared to the other side and staggered even more since you're breaking symmetry.

 

[Harleyquin13]

How do enemies slow down if they're going though the same route? Enemy movement speed is unchanged if there are other enemies nearby.

Side routes are longer so you I feel putting slow in the center is counterproductive since it'd make the center enemies reach you at the same time as side which is bad for you. You do want the center guys to arrive early so you deal with them before the guys that took longer routes to the sides come. If they all come at once you won't have enough blockers available at the same time to stop them. If anything slow should be on one side so it's delayed compared to the other side and staggered even more since you're breaking symmetry.

Might be just me, but it looks like they bunch up slightly before moving on if all together in a group.

Forgot to mention my standard trap configuration is poison trap as a doormat, slow traps on the sides, slow trap in the central room after the doormat and lightning/meteor on the sides. The slow trap on the second row is only switched to drain when it's available. Worst case is enemies are only poisoned and slowed if they take the centre lane beeline. I have yet to experiment replacing the second row slow trap with something else. Slow traps on the sides in the first row guarantees those taking the side route never arrive at the same time as those making a central beeline.

 

[Megas]

That's just your imagination. Each enemy moves independently and randomly and them sometimes bunching up is inevitable result of this randomness. Sometimes they bunch up sometimes they spread out. It's just random.

That's inefficient layout. Poison at the entrance is no brainer yeah. Slow traps in the center are pointless since you want central lane to be as fast as possible. Also that's the best place for damage traps since the center lane has the most traffic. Lightning on sides isn't as effective as in the center. You also want two slows on only one side not spread them on both so they have different timing. Some enemies come back from the sides to the center and you want them to be staggered too. Obviously your strongest monsters will be in the center and you want to keep them busy at all times so you want the guys that go straight to reach them asap. After that some more enemies will come that took side trek to one side but came back to center and then more will come later that took the side trek to the side with slows. That's how it's supposed to go and usually does. Doing a symmetric layout on both sides is a common assumption to make and people often do it for aesthetic reasons but it's inefficient in this case.

This is the optimal strategy and key element of winning the game. Once you figure out this enemy flow and control the timings there are not many choices left for you. Just some minor optimization like what's the most effective research order, monster combo in a room and some extra traps aside from slow ones but that's very minor stuff. If you do the basic stuff mentioned above that alone will get you though nightmare pretty comfortably. That's why the game is boring. There is just this one general strategy and the rest is just minor cosmetic stuff that doesn't matter or is obvious to figure out and doesn't require any thinking.. That's the result of the very simple dungeon layout with all rooms connecterd. If you could close some of the room connections to make some basic corridors it'd be much more interesting game.

Sometimes you're just unlucky and the spread isn't as expected and center doesn't get enough enemies and they break through both flank or one flank is ignored and other is overwhelmed or they just all go through the center and ignore flanks. If you have done enough optimization with souls and economy you might have enough leveled monsters that can handle even the bad RNG spreads but even if you don't a single reload on those bad cases without changing anything would be enough.

 

[Harleyquin13]

That's just your imagination. Each enemy moves independently and randomly and them sometimes bunching up is inevitable result of this randomness. Sometimes they bunch up sometimes they spread out. It's just random.

That's inefficient layout. Poison at the entrance is no brainer yeah. Slow traps in the center are pointless since you want central lane to be as fast as possible. Also that's the best place for damage traps since the center lane has the most traffic. Lightning on sides isn't as effective as in the center. You also want two slows on only one side not spread them on both so they have different timing. Some enemies come back from the sides to the center and you want them to be staggered too. Obviously your strongest monsters will be in the center and you want to keep them busy at all times so you want the guys that go straight to reach them asap. After that some more enemies will come that took side trek to one side but came back to center and then more will come later that took the side trek to the side with slows. That's how it's supposed to go and usually does. Doing a symmetric layout on both sides is a common assumption to make and people often do it for aesthetic reasons but it's inefficient in this case.

This is the optimal strategy and there are not many choices left for you once you figure that out.Just some minor optimization like what's the most effective research order, monster combo in a room and some extra traps aside from slow ones but that's very minor stuff. If you do the basic stuff mentioned above that alone will get you though nightmare pretty comfortably. That's why the game is boring. There is just this one general strategy and the rest is just minor cosmetic stuff. That's the result of the very simple dungeon layout with all rooms connecterd. If you could close some of the room connections to make some basic corridors it'd be much more interesting game.

Sometimes you're just unlucky and the spread isn't as expected and center doesn't get enough enemies and they break through both flank or one flank is ignored and other is overwhelmed or they just all go through the center and ignore flanks. If you have done enough optimization with souls and economy you might have enough leveled monsters that can handle even the bad RNG spreads but even if you don't a single reload on those bad cases without changing anything would be enough.

You're gambling on the sides not having any traffic, so I'm not surprised you reload so often. Assuming the centre gets the most traffic works only at the beginning because there's no space, once the dungeon expands once anything goes. I'm not sure what to put on another side wing if slow is out. Confusion plus lightning doesn't work well because confusion is only 50% to trigger and fast enemies avoid the lightning interval anyway.

Taking your suggestions into account, one way to work with traps assuming two free rows:

L-R
Slow - Poison - Confusion/sacrificial minions/Drain
Lightning/meteor - Confusion/teleport/lightning/meteor/euphoria - teleport/euphoria/meteor

That should fit your theory. From experience the meteor wing usually does a good enough job against a swarm. For the centre, the meteor trap is safest followed by euphoria. Before that anything to keep them back will have to do if not damaging. The side wing without slow needs a damage trap on the second row or euphoria, leading to it can be confusion or minions.

Need to test it for myself. The symmetric approach is cheap and stragglers are given more time to hit spells with.

 

[Megas]

Center lane gets most traffic because of how probability works. When intruders enter and are in the center they have 1/3 chance to go straight/left/right each. This causes them to (on average) split equally into all lanes. But then on the side lanes it is 1/2 chance between going forward or back to the center. Because going from center to side is 1/3 chance but going from side to center is 1/2 chance that causes the flow to concentrate in the center more than on the sides. This is pretty significant and center lane gets like 50% more enemies than sides.

I'm not saying to leave flanks empty but that you should focus your best stuff in the center since thats where most enemies are and have smaller forces on the flanks since they get smaller amounts of enemies.

The exact traps aside from slows on one side aren't really super important. Most of the work is done by monsters and traps are just minor bonus. The slows are most important since they make your monsters more effective. Other traps can be just whatever mostly.

 

[Harleyquin13]

Center lane gets most traffic because of how probability works. When intruders enter and are in the center they have 1/3 chance to go straight/left/right each. This causes them to (on average) split equally into all lanes. But then on the side lanes it is 1/2 chance between going forward or back to the center. Because going from center to side is 1/3 chance but going from side to center is 1/2 chance that causes the flow to concentrate in the center more than on the sides. This is pretty significant and center lane gets like 50% more enemies than sides.

I'm not saying to leave flanks empty but that you should focus your best stuff in the center since thats where most enemies are and have smaller forces on the flanks since they get smaller amounts of enemies.

The exact traps aside from slows on one side aren't really super important. Most of the work is done by monsters and traps are just minor bonus. The slows are most important since they make your monsters more effective. Other traps can be just whatever mostly.

Simple maths lesson there, easy to forget for games like this. Logically speaking, that's how it should go.

Experimented with the teleport trap. Not worth it unless there are three empty rows between monsters and the entrance. Then it might buy time otherwise the trigger chance is too low and the payoff not sufficient for the expense.

I still can't tell if the euphoria trap effect stacks for individuals in adjacent cells. The boost (for Nightmare at least) is certainly enough to let an initial wave of invaders get slaughtered depending on the welcoming party.

More or less figured out the trap configuration now. Once the budget worries are over, I can go wild with the trap combos.

Now at chapter 5. Henrietta and the paladins are scary now. Teleport and terror voice are really important to keep levelled units alive. Chapter 4 was less difficult than 3 once the research was done and the levelled units entered the fray.

 

[OmegaArk]

Man i am on chapter 4 and i am struggling in chapter 4 Hard difficulty. Wonder should i have rushed for lv 5 monster research and 'disabler' defense skill on ch 4 start.
I just barely completed all the research in chapter 3.
Monster Roster is filled with mostly liches and ogres and a few gazers. And filler units just for h-scene options.
Rarely filled my heroines in the dungeon they have been used as looters. Wonder which heroines are far effective as a dungeon guard.

Looks like i might not be able to get demon researched by the time chapter 4 is cleared.

 

[Harleyquin13]

Chapter 6 Nightmare: Keeping losses down requires level 5 minions across the board, the best possible trap combinations and careful use of the spells. The average horde is 40+ invaders at level 3 minimum, some will come in at level 4. If the RNG gods are kind, zero casualties is possible. Otherwise, expect 1 or 2 units to die because of the sheer numbers involved.

With this, Hell effectively throws level 5 invaders at 50+ each per wave. No wonder players are encouraged to finish the game quickly.
Now to see if Hell in this game is as ridiculous as AkuOchi Labyrinth.

 

[yuyuya]

Found an interesting bug; if you click fast enough when you deploy units into the room, you can have 4 units in 1 room, occasionally even 5. You can also have multiple heroines in the room using the same tech.

 

[Harleyquin13]

A bug which is going to be fixed in the next patch.

Aside from boosting the centre, there's not much utility in this.