Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

[DaBomb]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Is the witch casting these spells while prone on the ground?

It costs a movement action to get up from prone and it creates an attack of opportunity.

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Best I can tell, she quickened a spell on you, teleported to a new mask as the one you were on broke, then cast another spell on everyone. And she's not prone anymore because of however her teleport works.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

First of all, unrelatedly, Blueslime said they was kinda busy with RL, wanna go ahead and skip them out for a turn or wait Zilrax, I can have Ventus kinda direct Dasyra.

@Dabomb: First, theres no rule that says you can't cast spells while on the ground. It might require concentration if you're in a tight spot.. which she is, but she has enough concentration to make that one easy enough.

And yes, Zilrax interpretation is correct, the Witch has some custom villainous powers, she did the mask sacrifice thing to cheat herself up in the initiative order and reposition once before already you might recall, also, each mask heals, though the heal isn't perfect, she was still injured after using the prior mask, which had also been the one Lior managed to damage the most when those masks had been seperated into independent puppets.

Either way, you had some good rolls and she is down to one mask, the witch will likely go down unless something botches, which was by no means a certainty in this fight, but I think she worked rather well as a mini-boss type villain, pushing everyone near their limits.

p.s. Corruptive spirit: I've caught the subtle hints about wanting to nab one of those masks you placed, dun worry about it.

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

The internet ate my posts three times in a row now. Really kills motivation but I'll try to get it working. I;ve rewritten this damn thing 6 times now and at this point Vel's gonna shrug and go yeah we're never gonna see eye to eye and so forth.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Awww. Well they shouldn't, Vel is a literal demon and Ventus whilest not a devil very orderly in design. *shrugs*

Though don't let the internets frustrations exacerbate the situation, I personally find it useful to 'drop' long posts off in the word count calculator which saves the last document sent there, also gives me an idea how much I've written. ^^

 

[BlueSlime]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

I'll give a short reply with Dasyra, though honestly, I'm more curious to see if Vel is going to take all this as a sign that they shouldn't diddle with each other, and if that's the case, I'm going to feel silly in having Dasyra undress.

 

[DaBomb]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

I'm going to be busy for a few days. Apologies in advance.

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Eh, Vel's horny, she;s not feeling the mood really and is kinda annoyed but well, she;s fucked under worse circumstances.

 

[BlueSlime]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

I don't want to force anything though, from a player standpoint. Poor chemistry between characters just leads to unenthusiastic scenes, in my experience.

 

[Corruptivespirit]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

@Pervy

Ah! I'm so glad! I'm terrified that if she keeps using'm all up there won't be any left to make terrible decisions with! (all for the glory of Sethie of course)

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

@Pervy

Ah! I'm so glad! I'm terrified that if she keeps using'm all up there won't be any left to make terrible decisions with! (all for the glory of Sethie of course)

What DM would I be if I denied you the possibility of making terrible decisions.

 

[DaBomb]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Alrighty, I have a build that i've been working on and i'd like some advice on how to improve it further. Are any weaknesses noticeable or any obvious improvements that can be made?

Spoiler

Race: Catfolk
Starting Stats: STR 8 DEX 18 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 8 CHA 16
(Get DEX to 20, then rest of API's to CHA)
Classes: Ninja(Hunting Serpent) 1, Daring Champion 2, Ninja 3, Mesmerist 4, ID Rager/Urban Ranger 5 Daring Champion 6-9 Ninja 10-11, Mesmerist 12-20

Skills: Max out Acrobatics, Perception, Intimidate, Disable Device, Stealth, and Survival. Put extra points in remaining skills.

Traits: Magical Knack (Mesmerist), Reactionary?

Feats
(1) Weapon Focus (Katana)
(DCh) Champion's Finesse
(DCh) Precise Strike
(3) Slashing Grace (Katana)
(ID) Skill Focus (Stealth)
(ID) Stealthy
(5) Eldritch Heritage (Shadow) [Replaced with familiar]
(7) Intimidating Glance
(9) Conceal Scent
(11) Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shadow)
(NJA) Dampened Presence
(13) Combat Reflexes

Ninja Tricks
(3) Forgotten Trick
(11) Rogue Trick (Dampened Presence)

Cavalier Order: Warrior (Samurai Order)
ID Rager Emotion: Fear

Climb/Scent alternate traits for Catfolk

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Ask not how you can improve something, but what your goal in improving is.

Right out of the top of my head.. well, not much in the line of offensive casting and I sure hope you're not caught with your mental protections down. A level 20 character needs to be able to handle a CR 16 or below creature that is not an ideal fight for them, for example this one:

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or simply something like a dragon a la:

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Unrelatedly, waiting on your response in innocentquest.

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Yeah without knowing what the actual goal is it's hard to comment on it. I mean you could improve it by switching all your levels to wizard technically. Or race to pit fiend So maybe write out what the goals you have and the logic of your choices in those and we'll have something to work with?

But yeah, tell us what you're trying to do and maybe we can help more? But yeah Pervy's right, a level 20 character has to be able to deal with a LOT of crap. You're at the point where you're regularly dealing with immortals, armies, planar travel, and forces that by our standards are godly in nature. You're gonna need to be versatile as hell while still being potent. If you can't adapt to enemies deciding to teleport out, go ethereal, or worse, demon hordes, you aren't gonna manage.

I'm guessing you're trying to make an assassin type character with a focus on stealth shenanigans? What's this Hunting Serpent thing? I can't find it anywhere.

Why the bloodrager in particular? Can't stealth while raging, and you're not high enough in it for spells...

 

[DaBomb]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

@Pervy I did edit my post, unless there's still something wrong with it? I changed it so I was going outside and waiting for the others.

Heh, I forgot there's many ways a character can be useful. But in regards to the character, i'd like them to be as stealthy as possible as well as self sufficient. I'd like them to be able to hold their own in coat with decent DPR and the ability to debuff enemies as well.

not much in the line of offensive casting

I don't understand this, the mesmerist is the debuff bard, how doesn't it have offensive casting? (Not trying to argue, just confused by the statement.)

I sure hope you're not caught with your mental protections down.

Yeah, I think Towering Ego will help with that to a degree, but once it becomes deactivated Save or suck spells are going to destroy her. Anything to change that, besides Iron Will or buffing Wis?

Why the bloodrager in particular? Can't stealth while raging, and you're not high enough in it for spells...

Sorry, forgot to specify it's the Urban Bloodrager archtype as well. The main reason i'm taking it is for the two free feats, +10 land movement, Damage boost, and the ability to go through walls whenever I want. The first and last being the main selling points, helps her infiltration abilities by a significant amount.

What's this Hunting Serpent thing? I can't find it anywhere.

It's a new ninja archtype from the villain codex. It's pretty powerful, though the main reason i'm taking it is for Survival as a Class skill. Since my character will be tracking a lot.

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[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

i'd like them to be as stealthy as possible as well as self sufficient. I'd like them to be able to hold their own in coat with decent DPR and the ability to debuff enemies as well.

Possible, but not with a build like that, most of your classes don't get anything out of the stealth or give you self sufficence and you don't focus enough on dex to have a decent ab. Attack bonus is always a question if you multiclass a lot, I realize you rely on stealth, but thats why I put one opponent that has both tremorsense and glitterdust up, how do you deal with that, correct me if I'm mistaken, but I don't see a way for your character to even deal with flight.

I don't understand this, the mesmerist is the debuff bard, how doesn't it have offensive casting?

Two words: Spell resistance. Your character needs a lucky roll to make it through even basic SR.

Anything to change that, besides Iron Will or buffing Wis?

First of all, playing towering ego and a rage class is just plain weird in conjunction. If you have one class feature directly opposing another, it better be for good rp reasons and not powerbuilding, else you just took bloodrager because you -think- its powerful. And btw, I assume it was urban bloodrager because you build dex synergy, made no sense otherwise.

Second of all I kind of looked at this -assuming- gear for a 20th level character, including something for mind blank and against energy drain, else the fastest way to kill your character is a group of low level shadows, or perhaps a simple unholy aura I don't see strong dark vision or detection abilities or a way to counteract drain with deathward, etc, so a simple grade 1 spell will make it so you can't move under the weight of your own gear.

Finally, theres easier ways to get survival high..

Anyway.

Improvement options:

Any race that tries for stealthing has to measure its benefits and drawbacks against

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Which also have the insanely good damage mitigation/repositioning ability Roll with it, which gains scary potential in conjunction with flight. (up is a direction, after all). Finally, if you HAVE to have furry catfolk, why not

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Its comparable to your race, if you go for int casting, with cat hengeyokai, but you can also turn into a kitteh for infiltrations and sneak bonus, talking low levels that can make a huge difference depending on whom you sneak up on. Look at the cute kitteh!

Now you will say but ma charisma casting..
I will say, yeah, your build is skillpoint heavy, can I interest you in buying survival and other things cross class and going int heavy? You can easier dump charisma than wisdom as well. Yes, theres charisma drain enemies, but they are far fewer than things that'll mess up your will safe.

Abilities: But why though? Your entire build depends on dex, you start with 20 dex, 22 as goblin, put enough into int to comfortably cast and keep increasing dex. Dex is armor, initative and in your build, ab and damage why the fuck wouldn't you start with it as high as you possibly can? Unless you aim for actual spell DC or actually strong ability synergies you never need more than your highest spell grade in ability score, aka, your character don't need anything more than her starting charisma, heck thats a bit high already, if I read your multiclassing right, do you even have grade 5 or 6 spells? If you want higher charisma, just get a nymphs cloak in gear, done.

Feats: Am I wrong or do you lack Hide in plain sight? That means you stealth once and after attacking or being discovered, that was it. Without a high level ranger, rogue splash, etc you badly need:

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Classes:
Oook, where exactly does your damage come from? See, the question is, if you use high stealth.. why do you use it? You gotta have more than 'I like being hidden' if its a primary focus of your build. Now you said 'I want versatility lategame, I want the stealthyness'

Well, with the switch from charisma to int in mind still, can I

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Ignoring the part where it gives you poison immunity which also helps low ability characters, I guarantee that I can do what you do, and more damage, with a vivisectionist, beastmorph alchemist of at least lvl 14, propably more likely lvl 16, splashing in some martial classes (for example I'd splash in 4 of whirling dervish swashbuckler, gaining me all I want for the dex bonus powers, if limiting my weapon to a scimitar). Alternatively, rogue chameleon is the king of stealth and stacks up your sneak attack damage with a 3 level splash, or you go chameleon 1 ninja 3. At level 20 its a +20 stealth whenever you really need it, or a lower bonus for multiple encounters depending on your playstyle.

What this gives me what you -don't- have:
Scent, pounce, blindsense, flight (to name but a few favoured options, you can change those about with your beastmorph mutagen and gain a dex bonus equal or greater than urban rager), at least 8d6 sneak attack (I believe that exceeds your damage potential), a feat space or two to help your spells work on high level, while at it, Grade 6 alchemist spells, to replace your lower grade, low penetration mesmerist stuff.. now alchemists 'spells' may seem odd, but they give you a lot of the versatile answers you are looking for.

Also, we aren't done yet, in addition to damage and spells, things you can arguably get too, alchemists gain discoveries, which add to their versatility, in both

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and

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And of course, if you are just out for raw ability pumping power, compare your urban ranger bonus to:

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plus

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to be clear, you can pick Beast shape no. III as beastmorph alchemist anyway, but what you are looking here is a +16 to dexterity(+6 cons, +2 str, -2 to all mental), putting your base on 42, 48 with items(Assuming goblin and high point buy, still some left for cons and int ofc). Keep in mind we also have pounce, sneak attack and if I have my say, simply spam natural weapons with crippling strike. While at it, throw in hellcat pounce feat, just for the lulz and cause you meet the prerequs anyway. If you go for more power, less cool, drop in improved initative to gain a +10 bonus up on the build you present there.

Either way, that was my random first idea, I think the most efficent build for lategame versatility plus a strong focus on stealthyness is a Goblin Alchemist-vivisectionist-beastmorph, 16, Ninja(with whatever DaBomb wanted) 3, Rogue -Chameleon 1, for high bab plus natural attack 10d6 sneak attack in offensive punching power and the usual alchemist body modification nonsense to deal with versatile threats. Pounce deals with short range teleporters and you can at least keep up with etheral and other nonsense enemies with Dustform or potentially Elude Time. Finally Walk Through Space deals with obstacles and makes your stealth/repositioning really scary, which would be your job in a high level group, scouting, mobility, secondary burst damage source, plus a suprising amount of survivability even if hit past evasive powers due to alchemical discoveries. (you can't compete with the high str murderweapon of your party, or the epic caster damage output, but you don't need to, not your job.)

 

[DaBomb]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

tremorsense

I am not remotely aware on how to deal with tremorsense, it was one of the things I wanted advice on. Any insight on how to deal with that?

Finally, if you HAVE to have furry catfolk

I'm a catfolk because it's ability points match perfectly for a ninja, it has a +2 to 3 skills that I will use frequently, has a climb speed at level 1 and has scent at level 1. Climb and scent alone is a huge reason to take the race, especially for one that will be stealthing about.

going int heavy?

Not really, I have two class features that rely on charisma. The Ninja's ki and the Daring Champion's Panache. I need ki for Forgotten trick and the extra attack ninjas get, panache for all the nifty things Daring Champion gets. Plus mah intimidate!

why the fuck wouldn't you start with it as high as you possibly can?

Because point buy 20 is a cunt and I don't want to gimp my character to just get an 18 to 20. I don't want to have a 7 for strength and I sure as hell don't want her wisdom any lower than it already is. I will most likely put all my ABI's into DEX, since i'd get more from it than CHA. So, I'll change that part.

if I read your multiclassing right, do you even have grade 5 or 6 spells?

I have level 4 spells, I believe only 2 at that. I was also going to ask you which spells would be the best to pick, if you would.

Am I wrong or do you lack Hide in plain sight?

Yeah, you're wrong on that one. Check the level 9 power of the Shadow Bloodline for the sorcerer. It's pretty fucking good. Easily one of the better bloodlines they've made.

Oook, where exactly does your damage come from?

Precise Strike, shit loads of crits, a few sneak attack dice, Painful Stare, Challenge, nearly Full BAB, and Haste on command. It's not DPR Olympics, but it's enough to get the job done.

Two words: Spell resistance. Your character needs a lucky roll to make it through even basic SR.

"Sapped Magic: The hypnotic stare penalty also applies to the DCs of spells and spell-like abilities used by the target, and to the target’s spell resistance (if any)."

Mesmerists are pretty good at getting though any Spell resistance they encounter.

Interest you in a scary class?

Gotta love the vivisectionist. I have a dwarven Invulnerable Rager/Vivisectionist that is impossible to put down and can throw out shit loads of damage.

However, the class wouldn't fit her, flavour wise. The main reason I'm investing in mesmerist is for the stare and the tricks it has, it meshes very well with her background and kit.

Chameleon 1 ninja 3.

That technically isn't legal. Ninja is an archetype of rogue, therefor you can't multiclass them.

 

[Pervy]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

No, theres also ninja as a class, figured that was the one you used as you didn't clarify. also you can stack archetypes if they use different features.

Precise Strike, shit loads of crits, a few sneak attack dice, Painful Stare, Challenge, nearly Full BAB, and Haste on command. It's not DPR Olympics, but it's enough to get the job done.

Again, wheres your damage come from? You are level TWENTY you have little utility and your debuffs wont get past any SR, so you gotta offer the party some damage.

The character you made there is fine for solo-fluff adventures of up to mid tier difficulty, Its far from optimized.

 

[DaBomb]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

No, Ninja counts mostly as an archetype, just a very large one. It's still compatible with the base class' archetypes, but you can not take level in the base class, since they are the base class.

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Again, wheres your damage come from?

...I'm sorry? Did you literally ignore what I wrote? Everything I wrote deals damage and stacks up quite quickly. At level 5, a normal turn from me would be two attacks of 1d8+7+2d6. I don't know the recommenced DPR for character levels, but is that not good?

you have little utility

Okay, now i'm doubting if you even looked at the character sheet.

I have access to every ninja trick at level 3, I have a climb speed and scent at level 1, I can walk through walls whenever I want at level 5, I'm a bloody level 4 spellcaster, skill points out the ass, and not to mention the shit load of tricks the Mesmerist gets. Please, tell me what I can add to increase my utility? If you're going to point out flaws, please give me ways to fix them. That's all I ask.

your debuffs wont get past any SR

What kind of SR's can I expect at higher level play? Is there anyway I can surpass high SR's?

Also, I'd still love advice on the tremor sense thing, I haven't found anything to counter it.

Edit: Not trying to be cheeky, I just want advice on how to fix it.

 

[Zilrax]

Re: Trapped in the Underdark ~ Out of Character discussion

Frankly the problem isn;t even dpr or anything, it;s that at level 20 you;re just outclassed. Martials tend to struggle around this point because you're at the stage where it;s viable to face enemies you just can't latch to for reliable damage.

At this level you;re facing encounter's like

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So let's go down the list. If you cannot deal with: Two Solars, each with a full clerics worth of abilities, the ability to spam Summon Monster 7, and capable of casting Miracle and Wish, very potent abilities and tons of gear, you probably are not up to snuff.

That being said, a Solar is the single strongest monster in the core game. It is the pinnacle of oh fuck. I've seen them kill demon lords who are pathetic by comparison. This is the equivalent of a big boss for a level 20 party. And the tactics it can leverage are enormous.

But even ignoring that, once could still face truly vicious encounters such as a Demon Battallion.

CR 20 encounter = 307,200 XP
Succubus x 4 (CR 7) = 12,800 XP
Shadow Demon x 4 (CR 7) = 12,800 XP
Nabasu x 6 (CR 8) = 28,800 XP
Glabrezu x 2 (CR 13) = 51,200 XP
Marilith x 1 (CR 17) = 102,400 XP
Vrock x 15 (CR 9) = 96,000 XP
Dretch x 5 (CR 2) = 3,000 XP

The Marilith keeps at range and uses telekinesis to mess with people, disarming, tripping, or throwing things or grappling spellcasters lacking protections. Given an opening she'll grapple enemies into unconciousness, then move on, letting a succubus Coup them with vampiric touch for massive temp hp boosts. Bladebarrier is used to mess with enemy maneuvrability.

The Nabasu's keep at range and spam Enervation, especially at targets in heavy armor. When they run out of negative levels to fire off they use Telekinesis much like the Marilith does.

Succubi perform harrassment modes by spreading out and charm bombing enemies, couping with vampiric touch, and possibly dropping nets on people. they can go ethereal at will allowing them to get out of dodge or get into positions very easily. They especially target animal companions and summons with charm as they;re likely to fail. Worse, they open with attempting to Summon Babaus, flooding the field with cheap attackers who can spam Dispel Magic.

The Vrocks split up into three groups and start dancing while the other demons screen for them. If not disrupted they will unleash devastation that can murder parties in rapid order. Even if disrupted or the enemy is immune to electricity, they will switch to shriek bombing enemies, delivering many save or stuns that can easily murder a pc if they fail. And thats not counting being hit by tons of auto spore damages.

Glabresu's hang back and serve as spotters for the demons with their true sight. They have cl16 dispel magic letting them deal with any invisibility, and worse, they will often use it on enemies magic items with a good chance of suppressing it. They also have Reverse Gravity, which is a you lose if you cannot fly or teleport, and can Power Word Stun on particularily injured enemies. with 15ft reach they aren't too bad in melee either, able to play the kiting game. And they'll spam Unholy Blights to boot for continual aoe chip damage.

The Dretches are body blockers and spam Stinking Cloud, which demons are immune to, provides 20% concealment which messe sup sneak attacks, and has a 5% chance of taking a pc out of a fight. They'll also try to summon more dretches to boot.

The Shadow Demons meanwhile will try to possess enemies who've been heavily weakened by the Nabasu's or possess mounts/animal companions much like the succubi. They're basically invisible in the darkness at all times without actually being invisible, and they can spam telekenisis and illusion summons, and call up more friends. And as incorporeals they can easily get up close to squishier targets if needed.

So you have to be ready to deal with that as a fairly easy encounter.